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Incline Nexus Now Disallowing Creators To Delete Their Mods (Aug 5 Cutoff Date Passed)

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Just FYI to those interested: the publishing contracts for my short stories that were printed in anthologies gave the publisher the exclusive right to print and electronic (ebook) reproduction of my work for one year. After that, they retain the non-exclusive right, which means I can sell my story to other publishers, but it will be considered a "reprint" which is less valuable than a first print.

The publisher never loses the right to print my short story. If he runs out of stock of printed books, he can print more. Depending on the terms of the contract, that could also mean I get more money (if it's a revenue share contract rather than a single payment contract: when you sell a short story, it's either single payment, usually in cents-per-word, or it includes a small revenue share of 2% or something).

I cannot pull out of a contract once it is signed. The publisher can reprint my story however many times he fucking wants.

If the Nexus puts that right of distribution in perpetuity as a condition into their terms of use, and the user agrees to those terms, then the Nexus can keep distributing that mod for however long they please.

The same is true for stories you publish on websites. Even if it's a free website with no real terms and conditions, once you publish a story there you lose some of your rights. You can no longer sell first publishing rights for example, if you ever try to sell your story afterwards it would be as a reprint. Because it already counts as previously published, just because you uploaded it to a website.

Once something is out, it's out. You can't un-release something. Of course you retain the rights to re-release your thing elsewhere if you want, but you can't take it back.
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I not only allowed people to steal or modify my mods, but was desperately (as a player) hoping they would so I could absorb the by-product of what they made as a player myself.

AKA If I make a level.. or .. introduce some new story hook or something, playing through the thing I made is boring.. I know it inside and out. It's not fun to consume anymore. The goal is always to create something that saves other modders time or sparks something in them to improve it or add onto it so I can enjoy it back again.

This is the essence of what Modding used to and should always be, then it got poisoned by money and the mentally insane.

Healthy modding communities freely share their stuff among each other. Usually when modifying someone else's levels or campaign it's a matter of good courtesy to ask for permission beforehand, but that is usually granted.
Objects, sounds, animations, textures etc are usually freely shared, or even explicitly uploaded to websites intended to serve as resource centers for other modders.
There's the Thief Object Repository for example where objects and meshes for use in Thief fan missions are uploaded. One modder makes high quality custom objects, another modder uses them in his own mission, and so on and so forth.

Modding is a hobby that you do for free because you're passionate about the game.

Sane modders love it when others use their creations, because that means they get to play more stuff!
 
Vatnik Wumao
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I can sell my story to other publishers, but it will be considered a "reprint" which is less valuable than a first print.
Doesn't each publisher decide on the price of the book and on the percentage you get as an author? The princeps edition being more expensive is more of a snobbish collector thing, so I don't see how you'd be disadvantaged by going to a secondary publisher unless that somehow involves the original publisher also getting a cut.
 

Immortal

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I not only allowed people to steal or modify my mods, but was desperately (as a player) hoping they would so I could absorb the by-product of what they made as a player myself.

AKA If I make a level.. or .. introduce some new story hook or something, playing through the thing I made is boring.. I know it inside and out. It's not fun to consume anymore. The goal is always to create something that saves other modders time or sparks something in them to improve it or add onto it so I can enjoy it back again.

This is the essence of what Modding used to and should always be, then it got poisoned by money and the mentally insane.

Healthy modding communities freely share their stuff among each other. Usually when modifying someone else's levels or campaign it's a matter of good courtesy to ask for permission beforehand, but that is usually granted.
Objects, sounds, animations, textures etc are usually freely shared, or even explicitly uploaded to websites intended to serve as resource centers for other modders.
There's the Thief Object Repository for example where objects and meshes for use in Thief fan missions are uploaded. One modder makes high quality custom objects, another modder uses them in his own mission, and so on and so forth.

Modding is a hobby that you do for free because you're passionate about the game.

Sane modders love it when others use their creations, because that means they get to play more stuff!


I think my only stipulations for ripping off my mods were don't paywall your derivative and give me some form of credit or a link.
(The second one mostly as a marketing ploy so more people would see / use it)

All other requirements are IMO gate keeping bullshit that makes everyone's lives, both users and other modders, unnecessarily difficult.
 

Stokowski

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Hey, Immortal , Let me check my broom cupboard at see if I can find a shovel for you to dig yourself even deeper.

When I give you clear information you disregard it. :retarded:

When I frame the situation in simple words you mistake it. :retarded:

When I enter into Socratic method you ignore it. :retarded:

Stop being an idiot.

If the Nexus puts that right of distribution in perpetuity as a condition into their terms of use, and the user agrees to those terms, then the Nexus can keep distributing that mod for however long they please.
Wrong.

Once something is out, it's out. You can't un-release something. Of course you retain the rights to re-release your thing elsewhere if you want, but you can't take it back.
You can. It just either takes an army of lawyers, or a decent host in the first place.
 

Immortal

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Hey, Immortal , Let me check my broom cupboard at see if I can find a shovel for you to dig yourself even deeper.

When I give you clear information you disregard it. :retarded:

When I frame the situation in simple words you mistake it. :retarded:

When I enter into Socratic method you ignore it. :retarded:

Stop being an idiot.

"When I enter into the Socratic Method"

Pfbfbfbf.. :lol:
Don't go all super saiyan on me Socrates.

I'm just waiting for you to post literally any actual link to backup your bullshit other then "trust me bro, I'm important in music industry"
(I notice that Janitor line is really annoying you though.. lol)
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I can sell my story to other publishers, but it will be considered a "reprint" which is less valuable than a first print.
Doesn't each publisher decide on the price of the book and on the percentage you get as an author? The princeps edition being more expensive is more of a snobbish collector thing, so I don't see how you'd be disadvantaged by going to a secondary publisher unless that somehow involves the original publisher also getting a cut.

Ah but I'm talking about short stories comrade, not novels!

I sell them to an anthology or magazine, it gets printed in there along with half a dozen other stories, and when I want to sell the same story to a similar publication again it will count as a reprint. These publications prefer previously unpublished stories because that attracts more readers. The people who buy anthologies and magazines tend to read a lot of short stories so if yours was previously published, chances are some of the readers have already seen it and don't wanna buy the same thing twice.

I'm just waiting for you to post literally any actual link to backup your bullshit other then "trust me bro, I'm important in music industry"

For someone who works in some form of publishing industry, he has very little knowledge of how things work there.

There are bands who left their old record label and now publish independently, but the record label STILL has the publishing rights of their old albums and can re-issue them. There's no "taking back" in music either.
 

Spectacle

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There are bands who left their old record label and now publish independently, but the record label STILL has the publishing rights of their old albums and can re-issue them. There's no "taking back" in music either.
There's no "taking back" for us plebs you mean. The record companies will happily take back their music when the license expires, resulting in game developers having to patch the music out of digital versions of older games. :argh:
 

laclongquan

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I can sell my story to other publishers, but it will be considered a "reprint" which is less valuable than a first print.
Doesn't each publisher decide on the price of the book and on the percentage you get as an author? The princeps edition being more expensive is more of a snobbish collector thing, so I don't see how you'd be disadvantaged by going to a secondary publisher unless that somehow involves the original publisher also getting a cut.

Ah but I'm talking about short stories comrade, not novels!

I sell them to an anthology or magazine, it gets printed in there along with half a dozen other stories, and when I want to sell the same story to a similar publication again it will count as a reprint. These publications prefer previously unpublished stories because that attracts more readers. The people who buy anthologies and magazines tend to read a lot of short stories so if yours was previously published, chances are some of the readers have already seen it and don't wanna buy the same thing twice.

I'm just waiting for you to post literally any actual link to backup your bullshit other then "trust me bro, I'm important in music industry"

For someone who works in some form of publishing industry, he has very little knowledge of how things work there.

There are bands who left their old record label and now publish independently, but the record label STILL has the publishing rights of their old albums and can re-issue them. There's no "taking back" in music either.

Because in book and music industry, publishers hold too much power compared to what authors/performers can hold. If the balance of power tilt too much on one side, such "unbalanced" behaviours are totally the norm.

Dont misunderstand: Such things happen in games industry too. Publishing company through dev studio (a legal entity) hold exclusive rights to what's been produced by artists or coders.

And same thing happen to modders too. What's modders been producing, it's NOT theirs. Oh, the communities lie to themselves and each other in order to please the fragile ego of modders. It's most imperative to keep them producing, after all. What's a lie or two compared to that? The balance of power tilt a little too much into modders' side.
 

Immortal

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You know, hearing all these modders screaming and squirming about their legal rights gave me a flashback and I couldn't figure out why.
It recently just dawned on me though, this reminds me of the Paid Mods fiasco, specifically Chesko's Fishing mod.

TL;DR History
> Chesko releases a Fishing Mod on Steam Workshop for Money.
> His mod includes free assets from other creators most noticeable FNIS
> Fores (Creator of FNIS) Says paid mods are cancer and is against his wishes 100%
> Chesko immediately attempts to back out of the workshop and refund / delete his mods.


This little exchange further reinforces two things for me

1)
It once again draws the distinction between Two types of mod makers - 'The Talented & Passionate' vs 'The Mentally Unhinged Grifter'
  • Fores revolutionized Skyrim by making FNIS which basically allows for custom animations in a game that never supported them, without him Skyrim modding would be in the dark ages.
    • All his mods are open source, with wide open permissions and free for all - he is anti-paid mods.
  • Chesko on the other hand made a shitty fishing mod that was scrapped together with other peoples assets and tried to make bank off it - a soulless endeavour just as quickly forgotten.
    • The minute he could, he ripped down all his free mods and charged for them on steam, never asked for permission to use other peoples work.


2)
Chesko's interactions with Valves Legal Team when he wanted to delete his mod:
(Spoiler: Valves legal team flat out tell him to get fucked)

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...im-steam-workshop-mod-has-already-been-pulled
Unfortunately, Valve won't let the modder remove their own work from the Workshop entirely, as those who purchased it already still have access to it. Chesko would prefer to refund everyone and reclaim their work to distribute as they please.

"I was just contacted by Valve's lawyer. He stated that they will not remove the content unless 'legally compelled to do so', and that they will make the file visible only to currently paid users," Chesko said. "I am beside myself with anger right now as they try to tell me what I can do with my own content. The copyright situation with Art of the Catch is shades of grey, but in Arissa 2.0's case, it's black and white; that's 100 per cent mine and Griefmyst's work, and I should be able to dictate its distribution if I so choose. Unbelievable."

Given this whole unfortunate ordeal, Chesko has chosen to leave the Steam Workshop completely. "With the complete lack of moderation control over the hundreds of spam and attack messages I have received on Steam and off, I am making the decision to leave the curated Workshop behind," he lamented. "I will be refunding all PayPal donations that have occurred today and yesterday."

Hidden but not deleted files.. refusing requests for removal.. And where have we heard that type of rant before..
HMMMMM....

Spoilers for anyone who isn't paying attention - Modders don't know fucking shit about law.


EDIT

Missed another funny quote from that article:

We have requested comment from Valve on why it won't allow modders to remove their own work entirely, even if they issue refunds. We'll let you know what the company says should it issue a response.

Spoiler #2: Their legal team said get fucked.
 
Last edited:

whydoibother

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You know, hearing all these modders screaming and squirming about their legal rights gave me a flashback and I couldn't figure out why.

Gave me a flashback to how Twitter won't delete my account.
When you get suspended on Twitter, you can't do any account changes. Including deleting the account. That's right, getting banned prevents you from deleting your account. Writing to Twitter and citing EU law results in a polite email (after 89 days and 23 hours wait) that they will not do anything. Literally won't remove my data, that I own by law, from their website, and blocked me from using the "delete" feature that non-suspended users have access to.

I don't see how this is a good thing, regardless of all the posts calling modders drama queens and so on. They do own the stuff they made, and they should have the ability to remove it from the website. People who already downloaded it can keep it, its local files.
 

NJClaw

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They do own the stuff they made, and they should have the ability to remove it from the website.
There are two hundred other websites where they can do that. It's not a situation like with social media websites where if you don't like how Twitter and Facebook handle your data you are pretty much fucked and have no other alternatives.

Nexus wants to offer a service: reliable collections of mods that you can trust to work regardless of modders' dramas and bad days. To do that, they need to be able to use uploaded content forever. If modders aren't ok with this, they can just move to Moddb.
 

lightbane

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Hidden but not deleted files.. refusing requests for removal.. And where have we heard that type of rant before..
Did he end up really refund those that asked for one, or did he screech at them and pay nothing instead?
 

mogwaimon

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You know, hearing all these modders screaming and squirming about their legal rights gave me a flashback and I couldn't figure out why.

Gave me a flashback to how Twitter won't delete my account.
When you get suspended on Twitter, you can't do any account changes. Including deleting the account. That's right, getting banned prevents you from deleting your account. Writing to Twitter and citing EU law results in a polite email (after 89 days and 23 hours wait) that they will not do anything. Literally won't remove my data, that I own by law, from their website, and blocked me from using the "delete" feature that non-suspended users have access to.

I don't see how this is a good thing, regardless of all the posts calling modders drama queens and so on. They do own the stuff they made, and they should have the ability to remove it from the website. People who already downloaded it can keep it, its local files.

They own 'part' of the stuff they made, mods are derivative works by nature and of course they don't own EVERYTHING, unlike you with your Twitter posts, presumably. Still I'm all for retaining creative rights and all that but we're talking about distribution rights and according to the new agreement with Nexus, they will gain distribution rights in perpetuity if you use their service. They have given modders 30 days in which to decide if they want to participate in this new agreement or not. If the modders do not agree with them they have every right to upload their mods anywhere else just as modders have been doing since long before the Nexus existed. No one is twisting their arms on this. If this were the ONLY place to get mods, then I'd understand the uproar, but it isn't...it's only the latest and most popular mainstream modding site around. So the modders screeching about this are the ones that only want that sweet 'modder cred' because if they upload their work anywhere else it won't get as many views as on the Nexus, and that's the whole crux of the matter because those who want to create and mod stuff will do it regardless of whether they can upload to the Nexus or have to go to ModDB or wherever.

Besides, you can look to the modding communities for Doom, Unreal Tournament, Duke Nukem, and other old school shooters for reasons why this is a good thing. There are user levels that are like 20+ years old hanging out in the wad databases for those games that have been preserved thanks to the efforts of the community which have been essential in keeping things afloat, ESPECIALLY in the case of Unreal Tournament which could have lost almost all their mods when Gamespy went down, taking PlanetUnreal with it if there hadn't been a number of mirrors indiscriminately archiving things.
 

Unkillable Cat

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It once again draws the distinction between Two types of mod makers - 'The Talented & Passionate' vs 'The Mentally Unhinged Grifter'

I have some bad news for you: There is just the one type, which is an amalgamation of those two you mentioned.

All modders are mentally unhinged. There's a very small minority of them who can keep it (somewhat) in check, but that's the best you can hope for.
 

laclongquan

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You know, hearing all these modders screaming and squirming about their legal rights gave me a flashback and I couldn't figure out why.

Gave me a flashback to how Twitter won't delete my account.
When you get suspended on Twitter, you can't do any account changes. Including deleting the account. That's right, getting banned prevents you from deleting your account. Writing to Twitter and citing EU law results in a polite email (after 89 days and 23 hours wait) that they will not do anything. Literally won't remove my data, that I own by law, from their website, and blocked me from using the "delete" feature that non-suspended users have access to.

I don't see how this is a good thing, regardless of all the posts calling modders drama queens and so on. They do own the stuff they made, and they should have the ability to remove it from the website. People who already downloaded it can keep it, its local files.

They own 'part' of the stuff they made, mods are derivative works by nature and of course they don't own EVERYTHING, unlike you with your Twitter posts, presumably. Still I'm all for retaining creative rights and all that but we're talking about distribution rights and according to the new agreement with Nexus, they will gain distribution rights in perpetuity if you use their service. They have given modders 30 days in which to decide if they want to participate in this new agreement or not. If the modders do not agree with them they have every right to upload their mods anywhere else just as modders have been doing since long before the Nexus existed. No one is twisting their arms on this. If this were the ONLY place to get mods, then I'd understand the uproar, but it isn't...it's only the latest and most popular mainstream modding site around. So the modders screeching about this are the ones that only want that sweet 'modder cred' because if they upload their work anywhere else it won't get as many views as on the Nexus, and that's the whole crux of the matter because those who want to create and mod stuff will do it regardless of whether they can upload to the Nexus or have to go to ModDB or wherever.

Besides, you can look to the modding communities for Doom, Unreal Tournament, Duke Nukem, and other old school shooters for reasons why this is a good thing. There are user levels that are like 20+ years old hanging out in the wad databases for those games that have been preserved thanks to the efforts of the community which have been essential in keeping things afloat, ESPECIALLY in the case of Unreal Tournament which could have lost almost all their mods when Gamespy went down, taking PlanetUnreal with it if there hadn't been a number of mirrors indiscriminately archiving things.

The own thing is a laughing matter. The licenses each game make you read and click on before playing make sure that all the related codings, graphic assets down to the kitchen sink is property of whoever own the game.

Anything you modders make? That's not yours. That's not yours even from day one. The fact that you dont understand what it is that you just click on doesnt mean you own anything.

Derivative work? Pretty words to assuage the terrible fragile ego of modders. Derivative works dont mean you own anything either.
 
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TumblingTorin

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I'm basing this on my personal experience but I don't think most user are gonna notice if a modder leaves because of all of this.

I did not know about this thing the Nexus is doing until recently when I was checking on this new mod that required a another mod to use that was no longer available.
This made me check on the pages of the PF WotR mods I downloaded to see if they put something on their about moving their mods to somewhere else.
I never checked those pages before because it didn't have that "Update Available" text on it. Lo and behold, a few of them are now only on Github.

If I didn't accidentally found out about this drama, I would of been forever ignorant.

Most of these mod authors just put an update text on the description page about what the nexus is doing or whatever, but barely anyone will know because unless there is an Update Available text on it, no one is going to bother looking at the page. Updating the description page does not tell people that something changed from seeing the thumbnail. I'm not going to autsicly check each mod if they've been abandon or moving to a different site and most people aren't either.
If these modders wanted people to know, they should of updated their mods AND THEN added in the description that they are protesting the nexus. Then people would be noticing.
Because a lot of these modders are just updating the description page or hiding their mods, most people probably think these mods just aren't being updated anymore. I did, and sure a lot of people do too.

These modders did not think these things through.
 

0wca

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All modders are mentally unhinged.

I'm a modder and I find your statement wanting, sir.

iu
 

Immortal

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After Stokowski was laughed off the thread for making shit arguments with zero proof - he has instead abandoned replying and just resorted to retardo'ing every post I make. I always wanted a butt hurt stalker of my very own.

Living rent free in your head. :lol:

Stokowski rated your post retadred in the thread Who Broke The Website.
50 minutes ago
Stokowski
Stokowski rated your post retadred in the thread Who Broke The Website.
50 minutes ago
Stokowski
Stokowski rated your post retadred in the thread InclineNexus Now Disallowing Creators To Delete Their Mods.
52 minutes ago
Stokowski
Stokowski rated your post retadred in the thread InclineNexus Now Disallowing Creators To Delete Their Mods.
 

Stokowski

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Oh look, the cheerleader's arrived. :hahano:
 

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