Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Nioh 2

somerandomdude

Educated
Joined
May 26, 2022
Messages
187
ITSUMADE! The funniest thing is when you run a corruption/yokai build, and use Dark Detonation yourself to trigger all the pools he created, basically taking 50-100% of his health with his own traps.

3 cats also works for any build, but that's good to know if you run a corruption build.

You're supposedly able to knock him off the perch when he's up there, but I've had extremely inconsistent results with doing that. Sometimes he just has hyper armor and isn't going down no matter what.
 

somerandomdude

Educated
Joined
May 26, 2022
Messages
187
If those special grabs are a problem, the ones you gotta burst counter, ippon datara (the hammer bro) allows you to avoid those, if like me you're not skilled enough at the game to reliably counter those.
 

Dhaze

Scholar
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
Messages
250
Location
Belgium
ITSUMADE! The funniest thing is when you run a corruption/yokai build, and use Dark Detonation yourself to trigger all the pools he created, basically taking 50-100% of his health with his own traps.

3 cats also works for any build, but that's good to know if you run a corruption build.

You're supposedly able to knock him off the perch when he's up there, but I've had extremely inconsistent results with doing that. Sometimes he just has hyper armor and isn't going down no matter what.

Oh no, my bad. I thought you were talking about Itsumade (that bird guy), but since you mention a perch I'm guessing you're actually talking about Minamoto no Yoshitsune (this bird guy).

And yes, he can absolutely be knocked down from his perch if you do enough Ki damage. If you're in Dream Of The Samurai or Dream Of The Strong, the Gust Talisman (which reflects projectiles fired at you) is a very effective tool; starting from Dream Of The Demon though, Yoshitsune's ranged attack will do too much damage for the talisman to be of much use.

Some Yokai skills to consider using when he's on his perch:

- Wind Blast, from Fuki (arguably the best for this situation, though only obtainable starting in the last DLC)
- Rising Winds, from Kamaitachi (second best, I'd say)
- Monkey Dance, from Enki
- Brutal Charge, from Gozuki
- Ubume's Cry, from Ubume (if you're right next to Yoshitsune, otherwise don't try it)
- Tentacle Storm, from Lady Osakabe
- Metal Crusher, from Kinki (like Fuki, only obtainable after the fight against Yoshitsune, thus only useful from NG+)
 

somerandomdude

Educated
Joined
May 26, 2022
Messages
187
Yeah, it's Minamoto for sure. Hard to miss that boss, because it was the toughest boss in the game for me. That bird fuck took at least 12 attempts before I learned that clay bell of reckoning was a thing. I asked on some forums if there was an easy way to cheese him, just to get it over with and someone said the same easy way you cheese every other boss, with yokai cats using the clay bell of reckoning, I initially thought they were trolling the shit out of me, but nope, it's 100% legit.
 

Sjukob

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2015
Messages
1,709
The missions get more annoying as you go further, for sure. The Kamaitachi one had a lot of narrow paths where you could easily fall into water, works especially great if you have to fight tengu, because they more around so much. Saito Yoshitatso one is basically the same only that there are cyclops instead, oh and the last shrine is half the level away from the boss, because "HA HA HA". The overfapped soldier nonsense got old the first time they started placing them on highgrounds, but they are not going to stop, aren't they?
 

Punished Rean

Ask me about Sen no Kiseki
Patron
Joined
Nov 14, 2020
Messages
1,152
Strap Yourselves In
NIOH 2 CANNOT BE REASONABLY CRITICIZED WHEN ELVEN RINGS ARE FLOATING OUT IN THE AIR

It's just always felt nice and fair. It's one of those tough games that rewards the player getting better rather than just beating things by getting new equipment and levelz, it's almost like a fighting game.
 

arekks

Literate
Joined
May 1, 2022
Messages
13
I wanted to replay this with a different weapon, I went odachi first time (big weapons ftw) so I thought I'd go dual swords this time and they feel so fucking gay to use. My DPS feels fucked and my attacks have no impact or weight and I'm just dancing around like a fairy doing chip damage. ALSO completely useless against humans especially in groups. Maybe I'll stick it out or maybe I'll pick something else

Game pwns though. It does a good job particularly of keeping you occupied and engaged with mechanical breadth vs Elder Rings where you spent twenty hours running between points of interest on an open world like some lost dog
 

Sjukob

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2015
Messages
1,709
What's up with the revenants? I've just reached the third region and the revenants here are level 90+, while my character is level 68. Their ki and ki regen values seem to be insane, you can not pressure them due to that, my combos that deplete 80% or more ki out of even bigger yokai barely work here. You do a combo on them, they block, you're low on ki and before you can even flux (I don't even wait for the perfect pulse, lol) they immediately attack, you're fatigued - dead. Not all of them like that, but encounters like that have become more common, dual swords and fists revenanants have been the most annoying so far. From what I've seen, later human bosses also have the same infalted ki problem. I end up cheesing them with kusarigama pull or ninjutsu stuff.
 

arekks

Literate
Joined
May 1, 2022
Messages
13
What's up with the revenants? I've just reached the third region and the revenants here are level 90+, while my character is level 68. Their ki and ki regen values seem to be insane, you can not pressure them due to that, my combos that deplete 80% or more ki out of even bigger yokai barely work here. You do a combo on them, they block, you're low on ki and before you can even flux (I don't even wait for the perfect pulse, lol) they immediately attack, you're fatigued - dead. Not all of them like that, but encounters like that have become more common, dual swords and fists revenanants have been the most annoying so far. From what I've seen, later human bosses also have the same infalted ki problem. I end up cheesing them with kusarigama pull or ninjutsu stuff.

Revenants always seem higher-levelled than me by a significant margin. I'm not sure if most players grind (ugh) or if there's some other factor at play. Sometimes I can beat them easily and sometimes they kill me very quickly... I don't think it was like this on my first playthrough when the game released. I feel like they were more equal to me back then. But maybe that's because I was using the odachi which is pretty good against humans.

One thing I really appreciate about revenants as compared to Dark Souls invasions is that they're opt-in, and so you basically just fight them around checkpoints. There's an unpredictable threat to the Dark Souls invasion mechanic that is sort of appealing in terms of keeping the player nervous... but in the mechanical sense it's obviously nonsense that randomly fucks the player.
 

Sjukob

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2015
Messages
1,709
So far Enenra and Magara were the best boss fights the game had to offer, the worst one was definitely Tatarimokke, I don't think there's a single positive thing I can say about that encounter. I haven't tried fighting Toshimitsu yet, because I've heard that he's way overtuned for a level 65 mission, so I'll save him for later.

Can anybody lend me a hand and tell which onmyo spells stay relevant up until the very end game? I kind of don't want to rely on stuff that falls off hard later. Obviously everything that buffs you or imbues your weapons should be good, but what about debuffs? Does stuff like sloth, weakness, lifesteal, devigorate etc stay strong later on?

Revenants always seem higher-levelled than me by a significant margin. I'm not sure if most players grind (ugh) or if there's some other factor at play. Sometimes I can beat them easily and sometimes they kill me very quickly... I don't think it was like this on my first playthrough when the game released. I feel like they were more equal to me back then. But maybe that's because I was using the odachi which is pretty good against humans.
It seems like advanced humanoids get some crazy buffs to their ki, it becomes especially annoying when it's applied to heavy armor revenants that are also built around having big ki reserves. Kusarigama high stance light attack into knee kick drains about 60-80% of yokai bosses ki, depending on how much they have it, but against heavy armor revenants it does about 50% of their ki bar at the very best and then they regen it in 1-1.5 seconds.
 
Last edited:

Dhaze

Scholar
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
Messages
250
Location
Belgium
Can anybody lend me a hand and tell which onmyo spells stay relevant up until the very end game? I kind of don't want to rely on stuff that falls off hard later. Obviously everything that buffs you or imbues your weapons should be good, but what about debuffs? Does stuff like sloth, weakness, lifesteal, devigorate etc stay strong later on?

The majority of what Onmyo has to offer stays relevant to the very end.

– Firestop/Lightningstop/Waterstop Talismans can be staples against many bosses. In particular, Lightningstop when fighting against the Lightning Gods Of Yomi can be of dramatic help.
– Fireshot/Lightningshot/Watershot Talismans increasingly need the backing of a solid build to be good offensive options, but in any case they are and remain one the quickest, most effective way to apply their corresponding ailment. If you build it right, you can fight entire maps and bosses using only these Shots, never using your weapon.
– Fire/Lightning/Water Shikigami are situational, but in the end requires a build entirely devoted to Onmyo in order to get good damage out of them.
– Explosive Shot/Geyser/Thunderstorm Talismans can be very good both for damage and applying ailments, but it can prove very difficult to get all the hits from Geyser and Thunderstorm to connect
– Fire/Lightning/Water Familiar Talismans can be used rather easily to steamroll many enemies and bosses. But I hate them; it's braindead gameplay and the visual clutter they add to an already visually busy game annoys me to no end.
– Devigorate Talisman is pretty much useless.
– Archyokai Talisman is either the most useless one or the most useful one. Its usefulness remains equal throughout the game, and depends entirely on your build. Almost nobody uses it, but in Dream Of The Nioh one of my builds needed it imperatively to get things started under certain conditions.
– Pleiades Talisman, well, same as the Archyokai one. If you use Yokai Shift a lot, it can integrated to great effect into a build. Otherwise, don't bother.
– Cutting Blast Talisman and Shockwave Talisman are meh to begin with and become worse still later on. Can be used somewhat effectively against human enemies, but it's finicky and too much effort for what they bring to the table.
– Weakness Talisman has some fuckery about it because for some reasons it gets overwritten by other debuffs like Saturation, but can be a solid way to increase your damage.
– Barrier Talisman is fantastic and stays that way. Huge bonus to Ki recovery and absolute invulnerability to some swarm attacks used by the likes of Tatarimokke and Itsumade. Though it makes you automatically dispel any Yokai pool you approach, so that can ruin certain builds.
– Resistance Talisman is meh, in my opinion. Later on, enemies tend to apply so much of something in one go that even with huge resistances and this talisman you'll suffer the ailment if you get hit.
– Sensory Overload Talisman can be awesome, but is highly, highly situational and build-dependent.
– Oasis Talisman is mostly used in co-op or if you want to heal an npc. Situational and gimmicky, but why not.
– Rejuvenation is great in the beginning, great in the end, and great at any point between.
– Sloth Talisman can be very useful of course, but as you progress through the NG+ cycles, enemies—bosses especially—become more and more resistant to it.
– Protection Talisman can be a lifesaver if you don't get hit a lot but do get hit hard by one huge physical attack or another, but the protection it affords actually depends on your onmyo power, and I would definitely say that it's usefulness decreases as you progress through NG+ cycles.
– Steel Talisman is great if you get slapped around a lot. Arguably better than the Protection Talisman, and remains very good to the end.
– Blessed Bolt Talisman remain as useful as it is in the beginning, which is to say not a whole lot. It has its uses, but isn't fantastic by any means.
– Life Leech Talisman can be awesome if properly integrated into a build. Actually I'd say it's usefulness increases the further you go into the game if your build can use it well.
– Extraction Talisman is, funnily enough, better than the Life Leech Talisman when it comes to healing you, since at the end of the game it's very easy to get the 'Auto-Life Recovery (Amrita Absorption)' on a piece of equipment
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
5,401
Location
Lusitânia
Why does this thread only have 43 pages and is dead, while Dragon's Dogma's, Dark Souls 3 and Eldern Ring's are in the hunderds and still keep going?

Because Team Ninja games have always been niche titles that only really attract the more mechanically hardcore action game players
While From and Capcom are both two of the most popular Japanese game companies, whose games have some appeal to general audiences

So far the thing I have the most issues with is how much commitment the player must make.
...
This very often leads to scenarios where I simply can not afford to go ham on enemies and have to play cautiously.

That is literally the point of high attack commitment and stamina management
To punish players who make the mistake of trying to engage the combat like some kind of cuh-razy spectacle fighter
 

Sjukob

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2015
Messages
1,709
This is not DMC
Oh

Dude morphs into a demon and flies around the whole area shitting out swords out of his ass, overgrown pigeon gets hit in the nuts three hundred times per second, some old guy gets his whole body depilated via judgement cut end ... Now excuse me, while I machine gun out quickdraws by abusing ranged weapons and then tea bag whatever gets left of the corpses.

But alright, to give you a serious answer, it's not a question of whether it works or not, but rather of what I belive in. And I think, that any action game combat system, that uses high commitment and stamina and works well, could've been made even better if it wasn't built around such restrictions in the first place.
 

Sjukob

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2015
Messages
1,709
there is no such thing as "cheese" in Nioh.
Yeah... I feel like I'm at the point where playing the game feels tiresome. Tatarimokke was bad, but Gyuki was so awful it could actually rival DMC1 second fight with griffon, I have no idea how that shit even made it into release version of the game. Now I'm fighting Nobunaga who can randomly super armor out of any attack you do, he can do it even while getting smashed by multi hit attacks, like kusarigama high stance light attack, there isn't even a set number of hits he allows you to land on him, he just does it at random, and of course his counterattack is instant and hits you for half of your health bar or more, feels like degenerate version of Azai fight, so poke, poke and retreat. Don't say a word about Toshimitsu, I'll check up on him this week.

You know, when I play some difficult wads for Doom and die repeteadly at the same spot I don't feel mad, I guess it's due to the fact that the rules are clearly defined in Doom and nobody breaks them all of the sudden, I mean an archvile doesn't suddenly blast you even if you break his line of sight, right? Nioh is different, here a large number of fights go: "HA HA HA" and boil down to "keep dying until you learn the gimmick". I've seen some people complain that the game does not feature enough enemy variety, I feel like I can't relate to that at all, I'm only half way through the game and I feel the opposite way, there's just way too many. Due to the said gameplay formula and the absurd damage enemies deal, it gets tiresome learning their attack and behaviour patterns.

Anyway, there's a thing I don't understand, what is the point of ninjutsu feathers? The casting animation is so slow that you can never afford to cast it without spending anima to cancel out of it, but even with canceling it still is very slow, because you can't cancel out immediately and even after canceling you will still be stuck in whatever yokai skill you did, even burst counters don't recover that quickly. It actually takes less time to execute a fully charged quickdraw than to cast one of the feathers. And then they do no damage unless the enemy is out of ki, and because casts are so slow you have to anticipate the moment you deplete enemy's ki and start casting immediatelly or else you will miss the moment. And lastly, it's actually easy to miss with them, you can randomly knock an enemy out of AoE, they can randomly twitch out of it, like a good number of enemies get knocked back when you deplete their ki, or something else can go wrong. And funny thing is, you can deal massive damage to an out of ki enemy by using reaper or something, on humanoid enemies I do a grab into crimson flurry, it hits them in the back for full damage very reliably, and unlike feathers it's very easy to land those. And if you want some quick damage on a standing enemy you can just throw a bomb, they do full damage regardless of enemy status. So what's the point of using feathers?
 
Last edited:

Sjukob

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2015
Messages
1,709
Anyway, there's a thing I don't understand, what is the point of ninjutsu feathers? The casting animation is so slow that you can never afford to cast it without spending anima to cancel out of it, but even with canceling it still is very slow, because you can't cancel out immediately and even after canceling you will still be stuck in whatever yokai skill you did, even burst counters don't recover that quickly. It actually takes less time to execute a fully charged quickdraw than to cast one of the feathers. And then they do no damage unless the enemy is out of ki, and because casts are so slow you have to anticipate the moment you deplete enemy's ki and start casting immediatelly or else you will miss the moment. And lastly, it's actually easy to miss with them, you can randomly knock an enemy out of AoE, they can randomly twitch out of it, like a good number of enemies get knocked back when you deplete their ki, or something else can go wrong. And funny thing is, you can deal massive damage to an out of ki enemy by using reaper or something, on humanoid enemies I do a grab into crimson flurry, it hits them in the back for full damage very reliably, and unlike feathers it's very easy to land those. And if you want some quick damage on a standing enemy you can just throw a bomb, they do full damage regardless of enemy status. So what's the point of using feathers?
Nevermind, I figured it out.
 

Dhaze

Scholar
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
Messages
250
Location
Belgium
(...) and of course his counterattack is instant and hits you for half of your health bar or more (...)

The damage in Nioh 1 was insane compared to Nioh 2, you would have hated the first game something fierce.

You know, when I play some difficult wads for Doom and die repeteadly at the same spot I don't feel mad, I guess it's due to the fact that the rules are clearly defined in Doom and nobody breaks them all of the sudden (...)
(...) Nioh is different, here a large number of fights go: "HA HA HA" and boil down to "keep dying until you learn the gimmick".

The rules are clearly defined and there is no gimmick. Off the top of my head I only remember one attack that clearly breaks the rules.

It's gonna sound like I'm an asshole saying 'git gud' but, well, you really do need to learn how to play this game. This isn't Devil Gay Cry or Bayonettard (sorry, couldn't resist). This is Nioh—and Nioh plays like Nioh.

Nobunaga? Ok, here's two quick videos. I haven't played in months so I'm rusty as all hell, but that'll have to do. Done in Dream Of The Nioh, using one weapon and two yokai skills; no elixir; no onmyo; no ninjutsu; no yokai shift; no gimmick or trick or finger-breaking gamepad manipulations or indeed anything extraordinary. Gear and stats are shown at the end of the second video (gear-only in the first, since I completely forgot about the rest).

It's a perfectly fine fight. Nothing 'degenerate' about it.

(apologies for 720p, but 1080p would mean too huge a file to upload on my connection)



 

Silverfish

Arbiter
Joined
Dec 4, 2019
Messages
1,373
It's gonna sound like I'm an asshole saying 'git gud' but, well, you really do need to learn how to play this game. This isn't Devil Gay Cry or Bayonettard (sorry, couldn't resist). This is Nioh—and Nioh plays like Nioh.

Yeah, you need to "learn to play" the game that can be broken in half by throwing shurikens. Nioh's good, but let's not make it more than it is.
 

Dhaze

Scholar
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
Messages
250
Location
Belgium
And that changes what I've said how? Every single game in existence can be broken in half by doing some shit or another. That's not some kind of revelation.

I'm answering a guy who whines that a boss is hard and bullshit and wa wa wa what's the gimmick. He complains of enemies who can randomly super armor and that he has to commit to an attack and there's no cancelling out of a combo or something. And I've tried to explain to him that he himself can have super armor at will, and he can in fact cancel out of any combo at any time. I've provided fucking lists, I've explained that there's not trick, there's no gimmick, he just needs to use what the game gives him and stop bitching about it.

So yeah, deep down, he does need to learn how to play this game. Or start playing pachinko or some shit.

/e: Imagine being a developer. You work for years on something like Nioh 2, creating all those mechanics, all those systems. Then players complain that they actually have to use them. Fucking hell, I'd gut myself.
 
Last edited:

Dhaze

Scholar
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
Messages
250
Location
Belgium
Oh fucking hell, not this retarded excuse of an argument. Everything needs to be learned. Playing Super Mario takes learning and skill. Not the same kind required by I Wanna Be The Guy or Guilty Gear, but skill nonetheless.

Because, what? You don't need to learn how to Ki Pulse at the exact right time? You don't need to learn how to use the Yokai skills that make you ungrabable to counter enemy grabs? You don't need to learn how to do a combo? You don't need to learn how to dodge?
 

Silverfish

Arbiter
Joined
Dec 4, 2019
Messages
1,373
Except for dodging, not really. Nioh, to its credit, seems to encourage players to be as overpowered as possible.
 

Sjukob

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2015
Messages
1,709
Dhaze
Thanks dude, I appreciate that you recorded videos for me specifically, although I had already beaten Nobunaga even before I posted that comment. I just switched to katana and used mid stance stabs to poke him to death.

I like how Nioh can cause butthurt even without you having to commit to playing it, the ass melting power of this game is pretty immense. Also, why do you wear heavy armor, do you not like getting one shot or something?
 

Dhaze

Scholar
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
Messages
250
Location
Belgium
Sorry if I snapped guys. The vet had to euthanize my elderly cat, and it's the fucking shittiest day amongst all fucking shitty days. I'm gonna go stunlock Saito Toshimitsu to death with a Scampuss build, that seems fitting.

Except for dodging, not really. Nioh, to its credit, seems to encourage players to be as overpowered as possible.

What differentiates dodging from the rest? I'm guessing timing? Is that what qualifies as 'needing to be learned'? If so, then nearly every action in Nioh 2 requires learning.

I can pancake Oda Nobunaga with Crashing Waves (you can see me do it repeatedly in the two videos), but I can't do it when he's in Living Weapon mode, nor during a lot of his attacks, nor starting from neutral. I can only do it at specific times, when he's in a specific state. So I have to learn that, right? I have to learn the timing—or was I born with this knowledge somehow? I also have to learn the correct spacing, since I need to land right on top of him when using Crashing Waves, otherwise I just push Oda back.

What mad manner of definition do you confer to 'learning', that only dodging would require learning in Nioh 2, while all the rest does not?
 
Last edited:

Silverfish

Arbiter
Joined
Dec 4, 2019
Messages
1,373
Sorry if I snapped guys. The vet had to euthanize my elderly cat, and it's the fucking shittiest day amongst all fucking shitty days.

Damn, sorry dude.

What differentiates dodging from the rest? I'm guessing timing? Is that what qualifies as 'needing to be learned'? If so, then nearly every action in Nioh 2 requires learning.

The other examples you offered were ki pulses (stamina management can be brute-forced with sacred water and / or heroic investment into courage), yokai skills (very useful, but can never be essential since the devs have no way of knowing when players will have certain skills equipped or even unlocked) and combos (which can be entirely side-stepped).

I can pancake Oda Nobunaga with Crashing Waves (you can see me do it repeatedly in the two videos), but I can't do it when he's in Living Weapon mode, nor during a lot of his attacks, nor starting from neutral. I can only do it at specific times, when he's in a specific state. So I have to learn that, right?

You could, or you could just hang back and pelt him with kunai and poison shurikens (or rakansen coins if you like funny, useless shit like I do).

What mad manner of definition do you confer to 'learning', that only dodging would require learning in Nioh 2, while all the rest does not?

I suppose my definition of the things you "need" to learn are the things that can't reasonably be circumvented.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Top Bottom