No game brought more decline than WoW. Change my mind!!

[Cryomancer]

Some people blame consoles, and is undeniable that consoles brought decline to SP RPG's, however, WoW brought decline to RPG'S IN GENERAL. Tabletop, SP and MP. Thanks to wow, people see RPG's as gear farming, cooldown managing games. What WoW brought to the RPG market?

• Normalization of ludonarrative dissonance
• Normalization of cooldown
• Balance cultism + Accessibility cultism
• Normalization of carnavalesque armor
• Normalization of "roles" DPS/Tank/Healer
• Bastardization of attributes and other RPG mechanics
• Repetitiveness of combat.
• The eternal decline of mmo market
• The huge decline on sp market
• An atempt to create massive decline on TT market(4e)

And what WoW brought to the general gaming genre?

• Popularization of "games as services"
• Death of the RTS genre
• Popularization of "sub fee"
• (...)

I will not detail much the damage that wow dealt to games as a whole since it is a RPG forum, but just look to 90s mmos you had Ultima Online, Dark Sun Online : Crimson Sands and the Neverwinter AOL(1991), all games very close to the TT game. The devs copy wow everywhere.

• Kotor 1 = 3.5e like mechanics
• Kotor 2 = 3.5e like mechanics
• SWTOR = "Generic WoW clone : Star Wars edition"
• NWN1 = 3.5e like mechanics
• NWN2 = 3.5e like mechanics
• Neverwinter mmo = "Generic WoW clone : D&D edition"

If wasn't by WoW and the mmo market was untainted, i an pretty sure that instead of this "generic wow clones" we would get 2e or 3.5e like MP games and SP games. Look to BioWare, BG2 was a masterpiece. DA:O was OK and after DA:O they only released trash games like Anthem and DA:I. On tabletop market, D&D 4e took heavily inspirations by wow. You can see by the nonsensical game mechanics, artstyle and even some skills with "cooldowns"(recharge). If wasen't by Pathfinder, the TT market would be dead now or heavily damaged with far less games and popularity. And D&D would be dead.

MrBtongue has a good video about UNruining mmos. We need more emergent gameplay in SP games too.

 

[Bester]

instead of this "generic wow clones" we would get 2e or 3.5e like MP games. Look to BioWare, BG2 was a masterpiece

Ah yes, the multiplayer classic called Baldur's Gate 2.

D&D 4e took heavily inspirations by wow. You can see by the nonsensical game mechanics, artstyle and even some skills with "cooldowns"(recharge).

So it's not WOTC who's to blame for the bad 4th edition, it's... Blizzard. Yup, sounds about right. Please come with us...

 

[Hellraiser]

You had me until you wrote BG2 was a masterpiece.

 

[Reinhardt]

Can you be a DRAGON in WoW?

 

[Wysardry]

WoW bough decline to RPG'S IN GENERAL. Tabletop, SP and MP.

Nice try, Todd.

 

[Zer0wing]

WoW bough decline to RPG'S IN GENERAL. Tabletop, SP and MP

How about no, you filthy n'wah.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

No game bough more decline than WoW. Change my mind!!

Dragon Quest, Wing Commander and Diablo say hi. Also Baldur's Gate.

 

[Malamert]

Can you be a DRAGON in WoW?

Sort of. There are toys that allow you to take the appearance of a dragon.

 

[TheHeroOfTime]

What

 

[Cryomancer]

So it's not WOTC who's to blame for the bad 4th edition, it's... Blizzard. Yup, sounds about right. Please come with us...

WotC made 4 mistakes due WoW inspiration.

You had me until you wrote BG2 was a masterpiece.

Is not a masterpiece?

The codex puts it as the 3rd most popular game here https://rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=11193

 

[King Crispy]

Victor, I think the word you're looking for is "brought".

Anyway, I happen to agree. WoW was originally viewed as general decline, the same as Diablo originally was. In the years since, both have been accepted into the mainstream gaming scene, even looked upon as "classics", but both franchises contributed to the decline in my book.

 

[Hellraiser]

You had me until you wrote BG2 was a masterpiece.

Is not a masterpiece?

The codex puts it as the 3rd most popular game here https://rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=11193

Poll is from 2019, biodrone and bethtard refugees ruined the codex over the years. Ten years ago Arcanum and Fallout 2 being behind BG2 would be grounds for lynching.

 

[Yosharian]

Not really, it's the games industry that mindlessly churns out copies of the latest (profitable) trends that is to blame for the decline.

And that industry is a reflection of who we are as a race, we are all, ultimately, selfish bastards only interested in our own profits so it's no wonder our industries reflect that.

So actually, when you look at it, we are responsible for the decline.

But then again, evolution is the one who made us what we are today, so another way of looking at it is that life itself is responsible for the decline.

Maybe decline is the natural state of things...

 

[Background Character]

And D&D would be dead.

Maybe that wouldn't be so bad

 

[Zer0wing]

Not really, it's the games industry that mindlessly churns out copies of the latest (profitable) trends that is to blame for the decline.

And that industry is a reflection of who we are as a race, we are all, ultimately, selfish bastards only interested in our own profits so it's no wonder our industries reflect that.

So actually, when you look at it, we are responsible for the decline.

But then again, evolution is the one who made us what we are today, so another way of looking at it is that life itself is responsible for the decline.

Maybe decline is the natural state of things...

Of course bastard only sees the bastards in other people as if the world is his ugly echo chamber and as such, seeks the indecency in others. Same as truly decent man sees and seeks decency in others. Both are gravely wrong because society is a multi-layered construct. Not understanding this is a trap and for idealistic bloomers because idealists tend to operate in boolean logic.

Thing is, GaaS bullshit didn't come into being trendy bullshit business practice until very late and shaming WoW for asking a monthly fee is indecent and bastard-detecting. Why not shame every MMO for this then, even the good ones?

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

I like Diablo, but its effects on the genre have been horrible.
Even much maligned WoW wouldn't been possible without it.

 

[Cryomancer]

Victor, I think the word you're looking for is "brought".

Thanks. English is not my native language.

Poll is from 2019, biodrone and bethtard refugees ruined the codex over the years. Ten years ago Arcanum and Fallout 2 being behind BG2 would be grounds for lynching.

I agree that this games are better than BG2. But say that BG2 is not a masterpiece is wrong.

 

[Vapid]

WoW is responsible for the popularity of pauldroncore and its ubiquity in modern fantasy, so... yeah. The mere fact that Chinks gobble it up with such gusto is evidence enough of how much decline it is.

 

[agris]

User name checks out.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

Don't forget the "WoW artstyle" that makes everything look cartoony and whimsical. You know it's like some gay Disney thing where you expect the characters to erupt into a musical performance at any point.

Take that quirky shit out and bring back AD&D era art.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Change my mind!!

[/quote]

 

[Daemongar]

The decline wasn't WoW. All the features named were present in earlier MMRPGs. I played Dark Age of Camelot but almost all these features were in Everquest and stuff like that as well. The decline wasn't WoW, but the generation who bought it and bought into it's culture. I'm talking about millennials. The kinds that use terms like ludonarrative dissonance, and post blogs. Those assholes.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

I don't know how WoW brought about the normalization of cooldowns when they, along with a lot of the stuff WoW does, (or did, I haven't really seen it since like 2005 or 2006) are just things WoW pulled from Diablo 2. WoW always reminded me of a MMO version of a Diablo game. It was like Blizzard ripped off Blizzard North, slapped a Warcraft skin on it, and badly adapted Diablo's isometric combat system into a 3D environment with a third person view.

I've got to imagine that pissed off the Blizzard North guys. Blizzard took what they did and made a Warcraft game with it, that became one of the biggest games around, and then shut them down a year later. That's pretty fucked up.

 

[Cryomancer]

Everyone mentioning BG, is only cuz you hate RtWP?

Take that quirky shit out and bring back AD&D era art.

Yep.

But some people justify the new artstyle as "they are avoiding a new satanic panic"

millennials(...) use terms like ludonarrative dissonance, and post blogs. Those assholes.

gamingghd is not a millenial and has a good video about it

WoW pulled from Diablo 2.

What? D2 din't even had CDs on the launch. It was added on future updates and the combat, gameplay and progression on both games are EXTREMELY different. WoW is just a simplification of everquest.

I like Diablo, but its effects on the genre have been horrible.

Diablo affected mostly Diablo clones ie - DarkSTone, Fate : Undiscovered realms and so on.

And is not as if we din't had ultra action focused ARPGs before Diablo.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

What? The only time I ever played Diablo 2 was when it came out, and it had cooldowns; the game itself called it something else, but they're cooldowns. WoW is a take on Diablo 2. It took it's skill tree, and there was some class that took the Paladin's auras if I'm remembering right. It's Diablo MMO but with Warcraft, and simpler, and in 3D.

Never played Everquest. The only other MMO I ever played, besides like a night of WoW at a friends house, was late '90s Ultima Online.