NWN OC plot was cut, possibly due to publisher meddling

[Erebus]

BG2 was a fun game whereas NWN OC was an utterly mediocre one. Sure, there are worse games (POR 2 comes to mind), but has anyone actually played NWN OC twice ? I had to cheat by giving myself a level 20 PC to finish it even once.

 

[CarnivalBizarre]

I played NWN for hundreds of hours and had tons of fun, mostly with user made modules, but the OC and expansions was ok as well. BG was crap in comparison.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

I don't think any of this cut content could have changed the underlying problem with NWN OC: the core gameplay, for single player, was absolute shit and the designers of the original campaign were completely phoning it in.

D&D is meant to be party based, and one dude plus an uncontrollable hireling does not constitute a party. Oh right, you could have an animal companion or familiar. Yay. Even getting two dudes that you could fully control would have been a huge improvement in the gameplay department, though a fuller party would have been preferable. I don't mind real time with pause (in fact, I prefer it in 2nd Edition), but it got very awkward in 3rd Edition with attacks of opportunity and the very different way round order is dealt with. It didn't translate particularly well here, and I think most of the RTwP hate stems from the gross incompatibility with many of the rules featured in certain systems like 3rd Edition D&D.

Even with the core fundamentals shored up, the game would still be a tough work to salvage. Hardly any of the content was interesting. Sure, they had some interesting premises, like that doomed town forever stuck in one moment of time, or where you can encounter the Old Lizard Dudes early on in a deep ruin...but they never went anywhere. All the dungeons were the same stock corridors, pasted together and populated with tons of the same, boring monsters. Set piece encounters failed to provide any challenge. Running into three liches, with a level 2 fighter/level 8 druid dood seemed like a hopeless situation. Nope. Just the same old buff up and smack down plus throw in a few fire spells here and there. Totally lame compared to BG2 lich fights. Of course these weak set pieces are probably a consequence of the "module" style of design; everything in the module has to be able to be handled by the player character at the time they enter it, and as a big AAA RPG, they had to account for a lot of kinds of players. Still, doesn't excuse the terribly boring design of every set piece besides the final boss, which wasn't much better, being a terribly silly gimmick (stil, I'll take 4th-wall breaking gimmicks over dungeons filled with 40 of the same goddamn things and some generic loot).

 

[Volourn]

" Running into three liches, with a level 2 fighter/level 8 druid"

Your entire post is an epic FAIL; but this line takes the fukkin' cake since it doesn't set in reality. You do NOt face 3 liches at level 10. FFS

 

[Excommunicator]

This story is obviously far superior to the one they used but the problem is these sorts of things always sound a lot better written in the idealised, romantic form of someone trying to put into words the great game they have conceived in their head (as opposed to facing the realities and shortcomings of implementation). It is almost misleading to read a design document like this and expect it to reflect the game even when they get to implement it all, because a lot of that colour and enthusiasm of the writer often fails to get fundamentally translated into the game by the team. It almost never matches up.

Speaking of NWN though, I have always considered the dislike for NWN to be very disproportionate around here. I played the OC for NWN (and NWN2, but didn't play any of the expansions for either NWN1 or NWN2 so can't speak for any of that), and my experience wasn't bad enough to not complete the game. I did get to play a number of mods and multiplayer offerings as well, and I was impressed enough to start work on a major mod of my own at one point although I eventually lost it in a computer changeover.

These are the main criticisms that I would condemn the game for:
- Lots of trash mobs, constantly throughout the game
- Acts separate the game world into a far more linear sections than were necessary
- Maps often structured to artificially prolong the time spent in them by lots of meaningless winding paths and the aforementioned trash mobs
- A doubly derivative plot based on both an ancient evil and collecting the macguffins
- Characters (both party members and story characters) that were boring and undeveloped
- A game that seemed to be made for parties but which gave you no control over companions, and only let you have 1 + a pet
- Pretty lacklustre item hoarding system (which isn't something I look for in an RPG anyway)
- Tileset system greatly hindered the creativity and variation in the structure of maps


And these are the things that I would praise it for (purely in order of what comes to mind):
+ Very nice soundtrack with the important decision to make each track thematic to a particular event or location to prevent staleness
+ Very good atmospheric sounds & sound effects
+ Quality portraits
+ Tilesets limited in options but visually evocative (especially when used with interesting fog & lighting settings)
+ Character creation sequence was very substantial (far better than most other RPGs)
+ Level-ups that gave a real sense of reward
+ Overall good voice acting
+ In-between-act storytelling attempts were visually good (but didn't have the quality story they needed)
+ Impressive spellcaster combat (my playthrough was a solo wizard)
+ Good computer translation of the tabletop rules
+ Excellent construction set with fantastic offerings for mods and multiplayer games
+ The excellent DM character system (reminded me of GM powers in UO)

Hearing how badly people rail on the game makes me think that maybe it was the solo wizard playthrough that saved it for me, as I know I would have struggled through combat with a non-spellcaster. I also played NWN long before BG2 so in that sense I had quite a different perspective to most around here. Still most of the criticisms that apply to it are things that can be applied to almost every RPG I can think of and I've always found it very difficult to criticise a game in one breath due mainly to high expectations and then look at another and ignore those same flaws just because of a few standout elements or some celebrity designer.

 

[FeelTheRads]

+ Overall good voice acting

Do you remember those reptiloids or whatever the fuck they were? The ones going "sssss" every other word? Those are among the only things I remember from the OC and that's because they had the WORST voice acting I've ever heard.

 

[cutterjohn]

This is horrible! I feel like I've been robbed.

Just imagine NWNs story if it had been uncut.






Or let's not.

It's even more horrible since NWN was NEVER supposed to have a campaign shipped with it to begin with, but they realized that that was assininely stupid.

Gold box games are still my gold standard for AD&D games as they most closely follow the actual game rules rather than trying to do something moronic like forcing a realtime engine on a turn based system.

 

[Sceptic]

Hearing how badly people rail on the game makes me think that maybe it was the solo wizard playthrough that saved it for me, as I know I would have struggled through combat with a non-spellcaster.

I played through with a Sorcerer (and quickly ditched the annoying-as-fuck henchmen) and almost died of boredom going through the OC. Even today it's the only game that I can think of that I really regret playing all the way to the end. I can't say I disagree with some of your positives, it's just that... none of them really matter I feel, in the big picture. I mean sure portraits look nice, sure the music is good (until you've heard the 3 or 4 combat tunes for the 1000th time each), but none of this can any way help save a boring game. And even for half the positives you couldn't not list their flip side that makes them hardly positives (the extremely limited tilesets, the interact visuals ruined by the poor storytelling), and I really, really don't agree with "good computer translation of the rules". 3E was pretty weak until 3.5 fixed all its stupidities, but even as a 3E adaptation NWN1 was pretty poor. And let's face it, at its heart the game was nothing but combat after combat after combat, using a slow-as-fuck clusterfuck of a combat system with no interesting encounter design to speak of.

It's not so much that it was inferior to BG2 (which it was), just that it was so dull. I blame the engine for the most part. I tried to go back and play some of the modules later on, and Darkness Over Daggerford actually addressed most of my issues with the base game, yet I still had to struggle to put up with the engine's clunkiness and the feeling that everything is so, so slow. Which is weird, because I didn't get this feeling when I played NWN2.

 

[Volourn]

"Gold box games are still my gold standard for AD&D games as they most closely follow the actual game"

No, they don't.


P.S. NWN's voice acting is pretty damn good. Exco actually makes some goodc riticisms - most of which I criticized as well despite people harping on the bullshitz myth that I believe the OC was perfect.

LMFAO

 

[Excommunicator]

Do you remember those reptiloids or whatever the fuck they were? The ones going "sssss" every other word? Those are among the only things I remember from the OC and that's because they had the WORST voice acting I've ever heard.

No I don't really remember them but that kind of cheesy melodrama is never good, this is true. The narrator and many of the other main characters however, were good. The bulk of the game, certainly not everyone.

I played through with a Sorcerer (and quickly ditched the annoying-as-fuck henchmen) and almost died of boredom going through the OC. Even today it's the only game that I can think of that I really regret playing all the way to the end.
I can't say I disagree with some of your positives, it's just that... none of them really matter I feel, in the big picture.

Well that's your prerogative but to me the points do matter.

I mean sure portraits look nice, sure the music is good (until you've heard the 3 or 4 combat tunes for the 1000th time each), but none of this can any way help save a boring game. And even for half the positives you couldn't not list their flip side that makes them hardly positives (the extremely limited tilesets, the interact visuals ruined by the poor storytelling)

Combat music was too much, yes. I never like combat music unless the game has such intense combat that it just blends into the SFX (Dawn of War games come to mind). Tilesets were limited but really not so much more than any other similar game as to say "extremely", take NWN2 for example.

and I really, really don't agree with "good computer translation of the rules". 3E was pretty weak until 3.5 fixed all its stupidities, but even as a 3E adaptation NWN1 was pretty poor.

I don't have a lot of knowledge of the specifics of D&D rules so I can concede you that point. Although feel free to mention some games that implement them better and give some specific examples of how they are done better, because I don't think I can recall any of these games doing it much better than any of the others. Gold Box games I don't have much experience with. Obviously the realtime aspect, but I don't think that contradicted the rules as much as it made them less effective.

And let's face it, at its heart the game was nothing but combat after combat after combat, using a slow-as-fuck clusterfuck of a combat system with no interesting encounter design to speak of.

All the D&D games and most games in general are nothing but combat after combat IMO. I can't think of more than a couple of encounters in all the RPGs that I've played that were particularly interesting. Dark Sun comes to mind, some of the IWD2 battles were fun to cheese as a solo char, but that's about it.

It's not so much that it was inferior to BG2 (which it was), just that it was so dull.

I found a lot of BG2 just as "dull" as many parts of NWN. Same with NWN2, PST, IWD. I fail to see any major differences, and you haven't convinced me of anything by using the word "dull".

I blame the engine for the most part. I tried to go back and play some of the modules later on, and Darkness Over Daggerford actually addressed most of my issues with the base game, yet I still had to struggle to put up with the engine's clunkiness and the feeling that everything is so, so slow. Which is weird, because I didn't get this feeling when I played NWN2.

It is clunky and slow, but not nearly as bad as NWN 2 IMO. I much preferred my experience with NWN1 over NWN2, which felt like a cheaper version overall except for some elements such as the castle building, character management and character development which were all good, but didn't save it for me. Visuals were poorer, tilesets felt even more limited, music was not as good, worse camera, engine was more clunky and slower to play. Horrible end dungeon that IMO puts to shame any of the NWN fighting sequences. Nothing could convince me that the NWN2 OC is significantly better than the NWN1 OC.

Anyway we can compare these games like this as much as we want but really it doesn't matter. Putting aside the emotionality of the experiences you had, I don't really see huge differences in what they offer. They have mild advantages in certain areas over one another, but they mostly all carry the same flaws.

 

[Albers]

I thought Bioware admitted their focus during development was on the toolset, DM client and multi-player aspects of the game. The campaign was basically thrown together to show off what the toolset could do.

I was under that impression when I bought the game. Thought the OC was shit. Didn't care. Had a blast playing classic D&D module conversions with friends online.

 

[Volourn]

LONG LIVE NWN! DEATH TO UNBELIEVERS!

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Possibly the most annoying NPC in the history of RPG's.

 

[sea]

To be honest she's not really a horrible, horrible character, she just has really terrible dialogue and one of the most annoying actresses ever.

 

[Ion Prothon II]

Lol what.
Dude, if she's the most annoying virtual whore in cRPGs, then you've propably just awakened from coma.
Jerro fucking granddaugther from NWN2 was far, far worse. Or Elanee the creepy stalker, if we're at it. Not even mention the shitload of retarded NPCs from later BW games.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Same with NWN2, PST, IWD.

Wait, you're saying that the NWN OC in on the same level with that on Torment?

Also, Aribeth is a fucking annoying retarded cunt. Even that picture alone makes me wanna punch the monitor.

 

[861129]

Jerro fucking granddaugther from NWN2 was far, far worse.

 

[Volourn]

Aribeth is awesome. Any who disagree are simply wrong. WRONG I SAY.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Emo paladin obsessed with her duty. SO ORIGINAL AND DEEP.

 

[Texas Red]

The story of the OC always seemed to be a play on the real life Reptilian Shapeshifters. Amulets? More like implants.

 

[sea]

Lol what.
Dude, if she's the most annoying virtual whore in cRPGs, then you've propably just awakened from coma.
Jerro fucking granddaugther from NWN2 was far, far worse. Or Elanee the creepy stalker, if we're at it. Not even mention the shitload of retarded NPCs from later BW games.

I'd take all of those over Aribeth, if only because she is basically the ultimate walking stereotype and doesn't even have a personality or decent voice actress to make up for it.

 

[Excommunicator]

Wait, you're saying that the NWN OC in on the same level with that on Torment?

No, but for example unimaginative combat encounters in all of these games basically amount to the same boring experiences, played in much the same ways. A lot of it is content that you simply tolerate for the other parts of the game. The "dull" content

 

[Falkner]

I've never gotten far into the NWN OC, so could you tell me what it offers to counter the dull parts? Torment is the ultimate storyfag experience, what does NWN have? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Nothing. I kept playing NWN OC 'till the end hoping to see the light, but no. It's a dark shade of brown all the way from beginning to end.

It was about the time I stopped reading mainstream gaming magazines. NWN was hyped up so incredibly before it was released, and given 9/10, 10/10 perfect scores, but was a steaming turd of a SP game.

Now, I'm aware there was a MP and it rocked, apparently...

 

[Roguey]

[Aribeth image]

Three belts, ridiculously ornamental sword, spikes... I didn't pay much attention to NWN, so I didn't know Bioware was making JRPG-inspired designs over ten years ago. I guess the BGs really are the only things they've made with passable art direction.