Preview NWN2 ganderings at NWN2 News

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Neverwinter Nights 2

<a href="http://www.nwn2news.net/">NWN2 News</a> has an outline form <a href="http://www.nwn2news.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1144">preview</a> of <a href="http://www.atari.com/nwn2">Neverwinter Nights 2</a> based around a demonstration of the game they witnessed at one of those goofy trade shows. They mention feats, prestige classes, evil, and several other things like crafting:
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<blockquote>All the crafting from NWN1 is still in, but generally vastly improved. Obviously, a lot more was added and it looks like we'll be able to customize armor pieces and such during the process. I did ask about "spell level" items and Josh agreed a wand of magic missiles with a level 3 casting of it on a wizard of 15th level is kind of silly. He's going to look into it. The big thing that will likely cause a stink is there will be no xp loss during item creation - just gold. This may need be already known, I don't remember. Evidently testers were not liking xp costs at all. Crafting is done at crafting stations throughout the game.</blockquote>
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I'm not sure I liked the XP thing either as a rule as a concept when I heard about it. I still agree with the point of it, though. Gold is pretty easy to obtain and players probably should have a greater limit than just gold when making magic items.
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Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.shacknews.com">Shack News</A>

 

[Nightjed]

the xp cost is important to keep the item making under control, it worked fine in toee because good magic items were rare or even impossible to find, the problem in nwn was that the items sucked mayor ass, you had to expend a LOT of xp on them and you usually could find better items for free in trash cans (or buy them for 10 gc)

i think they should keep the xp cost but reduce it (maybe link it to a "world magic rarity/strength" setting in the module ?, the more common the magic in the world the cheaper the item making, random treasure and shop wares could be linked to this as well, it would help a lot to homogenize difficulty levels and char balance though modules)

 

[Jora]

the xp cost is important to keep the item making under control

The problem with it is that it doesn't make sense. Why would Jack the Sorcerer become worse at hitting people with his staff if he crafted something?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

That's my problem with it. XP isn't something you buy an item with. You can buy skills, attributes, and things like that - but not items. Experience is a measure of how much you've learned, your memory baggage. It should only translate in to something that makes the character better personally, not buy a new sword.

I don't really like it as a concept, but I agree that there should be a heavier restriction on crafting than just gold *unless* gold is damned hard to obtain. I'd much rather have a component system where you have to find the basic junk bits to make an item than to just spend experience.

 

[Spazmo]

Actually, you can't get worse at swinging your staff by making one since you're not allowed to spend so much XP on an item that you'd lose a level, which is intended to stop lower-level characters from spending all their XP on crafting one uber item.

And frankly, the rationale does make sense. So I can use my XP to gain a level and say get +1 to attack rolls. Or, I can spend the same XP to make a sword that gives me +1 to attack rolls. Well, not the *same* XP, the costs are different, but whatever.

And in any case, balance trumps realism/plausibility any day of the week.

EDIT: And this thing in NWN2 pretty much breaks item crafting. Unless, that is, they're really ultra stingy on gold, but it's Forgotten Realms, so that's unlikely. Now spellcasters will be able to crap out endless piles of magic items and only have to worry about otherwise worthless gold. Hell, after the 30 second resting in NWN, I wouldn't even be surprised if they cut the days and weeks needed to make items.

 

[HotSnack]

Spending XP for craftworks does make sense in a way, as that person is supposedly pooling all their time into making said item. It's a bit funny in NWN's case though, as it's bolting a point-buy system onto a levelling one.

The only problem I have with such a system is that most of the time you're spending the exact same amount of XP to make an item, when you would think you should spend less as the process feels more familiar to you. But as Spazmo has said, 'tis all in the name of balance.

 

[Drakron]

XP cost is to prevent wizards and clerics turn into magic items factories and so force the party to spend the gold on NPCs.

Another thing, in 3rd Ed. you CANNOT loose a level so with a XP cost it adds a barrier of how much can be created by a player.

Add downtime and item creation because uncommon as it sould.

 

[Vault Dweller]

the xp cost is important to keep the item making under control

The problem with it is that it doesn't make sense. Why would Jack the Sorcerer become worse at hitting people with his staff if he crafted something?

As Spazmo pointed, your sorcerer wouldn't lose any abilities, but his progress would be slowed, since he spent less time practicing his spellcraft or what have you, and more time working on that staff of uberness.

 

[Drakron]

2nd Ed item creation did not take XP but Constitution points.

 

[galsiah]

That's my problem with it. XP isn't something you buy an item with. You can buy skills, attributes, and things like that - but not items. Experience is a measure of how much you've learned, your memory baggage. It should only translate in to something that makes the character better personally, not buy a new sword.

I'm not keen on the idea sense-wise either.
However, I'd say that as soon as you opt for a xp level based system, you've lost all grip on good sense. If the xp cost ends up giving better balance, then that's more important.

I'd rather they at least looked at a third solution - i.e. giving item crafting some cost more significant than gold, but more sensible than xp. I'd rather they balanced the economy to a degree too.
Still, if it's a simple good-sense vs good-balance trade-off, I'm for good balance.

EDIT:

2nd Ed item creation did not take XP but Constitution points.

That makes more sense IMO. I've never been keen on the (A)D&D attribute effects system though - i.e. that there's hardly a difference between 9 and 13, but 16 to 18 is a huge step. Losing Con points isn't a great cost if it's not going to make a real difference to many characters.

 

[Jora]

As Spazmo pointed, your sorcerer wouldn't lose any abilities, but his progress would be slowed, since he spent less time practicing his spellcraft or what have you, and more time working on that staff of uberness.

But his progress should be slowed by having him put more skill points into crafting (which would prevent him from becoming as good at casting as he otherwise could) not by stealing the experience he already had for a mysterious reason that works only as a balancing rule but not as a convincing phenomenon in the game world.

 

[Ryuken]

Wouldn't it be more convenient then to give the creator of an item less abilities for a certain while, in a sense that you can't be that big powerful caster and a super crafter at the same time? Like a month or a week with less spells slots and such during and after the crafting (you need time to get back into it so to speak)? Assuming that the player can't sleep for weeks on end without suffering consequences of course (or that the developers have made sleeping a bit more complicated than just sitting on the ground for a while).

 

[elander_]

If there is a golden rule about crpgs i would say that don't mess with the players xp is one of them. There must be other more imaginative ways to deal with crafting a staff. The problem with NWN2 system may be (im not a NWN2 expert) that xp is credited by monster kill and the way the monster is killed isn't taken in consideration. If it was then the game could give less xp for a kill using a spell cast from a wand than from a spell cast from the wizard itself. This is not an easy problem to solve.

 

[Spazmo]

The plausible alternative I'd see to an XP cost would be permanentl loss of spell slots, which would really, really suck and would basically prevent most people from bothering with crafting items. Temporarily removing spell slots is right out, too, because that's just a PITA to keep track of, especially in the kind of fluid timeframe P&P games take place in.

And yeah, a CRPG can keep track of time really well, and yeah, it's a limitation that you don't have to deal with in a CRPG, but then CRPGs shouldn't really be using P&P rulesets in the first place.

XP cost is what works. It's simple in terms of bookkeeping and it's got the right amount of weight behind it to make crafting items something you don't take lightly.

As for not messing with the player's XP, they're not. It's your choice to craft items, your choice to take the XP hit.

Items are damn powerful. Most PCs will earn them by risking their lives fighting monsters. Making the cost of item creation a slap on the wrist undermines the value of magic items, so there has to be something to remind crafters that creating an item ain't easy. An XP cost is a simple and effective way of doing this.

 

[Andyman Messiah]

Evil rules!
* Evil isn't just brute force. Lying, bluffing, manipulation often has benefits that are over and above being some girly paladin about things; "good is its own reward" - suckers!. Of course, good has benefits, too. Evil, however, won't be getting the shaft. According to Chris it's "very satisfying"

Yay?

 

[Vault Dweller]

But his progress should be slowed by having him put more skill points into crafting...

That, of course, is the best option, but in the absence of it, the XP cost is still a good way to keep crafting in check. Overall, I think we all agree that gold-based crafting in CRPGs (i.e. in games where the biggest problem is finding something to spend your vast fortune on) is lame.

... not by stealing the experience he already had for a mysterious reason that works only as a balancing rule but not as a convincing phenomenon in the game world.

That depends on what XPs represent (in your mind). If it's a meter of your potential progress in a specific area, than any slowdowns due to you focusing on something else are very reasonable.

 

[Drakron]

That makes more sense IMO. I've never been keen on the (A)D&D attribute effects system though - i.e. that there's hardly a difference between 9 and 13, but 16 to 18 is a huge step. Losing Con points isn't a great cost if it's not going to make a real difference to many characters.

Makes sense?

So why did Ed Greenwood have to create several reasons why so many magic items were around, Netheril was one of the things that existed to explain tha amounts of magic items that were around.

The whole thing was stupid, the cost was the same for a +5 sword of instant slaying or a +1 mace.

It became clear there was no way for a natural market of magic items to exist because wizards were not keen on the creation of magical items so we had to come up with idiotic "ancient civilizations" to produce the amount of magic items that were lying around.

That is why the whole constitution loss was removed in 3rd edit (there is still attribute damage) and replace with XP loss that at least worked to explain the amount of magic items existence without "the lost civilization of mass magic item production" excuses we had to come up before.

 

[elander_]

As for not messing with the player's XP, they're not. It's your choice to craft items, your choice to take the XP hit.

The problem with that solution is that it feels artificial in the game world. What is their problem with this anyway. Are they afraid that crafting will compete directly with spell casting? Then limit crafting some other way or make it both useful but in different circunstances.

If they let the player put any high level spell into a wand without any restrictions then theres no reasing for casting spells anymore.

 

[Volourn]

"The problem with it is that it doesn't make sense. Why would Jack the Sorcerer become worse at hitting people with his staff if he crafted something?"

You are an idiot. I wish people would know what they are fucking talking about before posting. As Spaz and others have pointed out, you can't lose a level when crafting items and losing xp, so it is IMPOSSIBLE to get 'weaker' or lose a level. Dumbass.

On top of this, there's another reason why xp is used in crafting - it's the way items are enspelled. It's what empowers the magic. The crafter empowers the item with magic using a part of themselves. XP is the symbol of this.

That's why this is a BAD idea no matter how you slice it. Like Spaz says, this pretty much free game for more ph@t lewt.


" it worked fine in toee because good magic items were rare or even impossible to find"

More stupdiity. TOEE had lots of ph@t lewt to find. More than NWN, that's for sure, considering it was upt o level 10 not 20. NWN didn't have +6 ability boosters like TOEE. Not to mention, +3 weapons + abilities when your max level is 10. Not to mention, the almost unlimited supply of super duper elven chain.


"you usually could find better items for free in trash cans (or buy them for 10 gc)"

Stop lying.



All in all, this is a poor choice by Obsidian. And, I worry about a QA team for a D&D game that can't handle xp for crafting.

 

[KingComradeFan]

dude volourn just shut the fuck up seriosuly you'e poissing me off to no end with your bullshir and shit oh god it's annyoing and makes me want to KILL YOU u know it's true so just shut up and go back to fucking rapeing dead dogs like the good lil' candadian whore u r shut it fag

 

[Volourn]

"dude volourn just shut the fuck up seriosuly you'e poissing me off to no end with your bullshir and shit oh god it's annyoing and makes me want to KILL YOU u know it's true so just shut up and go back to fucking rapeing dead dogs like the good lil' candadian whore u r shut it fag"

Bring. It. On.

 

[KingComradeFan]

you wanna fucking fight, you little douche? come to my house as 36 Almeida Road, Montpelier Vermont and we'll see how's the fucking tough guy after i rip off your face and fuck your brain until it's mushy mush at the end of my rock hard cock and then maybe you'll mom will finally get the abortion she deserves via me raping your face u little fucking cunt fuck u u think your'e tough you're fucking nothing suck a dick and die jewbag

 

[Volourn]

King Comrade would be so proud.

As for the address thing. Nice try; but I've been waiting for someone to back up their threats and come to my palce and kill me. Remember, you threatened me so come follow through on your threat.

You know where I live so don't be shy.

 

[KingComradeFan]

ur the pussy here why don't we fight it like men and fucking just kill each other on the border that way both proud americans such as myself can laugh as you pussy canadians and your outrageously gayt mounites (get it? they mount COCK) can both get fucked up the ass ten ways to sunday by me and my mountain goat frank

 

[Volourn]

You are the one who wants to kill me. So, do it. Please, quick, if you dare. Or, I'll die from boredom due to your idle threats whichever comes first. Don't take too long or someone else will get here first.

P.S. Say hi to your cowardly alternate who can't threaten others thoroughly instead hiding behind an alternate.


R00fles!