Preview NWN2 ganderings at NWN2 News

[KingComradeFan]

I AM NOT AN ALT SO FUCK YOU I HATE YOU LET'S FUCKING DO IT LIKE FUCKING MEN U LITTLE FUCKING GIRL I HATE U

 

[Jason]

"you're gonna wish it was nam all over again"

Sounds strangely familiar. Who could it be?

 

[KingComradeFan]

YOUR WORST FUCKING NIGHTMARE FAGGOT GO WRITE SOME MORE "NEWS" (MORE LIKE OLDS, RIGHT? ) FOR FAGGOTCANCER

 

[Volourn]

"I AM NOT AN ALT SO FUCK YOU I HATE YOU LET'S FUCKING DO IT LIKE FUCKING MEN U LITTLE FUCKING GIRL I HATE U"

Did I upset you? It's ok. You aren't alone.

 

[KingComradeFan]

i upset your mom last night after i came all over her faec and ruined her makeup u should know u were jerking off in the closet

 

[Jora]

That depends on what XPs represent (in your mind). If it's a meter of your potential progress in a specific area, than any slowdowns due to you focusing on something else are very reasonable.

Yes, that does make some sense. It's still definitely not how I would want it to be implemented.

I wish people would know what they are talking about before posting. As Spaz and others have pointed out, you can't lose a level when crafting items and losing xp, so it is IMPOSSIBLE to get 'weaker' or lose a level.

If I were a couple of points away from a level up and suddenly lost those points, I would become less experienced in whatever I do. In other words, I would become weaker. However, I'm not using the definition VD gave.

 

[Volourn]

"If I were a couple of points away from a level up and suddenly lost those points, I would become less experienced in whatever I do. In other words, I would become weaker. However, I'm not using the definition VD gave."

Ok then, that's fair enough. However, as I pointed out,t he xp cost is ebcause youa re using your personal power (experience points) to empower the items with magical energies. That's the in game reason for the xp cost. The other, of course, is a game mechanic reason. Those two reasons together make xp cost for crafting items rather logical.



"u should know u were jerking off in the closet"

Yes, it was. And, it was a great show! Thanks for the memories@

 

[KingComradeFan]

ur welcome asshole maybe now u can get laid by paying off some sick homo outside the dairy queen to suck your small chink dick by trading him ur splloooge u collected in jar and then farting on his fucking face cuz ur a fucking sick oand like that shit i hope your die from a veneral disease or some sorty fuck u i hate U SHUT UP

 

[Jora]

However, as I pointed out,t he xp cost is ebcause youa re using your personal power (experience points) to empower the items with magical energies. That's the in game reason for the xp cost.

Yeah, I know. It just sounds wrong to me. Experience doesn't feel the right way to represent the character's self.

 

[elander_]

I was reading the nwn2 wiki about the craft skill:

http://www.nwn2wiki.org/Craft

Theres something interesting about crafting:

 Core of the crafting system is done via script and you can add your own recipes

If this becomes screwed it's allways possible for some fan to fix it. That doesn't make me happy but it's something.

Opportunities to find recipes and materials in the course of your adventures. Players who focus on crafting can make cool things that are better than anything they'll find in a dungeon or on a rack at a store.

If you are good at crafting then it makes sense that you can create better items than those that can be found in stores. The receipt thing looks a lot like Arcanum schematics. It worked well in Arcanum and they didn't have to screw with the xp so it can work well in nwn2 too with a proper game balance. For example a spell cast for crafting purposes must be castable 4 levels above. Meaning the player needs to have more inteligent to craft a wand than to cast a spell and the player won't be able to enchant a wand with his most potent spells making spell casting still very useful.

I think this is just a mater a style. I don't see Tim Cain for example messing with xp to balance a game. He was allways able to balance his crpgs very well using only his bag of old tricks he applied to different char systems in the different games he worked. But never resorting to drastic things like messing with xp.

 

[Azarkon]

There are quite a few things that do no tmake sense with an exp penalty for item creation. However, it's interesting that such a penalty would be derived from D&D PnP rules, because the main issues listed here are actually CRPG issues, not PnP issues:

1. Inability to correctly present passing of time

2. Monty-haul gameplay

Explanation for #1: The problem with using time as a factor in an item's construction in a CRPG is that the player can rest indefinitely with the click of a button, while the rest of the world stays static. So with time-based crafting, he can queue up 200 staves of the magi, rest for a couple hundred years, and then be ready to own.

But any game where in-game time has a direct relationship with real-time (ie MMOs and, for a good DM, PnP games) can easily get around #1 via cooldowns. Want to limit the rate of magic items entering into the world and make wizards think twice before crafting something? Simple - slap a cooldown or an actual working-time on item creation, and voila. One major magic item / real-life month = mages will think twice before crafting items.

Explanation for #2: Any game where gold is not the equivalent of toilet paper is not likely to have problems with item crafting. If , in the course of the game, the player is only allowed to accumulate enough gold for, say, ten wands of fireballs or five longs word +1 or whatever, then the game has no need to have exp penalties.

Kinda makes the PnP ruleset seem awfully retarded if, in spite of not having these two problems, it *still* utilizes the exp penalty system. This is particular the case when you consider the *effects* of the exp penalty system, which encourages the following scenario:

"Bob wants to craft a wand of fireballs. It requires X exp. So, Bob figures, I can get X exp by killing Y number of orcs or doing Z number of quests. So let me do that, craft my wand, and then repeat ad nauseum until I've got the number of wands I want."

This is a perfectly logical and rational thinking process given the ruleset. But it makes no sense - why does killing orcs or doing quests contribute to Bob's craftsmanship, if exp penalties are supposed to indicate time-not-spent-adventuring, and why is there a limit on how many wands Bob can craft without adventuring, if crafting is supposed to replace adventuring? Why would an adventurer who slays dragons be a better crafter of magic items than a master craftsman who's crafted wands all his life (assuming that he could get exp for just being craftsman in the first place)? Course, a good DM would solve all these inconsistencies, but it shows how the base PnP rules are really not suited for simulating anything other than a well DM'd game.

 

[elander_]

Very well said.

 

[Volourn]

No. Horribly said. Only power gamers, and munchkins are afraid of an xp cost for magic item crafting. Period.

 

[Azarkon]

It's not called being afraid of something, Volourn. It's called good design versus bad design. PnP exp loss for item crafting is bad design, and I've yet to see a cogent argument otherwise.

 

[Volourn]

That's because you are dumb.

There have been good arguments given for it here by three people.

Experience is how the game shows the character's 'power'. Experience is used to empower magic items. That's the 'in game' reason why.

The mechanical reason why is that it ensures that people don't spam create. And, no, the reason why gold is not a good enough substitute is that is gold is not as valuable as experience for so many reasons.

It is HORRIBLE design to get rid of xp cost for magic item creation. Period.

And, I've yet to see any reason NOT to have it. Not one.

 

[galsiah]

It is HORRIBLE design to get rid of xp cost for magic item creation. Period.

It's only bad design to remove it if you don't have a better alternative. I'm sure there's one out there, though I doubt NWN2 will use it.

In any case, adopting a P&P rule system for a cRPG is an idiotic decision (marketing aside).
I can't get too interested in discussing the medical skills of someone who's repeatedly shooting himself in the foot.

 

[Crichton]

I remember the system from ToEE well, but I didn't really like it for three reasons.

1) There's no way of knowing what bizzaro loot the game's going to throw at you, so questions like "should I just save my 500 xp or spend it on this sword +2?" were impossible to evaluate.

2) I hate it when my party members are at different levels in 3rd edition and there was no way to spread the cost around. This is particularly sad because most of the stuff I crafted was weapons an armor that everyone used.

3) It limited party selection somewhat by forcing you to take a cleric if you wanted a HOLY-MOLY WEAPON!111! of most types. Since no other weapon was of any damn use against the bosses, parties without clerics had to make due with what they could find (and there wasn't much). (my druid/ranger/barbarian party really despised this)

I like clerics, so that wasn't that big a deal, and I always waited until I hit the level cap before crafting stuff so I didn't have to worry about them being a level behind. I would have been even happier if I didn't have to worry about stupid shit like magic weapon availablity at all and it was just built into the character design system (upgrade to magic weapon or upgrade strength +2, both 10 points). But then diablo fans would cry.

 

[Azarkon]

There have been good arguments given for it here by three people.

All of which are retarded when considering the alternatives available in PnP.

Experience is how the game shows the character's 'power'. Experience is used to empower magic items. That's the 'in game' reason why.

An explanation is not an argument, especially when it is such an inconsistent explanation. If experience is meant to show the character's "power" and can be used to empower magic items, how is it that spell casting in general do not incur huge experience penalties. Why doesn't swinging a sword, or calling upon one's god?

The mechanical reason why is that it ensures that people don't spam create. And, no, the reason why gold is not a good enough substitute is that is gold is not as valuable as experience for so many reasons.

In PnP, it is possible to preven people from spam creating directly with time-based costs. Simply make it that crafting a wand takes, for example, a week's worth of time. No more spam creation and a hell of alot cleaner than experience penalties.

Gold is also an excellent substitute in worlds where it *is* valuable - and why shouldn't it be? It is a design flaw that gold is so common in CRPGs.

It is HORRIBLE design to get rid of xp cost for magic item creation. Period.

Saying that it is does not make it so, just as claiming that I'm dumb does not make it so. Proof, please.

And, I've yet to see any reason NOT to have it. Not one.

I've provided several.

 

[jiujitsu]

Personally, I absolutely hated the XP loss for crafting feature in ToEE. You pretty much have to choose between ever improving or getting better gear. Lame ass shit.

 

[Volourn]

"An explanation is not an argument, especially when it is such an inconsistent explanation. If experience is meant to show the character's "power" and can be used to empower magic items, how is it that spell casting in general do not incur huge experience penalties. Why doesn't swinging a sword, or calling upon one's god?"

The fact you have to fall back to the 'swing a weapon' or 'call on one's good' exuse proves how lame your standing then.

As for casting spells, it's simple. Most spells aren't permenant. When you create a magic item, it is permenant, hence the power needed to 'magic them up' is higher. This is also why certain magic spells *do* cost xp to cast - espicially the more powerful, longer lasting ones. besdies, casting magic spells alreayd has it rules - it takes energy toc ast hence why you can onlyc ast so many a day. Doofus.


"Gold is also an excellent substitute in worlds where it *is* valuable - and why shouldn't it be? It is a design flaw that gold is so common in CRPGs."

Learn to read. i never said gold wans't important or valuable. i said it wans't as important or valuable as gold. On top of that, gold doesn't nor can't usually empower magical items with magical energy. Most of the cost in gold is sued to buy materials, and equipment for the iteamc rafting. The character's experience which is basically their 'energy' empowers the magic item with magical energy. Hence, why the more powerful the item, the more xp it costs.


"I've provided several."

Dumb ones. No one has given a REAL reason why the xp cost for creating magic items is a poor way to handle it. Not one.

TOEE's item creation was fantatsic. If it wasn't for the constant crashing 'cause of bugs; it would have been perfect.

LONG LIVE TRUE D&D ITEM CREATION!!!


Only fakers, losers, idiots, cowards, powergamers, and munchkins dissaprove of it!


Game over.

 

[Mefi]

Personally, I absolutely hated the XP loss for crafting feature in ToEE. You pretty much have to choose between ever improving or getting better gear. Lame ass shit.

So true. Choices with consequences is such a sucky concept.

 

[Claw]

I think it's less that exp loss sucks as that level exp sucks. It's this general abstract value for whatever powers the character has.

I figure permanent stat-loss would work great in a stat-based system, and could provide some very interesting game mechanics.

 

[Azarkon]

The fact you have to fall back to the 'swing a weapon' or 'call on one's good' exuse proves how lame your standing then.

Why should they be different? Experience is power, right? Or does it work differently for fighters and clerics, such that experience is power only for a mage, but not for other classes? How much sense does that make?

As for casting spells, it's simple. Most spells aren't permenant. When you create a magic item, it is permenant, hence the power needed to 'magic them up' is higher. This is also why certain magic spells *do* cost xp to cast - espicially the more powerful, longer lasting ones. besdies, casting magic spells alreayd has it rules - it takes energy toc ast hence why you can onlyc ast so many a day. Doofus.

So creating a magic item is more taxing than casting a meteor swarm? Makes no sense. Hence why the concept was stupid to begin with.

Learn to read. i never said gold wans't important or valuable. i said it wans't as important or valuable as gold.

Learn to read? More like learn to write.

On top of that, gold doesn't nor can't usually empower magical items with magical energy.

The gold costs are material costs. The power cost to cast the spells required come from the same source that empowers said spells. Both of these make sense, and I'd even go for a "life force" drain for powerful items, as D&D used to have with CON reductions, though that could be just as easily abstracted into a time-cost (I assume the CON reductions were retarded because they were permanent and could not be corrected). Experience costs, on the other hand, are simply arbitrary restrictions placed to correct a problem that can be easily solved if the system were designed with any sense in mind.

Dumb ones. No one has given a REAL reason why the xp cost for creating magic items is a poor way to handle it. Not one.

No explanation = ignored.

LONG LIVE TRUE D&D ITEM CREATION!!!


Only fakers, losers, idiots, cowards, powergamers, and munchkins dissaprove of it!


Game over.

Actually, it's probably the opposite. Only power gamers favor the D&D style of item creation, because it means no "permanent" setback since experience can simply be regained by fireballing a cave of orcs. The mechanic can even be used to keep your levels down so that you could maximize exp gain from low level monsters while crafting a buttload of items. A power gamer's dream.

 

[Volourn]

"Or does it work differently for fighters and clerics, such that experience is power only for a mage, but not for other classes? How much sense does that make?"

Youa re an idiot. Any character that craftes magic items deals with the xp loss; not just mages. Morons.


"So creating a magic item is more taxing than casting a meteor swarm? Makes no sense. Hence why the concept was stupid to begin with."

Don't be stupid. Meteor swarm is taxing as is catsing spells... that's why you can only cast so many in one day, and in soem cases castingc ertain spells costs you xp as well. The reason why itemc reation costs xp is because you are empowering the item with the magic permenately unlike casting a meteor swarm which is cast just once, and that's it. D00fus!


"Experience costs, on the other hand, are simply arbitrary restrictions placed to correct a problem that can be easily solved if the system were designed with any sense in mind."

How cna you argue against a system when you are so stupid you don't even understand how it works. Afterall, you are the one claimed that only mages get hit with xp loss. Idiot.


"Actually, it's probably the opposite. Only power gamers favor the D&D style of item creation, because it means no "permanent" setback since experience can simply be regained by fireballing a cave of orcs. The mechanic can even be used to keep your levels down so that you could maximize exp gain from low level monsters while crafting a buttload of items. A power gamer's dream."

Ah... The 'ol 'I'm not a powergamer; but you are!" XP is not that eaisly to get back. It's a permenant loss, and orc caves don't grow on trees. And, your example is ultra lame when the same cna be done with gold. Look at this, I just said all my gold on itemc reation, let's go kill the orcs for some more. LOLOLOLOL How is that any different?

Face it. Only those who are fakers, losers, idiots, cowards, powergamers, and munchkins disprove of the xp cost that is used to empower items with magic.

 

[galsiah]

So true. Choices with consequences is such a sucky concept.

Perhaps not, but a player deserves interesting consequences. Why have item creation merely slow down levelling? Why not have it make the process different? Permanent stat loss is one way to do this (presuming stat gain is rarely an option). I'm sure there are many others.
Loss of generic xp is just not interesting.