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Review Oblivion Review
- Thread starter Vault Dweller
- Start date
An intelligent review.
Well, but is the same shit of any crpg, in Gothic 2 there is an orc invasion, a castle sieged..., but the pj waste the time making side quests and chasing wolves.
From the role-playing point of view, only turn based combat is ok, Oblivion combat sucks, and Gothic combat sucks, Vampire Bloodlines combat sucks... , Oblivion combat is fun, and is much better MW combat.
Well, in Oblivion factions are ok (from the role-playing point of view :wink: ), DB is fine for an evil assassin, Thieves Guild is ok for an thief , and Mage and Fighter (never play) fits for an loyal citizen.
Agree :D (but in a well done RPG you never play a well done Thief-type game/action game).
PD You forgot the plugins :twisted:
Well, but is the same shit of any crpg, in Gothic 2 there is an orc invasion, a castle sieged..., but the pj waste the time making side quests and chasing wolves.
From the role-playing point of view, only turn based combat is ok, Oblivion combat sucks, and Gothic combat sucks, Vampire Bloodlines combat sucks...
, Oblivion combat is fun, and is much better MW combat.Well, in Oblivion factions are ok (from the role-playing point of view :wink: ), DB is fine for an evil assassin, Thieves Guild is ok for an thief , and Mage and Fighter (never play) fits for an loyal citizen.
Agree :D (but in a well done RPG you never play a well done Thief-type game/action game).
PD You forgot the plugins :twisted:
Elwro
Arcane
A very interesting read! The Diablo 2 / Oblivion screenshot comparison is great :D
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2005
- Messages
- 4,638
It's a good review, but I'm a bit dissapointed
Dunno, maybe its because this was THE review everyone was waiting for, and as usual when you get your hopes up too high you get slightly dissapointed.
If the lenght is 4000 words, its ok - maybe the formating in certain areas lets it appear "thin" . Maybe the screenshots - text ratio is to high.
Contentwise, I expected a much harsher review, things like the exploit that the best way to develop your character is to set your most used skills as minor skills arent even mentioned if I didn't miss them somewhere.
Also, while the dungeon are fun, they are very repetitive. There are maybe 4 types of it and its not really that you discover something new after some time.
There are a few other things,
my general impression was that VD didn't want to be accussed as Oblivion basher with his opinion about the game already made before playing it, and thus treated it way to soft than the game deserves.
A small paragraph explainig the concept of true freedom in games versus the "I can chose in which order to do my sidequests and join all guild freedom" would have been nice, so all that ESF Kiddies who are always like "TES IS TEH ULTIMET FREDOMM!" would get educated. Then again, those kiddies won't read the review anyways so...
A few stylistic things:
While I like the idea with the developer quotes, I don't like making screenshots a mandatory part of the review, so that you have to click on them to get the point the reviewer wants to make ( like that guilds reward thing)
Dunno, maybe its just me, but I hate clicking on screenshots when reading a review, especially if they are not made with that java-what-so-ever application thingie which opens them in a small window and closes them immidiatly when you click on it again, but rather require a new windows explorer window or firefox tab to open them.
Sometimes during the read, i felt the review lacked a clear structure at some points.
Other then that it was a good read, if a bit too nice imho.
Dunno, maybe its because this was THE review everyone was waiting for, and as usual when you get your hopes up too high you get slightly dissapointed.
If the lenght is 4000 words, its ok - maybe the formating in certain areas lets it appear "thin" . Maybe the screenshots - text ratio is to high.
Contentwise, I expected a much harsher review, things like the exploit that the best way to develop your character is to set your most used skills as minor skills arent even mentioned if I didn't miss them somewhere.
Also, while the dungeon are fun, they are very repetitive. There are maybe 4 types of it and its not really that you discover something new after some time.
There are a few other things,
my general impression was that VD didn't want to be accussed as Oblivion basher with his opinion about the game already made before playing it, and thus treated it way to soft than the game deserves.
A small paragraph explainig the concept of true freedom in games versus the "I can chose in which order to do my sidequests and join all guild freedom" would have been nice, so all that ESF Kiddies who are always like "TES IS TEH ULTIMET FREDOMM!" would get educated. Then again, those kiddies won't read the review anyways so...
A few stylistic things:
While I like the idea with the developer quotes, I don't like making screenshots a mandatory part of the review, so that you have to click on them to get the point the reviewer wants to make ( like that guilds reward thing)
Dunno, maybe its just me, but I hate clicking on screenshots when reading a review, especially if they are not made with that java-what-so-ever application thingie which opens them in a small window and closes them immidiatly when you click on it again, but rather require a new windows explorer window or firefox tab to open them.
Sometimes during the read, i felt the review lacked a clear structure at some points.
Other then that it was a good read, if a bit too nice imho.
Abernathy
Scholar
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=396547
Fucking idiot fanboys aside, seems it went down well
Fucking idiot fanboys aside, seems it went down well
Micmu
Magister
That's a good "native" Codex review, I like it's style and what was said. Pretty much encompasses everything I noticed when I was force-feeding myself playing the game.
However, it does not mention that famous PR bullshit "Many people will be surprised with dialogue!" by Kathode (I think). Also, it does not mention overhyped voice acting, which is very bland and unconvincing.
However, it does not mention that famous PR bullshit "Many people will be surprised with dialogue!" by Kathode (I think). Also, it does not mention overhyped voice acting, which is very bland and unconvincing.
elander_
Arbiter
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2005
- Messages
- 2,015
I think the review is right on the spot. Oblivion maybe an interesting action-adventure game but it's a very shity crpg. And it's important for people who are looking for role-playing in a crpg to not fall for this kind of PR bullshit. Im not trying to balme the PR here just the bullshit he has to pass on. There is no to role-playing in Oblivion. There is one or two quests that would fit well in a crpg, there are features in the game that modders could use to create a crpg out of this game but thats it. In terms of content provided Oblivion is an action-adventure game just like Redguard with a lot of cool features that were not used properly.
And the funny thing is that had they not wasted their time trying to create a fake crpg to show-off the press with that dude mounted on a worse holding a sword or that E3 demo with dynamic soft-shadows and the pretty broken attribute system with all those skills that are worth nothing because the way we solve problems in Oblivion, had they focused in creating a good open-ended action-adventure game like Redguard then Oblivion would not had all those problems linked half-assed pretensious role-playing and Oblivion would probably deserve it's 90% score.
It's obvious that this Bethesda team can't make a decent crpg or they don't want to make one or they can't make one without compromising role-playing to the point it becomes worthless and inconsequent. This is not the kind of shit i will want to see in Fallout 3. This game was the top of crpg and it's still the top. A Beth version of F3 similar to Oblivion even if it is a successful one among the mainstream will only banalize and ridicularize the great achievement and contribution that F3 was to crpgs.
And the funny thing is that had they not wasted their time trying to create a fake crpg to show-off the press with that dude mounted on a worse holding a sword or that E3 demo with dynamic soft-shadows and the pretty broken attribute system with all those skills that are worth nothing because the way we solve problems in Oblivion, had they focused in creating a good open-ended action-adventure game like Redguard then Oblivion would not had all those problems linked half-assed pretensious role-playing and Oblivion would probably deserve it's 90% score.
It's obvious that this Bethesda team can't make a decent crpg or they don't want to make one or they can't make one without compromising role-playing to the point it becomes worthless and inconsequent. This is not the kind of shit i will want to see in Fallout 3. This game was the top of crpg and it's still the top. A Beth version of F3 similar to Oblivion even if it is a successful one among the mainstream will only banalize and ridicularize the great achievement and contribution that F3 was to crpgs.
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2005
- Messages
- 4,638
elander said:
Honestly, I would have prefered to see the Fallout licence dying rather then getting into the filthy hands of beth.
When FO 3 comes out, I will have to plug out my internet connection for 3 months to avoid getting a heart attack caused by anger when seeing all that new fallout "fans" who will be all like "OMG TEH GAME IS SO MUCH BETA THEN THE FIRST TWO ITS MUCH MORE ACTION AND TAKES YOU SREITGT TO THE FUN!!"
edit: Ill have to admitt the majority in the thread on the ESF forum about VD review is pretty reasonable...didn't expect that from these forums...where are all the fanbois gone? Well Beth seems you really fucked up.
Vault Dweller
Commissar, Red Star Studio
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2003
- Messages
- 28,044
Agree. The character system does suck and it works backwards: basically your minor skills increase attributes the most. I simply didn't want to turn the review into a novel by going over every aspect. I even forgot to mention those "need a key" doors, making Security skill useless.EEVIAC said:
We let YOU post, didn't we?viruscarrierxxx said:
Well, it's been discussed to death before, so here is a short version. DF had a great, maybe even the best character system supporting very unique and well defined characters with their own strengths and flaws. The game design worked with those skills, so your Thief could actually climb walls - how fucking amazing is that? The gameworld was huge, with 30+ factions, and tons of quests, catering to your build, to do, i.e. a monk could investigate appearance of deities, a mage would be called to cast powerful spells, summon things, etc. You could decline guild quests that didn't fit your character or were of no interest to you. The storyline was non-linear and had 6 different endings, if I recall correctly.Dhruin said:
Overall, DF had a great character system and gameplay built around it. See the difference?
Is it?Bladderfish said:
Vault Dweller
Commissar, Red Star Studio
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2003
- Messages
- 28,044
It's a bit different though. The castle was under siege, but it wasn't under attack, and it looked like the paladins could defend it for some time, so there was less urgency there.Fodel said:
Uh, no. In Gothic low skills will get you killed very quickly. As for Bloodlines, do you recall how many reviewers complained that Ranged combat is weak? Well, try at 8+ skill, with almost no recoil, great accuracy and damage. See the difference?From the role-playing point of view, only turn based combat is ok, Oblivion combat sucks, and Gothic combat sucks, Vampire Bloodlines combat sucks...
Sure, in a very shallow, vanilla way - and that's the point of criticism - they do. However, if someone's looking for depth, they should seek it elsewhere.
True. However, Bloodlines did a much better job there.
Micmu
Magister
Not to mention 6 different voices in total and they all sound quite unconvincing - like reciting from a script. Oh, and elves had the gayest voice ever. What was wrong with that chain smoker voice from MW?
Vault Dweller
Commissar, Red Star Studio
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2003
- Messages
- 28,044
Well, 40+ screens break the text a lot.TalesfromtheCrypt said:
Every game has exploits and I don't think that reviews should mention them.
I did mention this complaint (of other people), but I enjoyed them overall.
First, I don't care what I'm accused of. Those who love the game would accuse me of something anyway. Second, my mind wasn't already made. I had some doubts, but I tried to enjoy the game from any angle: rpg, adventure, action, etc. Then I shared my thoughts with you without trying to cater to any particular fan group.
A picture is still worth a thousand words, aint it? The running knight is my favourite picture set though.
Atrokkus
Erudite
Well, I think you are satisfied now, VD. Almost all of your predictions (or, rather, deductions) about the game were proven true, huh?
It is, however, still a very good adventure+action, but ONLY with mods that get rid of the damn level-scaling. Wihtout mods, Oblivion sucks even as a dungeon-crawl, at least in my book.
// I'm almost done translating the review, gonna post it in an hour or so
It is, however, still a very good adventure+action, but ONLY with mods that get rid of the damn level-scaling. Wihtout mods, Oblivion sucks even as a dungeon-crawl, at least in my book.
// I'm almost done translating the review, gonna post it in an hour or so
Vault Dweller
Commissar, Red Star Studio
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2003
- Messages
- 28,044
Trust me, as a gamer, I really hoped to be proven wrong.metallix said:
Let us know how it would go.
miles foreman
Scholar
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2006
- Messages
- 105
First, I'd just like to say that I did not register here because of this review. I've been reading the Codex for several years now and the forums for a little less than that. I thought that this would be as good a time as any to reg up. Anyway:
Dungeon Crawling: Daggerfall was great at this. Arx Fatalis is another example. Does Oblivion fare better against these two in this regard? Yes and no. The design of dungeons in Oblivion are good overall; some are lengthy but still not overly confusing to navigate. I find them visually pleasing even though there are only about a handful of "palette swaps." The atmosphere is completely ruined however by the disasterous respawn and level matching scheme. You mean to tell me exactly three days after I clear out a dungeon of skeletons that a new horde just magically migrates there, puts the exact same crappy loot I just stole into the chests I'd raided and relocks them? Uh, okay.
A more intelligent decision would have been set loads for the initial dungeon, followed by individual lists for each dungeon/cave/ruin to determine respawn. The chests should never respawn unless humanoids (human, orc, goblin, elven, etc.) spawned. Here's an example:
I clear out a dungeon swarming with skeletons and ghosts (lets say 20 skeletons and 5 ghosts). After a random amount of time (3-10 days or something) the game looks at the initial load list (Okay, this was a dungeon infested by skeletons. My individual list for this dungeon says I can spawn either 3-7 skeletons and 1-2 ghosts, 3-7 goblins of any particular tribe, or 3-5 humanoids which would either be bandits or adventurers). Depending on whether the goblins or humanoids spawn, the game would look at the total number of chests and containers located in the dungeon and respawn items based on a levelled or random list.
Every single cell in the game should have been hand-designed by one of the 200 developers working at Bethesda to avoid levelled loot and monsters. You can use the levelled lists after the cell has been visited by the player. The game could check to see if all enemies had been slain and alter the spawn rate of creatures and loot accordingly.
This is a very simple yet effective way to make dungeon crawling in Oblivion a much more rewarding experience. It would not have been difficult to implement if they had sat for more than ten minutes in a design meeting and thought it out.
(sorry for the length, I went back and added some more stuff and got carried away)
Quest lines and choice affecting gameplay: This has never been a strong point of the ES series, so you must fall back to better representatives like FO or PS:T. Oblivion has none of the depth that either of these offer and I think it's a worthy criticism. Without choice or consequence Oblivion turns into nothing more than a rail shooter with swords and goblins.
The real question is: What's the point of playing the game? After 15 hours (two of which you may spend in the tutorial dungeon, depending on how leisurely you progress through it or time spent tweaking your character) you've seen all that Oblivion has to offer. Despite all the time the developers supposedly spent creating Cyrodiil there is absolutely no reason to explore because there's never any chance of reward. What is the player left with? Not much except for a game that lasts about as long as your average FPS. That would be fine if it hadn't be touted as the greatest CRPG ever conceived.
Vault Dweller is comparing Oblivion to all the great things of several separate CRPGs in different areas. He's trying to see if the game (which was billed as the "end-all-be-all" to the CRPG genre according to Bethesda's own PR machine) stands up against the best aspects of the best CRPGs ever made. To wit:Dhruin said:
Dungeon Crawling: Daggerfall was great at this. Arx Fatalis is another example. Does Oblivion fare better against these two in this regard? Yes and no. The design of dungeons in Oblivion are good overall; some are lengthy but still not overly confusing to navigate. I find them visually pleasing even though there are only about a handful of "palette swaps." The atmosphere is completely ruined however by the disasterous respawn and level matching scheme. You mean to tell me exactly three days after I clear out a dungeon of skeletons that a new horde just magically migrates there, puts the exact same crappy loot I just stole into the chests I'd raided and relocks them? Uh, okay.
A more intelligent decision would have been set loads for the initial dungeon, followed by individual lists for each dungeon/cave/ruin to determine respawn. The chests should never respawn unless humanoids (human, orc, goblin, elven, etc.) spawned. Here's an example:
I clear out a dungeon swarming with skeletons and ghosts (lets say 20 skeletons and 5 ghosts). After a random amount of time (3-10 days or something) the game looks at the initial load list (Okay, this was a dungeon infested by skeletons. My individual list for this dungeon says I can spawn either 3-7 skeletons and 1-2 ghosts, 3-7 goblins of any particular tribe, or 3-5 humanoids which would either be bandits or adventurers). Depending on whether the goblins or humanoids spawn, the game would look at the total number of chests and containers located in the dungeon and respawn items based on a levelled or random list.
Every single cell in the game should have been hand-designed by one of the 200 developers working at Bethesda to avoid levelled loot and monsters. You can use the levelled lists after the cell has been visited by the player. The game could check to see if all enemies had been slain and alter the spawn rate of creatures and loot accordingly.
This is a very simple yet effective way to make dungeon crawling in Oblivion a much more rewarding experience. It would not have been difficult to implement if they had sat for more than ten minutes in a design meeting and thought it out.
(sorry for the length, I went back and added some more stuff and got carried away)
Quest lines and choice affecting gameplay: This has never been a strong point of the ES series, so you must fall back to better representatives like FO or PS:T. Oblivion has none of the depth that either of these offer and I think it's a worthy criticism. Without choice or consequence Oblivion turns into nothing more than a rail shooter with swords and goblins.
The real question is: What's the point of playing the game? After 15 hours (two of which you may spend in the tutorial dungeon, depending on how leisurely you progress through it or time spent tweaking your character) you've seen all that Oblivion has to offer. Despite all the time the developers supposedly spent creating Cyrodiil there is absolutely no reason to explore because there's never any chance of reward. What is the player left with? Not much except for a game that lasts about as long as your average FPS. That would be fine if it hadn't be touted as the greatest CRPG ever conceived.
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