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Oblivion skill list?

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Drakron, Sep 23, 2005.

  1. Tintin Arbiter

    Tintin
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    Yes, you can only do RPG Codex hedonophobia speak.

    Oh, okay, misinterpretation of the first post, then the second where you said "Under Oblivion's genius design, dagger skill is EQUIVALENT to two-handed sword skill, whilst a two-handed axe is NOWHERE NEAR." builds on it, as it practically finishes with "a dagger". So, I admit I was wrong. Now to wait for some savage response. *waits*

    What point exactly are you trying to make? To chance the skills from one handed to two handed?
     
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  2. Twinfalls Erudite

    Twinfalls
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    The point I am making is this:

    Combining blade skills into one is a poor design decision.

    This is because it leads to gameplay like this:

    You pick up a dagger at the start of the game. You become an expert with it, and gain skill perks (ie new attacks). Then, you pick up a huge two-handed sword, and automatically, you are an expert at using it, right from the get go. You even have new attacks for it, yet you haven't used it once!

    Now compare this with the person who picks up a two-handed axe at the start of the game. He becomes an expert with it, but what happens if he then picks up a two-handed sword? That's right, he's a complete novice. Has to start all over.

    Not good. Not logical. Surely a two-handed axe is more similar to a two-handed sword than a dagger!

    Thing is, they decided to have skill perks. Which could have helped, if they had been weapon specific. Ie - practice with a dagger and you get new attacks only for daggers. Instead, it's skill specific. So it makes things even worse. New attacks for dagger = new attacks for two-handed sword!

    Silly. Very silly. See where reducing skills, instead of expanding them, leads designers?
     
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  3. MrSmileyFaceDude Bethesda Game Studios Developer

    MrSmileyFaceDude
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    And once again, short-term memory and reading comprehension are absent.

    Since you missed the point -- again -- I'll spell it out for you.

    I am a programmer. I design how the software works, and make it work. The software design is based on the game's design -- how the various game systems are supposed to function, what gameplay is supposed to be like, etc.

    I am not responsible for content. Content is all the stuff you see and do -- all the artwork, all the dialogue, the quests, the story, characters, etc. I don't touch any of that, and I'm only involved at the very periphery of all that. In other words, I'm not the one making the decisions that rely on all the details -- grand and obscure -- that make up the world that you play in. I take what the designers give me and make it work.

    Oh sure, I can help out in the design process, offering suggestions, coming up with ideas, etc. And sometimes they even get implemented (skill perks were a suggestion of mine.) Some times they don't, because when it comes right down to it it is the designers' and the executive producer's final say.

    I didn't know that "hafted weapons" specifically referred to the group of weapons encompassing axes and maces, and got called to task for it. And so I posted an exaggeration to drive the point home that as a programmer IT DOESN'T MATTER if I know every scrap of minutiae involved in the game's content.
     
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  4. Twinfalls Erudite

    Twinfalls
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    This really should be sigged.
     
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  5. Twinfalls Erudite

    Twinfalls
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    Question(s) - did you raise the possibility of perks being weapon-specific? If you think skill-specific is better, can you explain your reasoning?
     
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  6. MrSmileyFaceDude Bethesda Game Studios Developer

    MrSmileyFaceDude
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    I thought they'd provide additional incentive to raise skills, beyond than just getting better at the skills.

    One thing you have to remember about TES is that skills are not the same as they are in D&D or a game like Fallout. Skills are more generic and cover multiple talents. They're more akin to weapon group proficiencies than to systems where the skills pertain to more specific weapons. And because skill advancement is what drives leveling up, balancing the skills is more crucial than it might be in other games. You should be able to level up at roughly the same rate regardless of your selection of major skills. Compare that to a pure XP based game. You get rewarded for completing quests and performing other tasks with XP, and then you get to "buy" skills and/or skill advancement when you level up. Systems like that are more amenable to having a much wider variety of skills. They're just very, very different systems, and you have to remember that when talking about skills in TES vs skills in other games such as Fallout.

    As I've posted other times, other factors weigh in to weapon usage besides just the skill, too. Your player's attributes come into play. I've brought up the quick dagger user vs slow claymore user before, and it's a good example.
     
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  7. Dark Elf Erudite

    Dark Elf
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    As a Bethesda employee posting at The Codex it does matter though.
     
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  8. Twinfalls Erudite

    Twinfalls
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    @MSFD

    Ah, I see.

    I have read your example of the speed difference between a dagger and claymore before. I just hope this will be enough to really encourage specialisation decision-making in the face of such a broad weapon skill as 'blade'...
     
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  9. MrSmileyFaceDude Bethesda Game Studios Developer

    MrSmileyFaceDude
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    I've been through the reasons why I post here a number of times. And it's not for PR. Ask Sandelfron or Vault Dweller if you doubt that.
     
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  10. Twinfalls Erudite

    Twinfalls
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    Dark Elf, please don't be a dick.
     
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  11. Chefe Erudite

    Chefe
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    When did skills become more generic and cover multiple talents?

    To me it seems, at least, that in a skill based game the skills should be more diverse and greater in number. You train with a dagger and you get better with a dagger, not a claymore. It's the XP based systems that don't make any sense... you deliver a package and you get better in your summoning abilities....? XP based systems should be lumpers (throwing everything into one skill), while skill based systems would be excellent splitters (like Daggerfall and Morrowind).
     
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  12. Human Shield Augur

    Human Shield
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  13. Chefe Erudite

    Chefe
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    No. But it's better to fix something than get rid of it.
     
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  14. Human Shield Augur

    Human Shield
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    Yeah it is always easy to remove depth for balance but that isn't what people want. What if the 3 sides of Star Craft were just mirror teams, good and easy balance but people don't want that.
     
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  15. Pr()ZaC Scholar

    Pr()ZaC
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    MrSmileyFaceDude, is there a way, ANY WAY, to change the skill system via mods or is it totally hard coded? (I'm sure Balor et others already asked you this but I can't go through the posts right now)
     
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  16. MrSmileyFaceDude Bethesda Game Studios Developer

    MrSmileyFaceDude
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    You can change the skill names, what their governing attributes are, and how much they advance with usage. You can also manipulate all of the game's formulas by modifying the constants used within them.
     
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  17. Chefe Erudite

    Chefe
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    So, I take it no adding in skills?

    I do like that you can rename them though. That should be fun, I've always wanted to have a skill called "Sharp Pointy Things".
     
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  18. MrSmileyFaceDude Bethesda Game Studios Developer

    MrSmileyFaceDude
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    Yeah you can change all of the text in the game using the TESCS. None of it is hard-coded -- makes it tough to localize :)
     
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  19. Balor Arcane

    Balor
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    Mwahahaha!
    So, if not for localization - we'd not be able to modify that too? I bet.

    We, unworthy modders, grovel at your feet. We suck! Beat us more, we deserve pain, torture and humiliation! Harcode everything! Make CS worth as much as 3D Max! We deserve nothing! We are but a dust under your feet! We shall not want!

    Oh, no 'teh irony' tag. How bad.
    So, it's up for everyone to use their brains to think whether it's for real or not.
    Off to TES forums for my daily portion of groveling and sucking to developers in vain attempt to get some news features for CS.
     
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  20. triCritical Erudite

    triCritical
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    Guess what I am a programmer too. Hee Hee. Well actually I am a physicist too, a rather cool one, who just so happens to get pigeon-holed into programming with every job he ever gets. I have written all sorts of code, from application software, to radar AI, but I still find time to actually know what I am talking about.


    You be missin da point! I am just simply correcting you, for fear that one person will take bethesda, the makers FO3, for thinking Nuclear Physics is a pivotal part of FO setting. When it doesn't even register on scale, with the exception of following a nuclear war. But, one does not need to know astrophysics to know about the post-dinosaur world.


    GOSH!


    EDIT: As for skills names, I often times find arguing semantics rather unrewarding. Actually I am more unhappy with the skills themselves. Like I said, you guys did not find the synergy between skills which are alike, and instead forced very awkward combinations.

    BTW: I have a lot of typo's because I am used to compilers finding my syntax errors. LOL!
     
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  21. Twinfalls Erudite

    Twinfalls
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    This is a good point. MSFD, what's your take on this?....

     
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  22. DarkUnderlord Professional Throne Sitter

    DarkUnderlord
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    Amen.

    THAT'S not spelling it out! THIS is spelling it out:

    I a m a p r o g r a m m e r fullstop I d e s i g n h o w t h e s o f t w a r e w o r k s comma a n d m a k e i t w o r k fullstop T h e s o f t w a r e d e s i g n i s b a s e d o n t h e g a m e apostrophe s d e s i g n dash h o w t h e v a r i o u s g a m e s y s t e m s a r e s u p p o s e d t o f u n c t i o n comma w h a t g a m e p l a y i s s u p p o s e d t o b e l i k e comma etcetera fullstop
     
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  23. GhanBuriGhan Erudite

    GhanBuriGhan
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    Skill perks seem to be one of the few things we specifically know about that would seem to add more depth instead of streamlining - so kudos for that. I believe I already mentioned I would have preferred a training / quest reward model for aquiring them, but their mere presence should already bring new gameplay options as the game progresses which should make things more interesting.

    Balor, I think you are a bit over the top. I have complained my share about the CS, and I certainly wish they would have a more dedicated support person for the modding forum, but at the end of the day the CS was a great toy, and you could do great things within its confines. Just accept that its not a generic RPG builder, its a Oblivion game content editor. In addition, half the fun I had with the CS was to find totally whacky workarounds for scripting things the devs themselves thought impossible. :)
     
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  24. Balor Arcane

    Balor
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    And after such words you accuse me of my masochism-styled "outburst" is 'over the top'? :twisted:
    Well, in fact, I do agree with you :).
    On the other hand, I'd prefer to combat with logic in my own scripts, not making out how the hell I go around inability to do something, while the manual says that you can do it!
    Limitation for scripts size and number of ifs was a HUGE pain too - since it's completely silent.
    Anyway, I can understand that, after releasing MW, devs were thinking that CS will never be used for something then a 'house in Balmora' or 'sword of ass-lopping plugings'.
    Remember that passage in the manual about 'big' plugings being a few hundred kilobytes? :D
    However, seeing what we've done with it... and yet do nothing about it - that's what ticks me off.
    Oh well, I've stated all my reasons before, I'm not gonna do again.
     
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