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Interview Oblivion tit for tat at GameCloud

Discussion in 'News & Content Feedback' started by Saint_Proverbius, Sep 26, 2005.

  1. triCritical Erudite

    triCritical
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    Yes all games are all pretty unrealistic. I guess your daddy forgot to tell you that.

    Yes but this is a roleplaying game, and animations only tell half the story. You also have stats. Hence, a standard animation and proximity range should not overrule your characters potential, because that is >= realistic then point and clicking in range.
     
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  2. triCritical Erudite

    triCritical
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  3. Tintin Arbiter

    Tintin
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    An insult. Wow. Amazing. Breathtaking. You just blew my mind. U R L33T

    Except you forgot the part that says all games are "equally unrealistic". You know, stating if it's the case as you put it, then that means no game is more realistic than the other because they all use keyboards and mouses. :roll:

    Perhaps you forgot the part where stats affect the damage you do, if any, the speed of your movements, your dodging ability, your.........................
     
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  4. Chefe Erudite

    Chefe
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    Are you joking with me, or do you genuinely not know what's going on?

    Okay, let's see if you can understand this now...


    Problem: To-Hit Combat has your sword go through the opponent with no damage when you miss. People apparently have become enraged by this.

    Solution: Don't turn it into a twitch-based game similar to an FPS, simply add dodge animations for the enemy to use when you miss your attack.



    Of course, arguing about this now is pretty pointless, since the system is already implemented. We can only hope it is not too twitchy, and that it isn't the only aspect of gameplay.
     
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  5. Tintin Arbiter

    Tintin
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    It's not similar to an FPS. Unless I'm mistaken, stats will come into play for all the actions, the damage you do, the agility of your opponent and you, and both of your blocking and dodging abilities.
     
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  6. triCritical Erudite

    triCritical
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    You fuckwit, this is what you quoted.

    You countrol a mouse view and click a button, how does that equate to more realistic and natural fencing then a roll?

    Which any dumbfuck with a half a braincell can arrive at the conclusion that by saying one thing is no more then other, does not imply that the other is more then the former. Try to follow a basic premise before you start arguing semantics.

    Bingo! Because that is like my point. Hines says one system is more realistic then the other. I am arguing that one unrealistic system is not more realistic then the other. Hence, why favor one over the other, which departs from the previous system, which sold millions of fucking copies. I then went on to point out that not only does his conclusion not follow from his premise, but I then go on to hint that motivation is not this, but rather XBOX gamers.

    And if you would ever get off your ass, and do anything athletic you would find that natural abilities and acquired skills do more then create impulse/momentum transfers and create injuries. Henceforth, there is some skill in hitting a 100 mph fastball (not just how far it goes), there AN EXTREMELY HUGE AMOUNT of skill in hitting a perfectly still golf ball, and there is sure a fucking huge amount of skill in the ability to score a contact point in fencing, while normally absolutely no damage is done.

    Its a completely illogical contrived system to please console whores who can't spell keyboard.
     
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  7. Tintin Arbiter

    Tintin
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    Right, I suppose you would be the shining example of leaving your computer, you know, having more than seven times my post count.....

    Alll you did was make a stupid point to compare an in-game mechanic, die rolls, to an out of game one, moving your mouse to aim and pressing the keyboard.[/url]
     
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  8. Chefe Erudite

    Chefe
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    Jesus Christ, chico. We all know stats come into play. However, with the current combat system, you'll be moving around like you do in a... taa daa.... first person shooter! Stats will determine how much damage you do and all that jazz, but your character will have to be constantly moving around in combat to be effective, a la "Twitch" gameplay. If you don't enjoy FPS games, it's going to be hard to enjoy a game that's an FPS with swords.

    "BUT STATS COME INTO PLAY!!!!111"

    Yea, stats came into play in GTA: SA also. But who gave a fuck? It was how well you ran around the battlefield and ducked behind cars that determined if you won or not.

    Twitchy games are fun to play in short bursts. RPGs aren't built for short bursts. Try to cater to both crowds, and you'll get a game that's lacking on both sides.

    Yea, and him being a registered member for more than two years, and you for three months, has nothing to do with it, right?
     
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  9. Psilon Erudite

    Psilon
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    Also, amusingly enough, TriCritical makes fewer posts per day on average. 1.33 versus 1.71 as of this posting.
     
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  10. Tintin Arbiter

    Tintin
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    So spending two years on an internet site - versus three months - is better, I see. Especially when you consider that three months ago was when - summer started*gasp*



    Like in real combat.
     
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  11. triCritical Erudite

    triCritical
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    How was my point stupid? Are you as retarded as you sound. The analogy is fair, it is no more reaslistic to have hits decided on pointing and clicking, when real life, what we base realistic on, seems to suggest the oppositte. Base it on skills. RPG's present a way to do that. Pointing and clicking is nothing more then application interface, which presents nothing in the way of reality.
     
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  12. Chefe Erudite

    Chefe
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    Yes, but unlike in an RPG where your reflexes shouldn't determine how effective you are.

    It's like I'm talking to a brick wall here. I'm through arguing with you, chico.
     
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  13. TheGreatGodPan Arbiter

    TheGreatGodPan
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    If your enemy has a really high dodge skill, then they should get a dodge animation.
    If you have crappy aim, there should be a missing animation.
     
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  14. Section8 Erudite

    Section8
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    Or, some other abstraction to display to the user that their character missed, despite what the animation indicated. But I suppose displaying "Miss!" in text somewhere would be unimmersive and unrealistic :roll:
     
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  15. Saint_Proverbius Arcane Patron

    Saint_Proverbius
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    Circle strafing works great in fencing!
     
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  16. Twinfalls Erudite

    Twinfalls
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    <snip>
    Already called Tintin an idiot, and promised not to do it again.
     
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  17. RGE Liturgist

    RGE
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    You don't have to give any details, we already know all there is to know about your 'time machine'. ;)

    Other than that I agree that Pete Hines is a top notch PR guy, and that Oblivion won't live up to my imagination. And surely the difference between having the character's skills and the player's skills determine the outcome of combat is one of immersion and not one of realism? In games where one character kills whole hordes of opponents, 'realism' has already been sacrificed in favour of a power fantasy. But I can see how it could decrease rather than increase the immersion if the player doesn't have the necessary skill/ability to play the game. That's why I never played Daggerfall, or that first person hack'n slash where I could choose between a swordwielding warrior, a dwarf and an archer chick.
     
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  18. MrSmileyFaceDude Bethesda Game Studios Developer

    MrSmileyFaceDude
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    "Simply," huh? Don't forget, this is a real time game, not a turn based one. The enemy may be in the middle of doing something -- playing an attack, casting a spell, raising or lowering his shield, turning to flee, etc. You'd only be able to fit the "dodge" animation in when the opponent was idle. That means that if the attacker missed the to hit roll and the opponent was in the middle of another animation, there'd be no visible feedback that you'd missed, which was the whole point of adding in a dodge animation in the first place.

    Even then, the animation would have to be pretty fast and significant enough to make it look like the defender has evaded the strike. And you'd probably want different dodges for different types of weapons and attacks -- duck under a swing from a claymore, step aside from an overhead blow, jump back from a stab with a dagger, etc. And this all is predicated on having enough time to play the animation as well as being ABLE to play the animation (i.e. not being in the middle of doing something else.)

    If you did it "simply," you'd end up having it look like Han Solo dodging Greedo's shot in the latest version of Star Wars.
     
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  19. Sarvis Erudite

    Sarvis
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    Well, couldn't you make it so that an animation can be interrupted? So if he's doing a casting animation, he flips to a dodge animation, then back to the same point he was at in the casting animation.

    I realize that's probably not as simple as it sounds, but it would be a possibility.

    Of course, if you were using turn based combat like you should be that wouldn't be a problem. :P
     
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  20. Pr()ZaC Scholar

    Pr()ZaC
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    Not gonna happen. Too much work and too many "intro points" (where dodge animation starts) for animators to take care of.
     
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  21. Balor Arcane

    Balor
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    Well, anyone played Matrix Online there?
    I heard it has a great animation system for dodges and stuff.
    As for the system, I, woe on me, prefer manually controlled combat. I just find it fun, and I have fast enough reflexes to complement my brain power :P.
    Anyway, I understand people who liked Fallout or other games with 'point&click' type combat, yet that does not mean it's superior to manual control.
    Less discriminating to players, yes. Allow more freedom in playing a role to those ‘discriminated’ by the twitchy system. Yet manual control allows more immersion for those who like it.

    Anyway, when cater to players with undeveloped brains, it's a crime.
    When you cater to people with slow reflexes, it's sure great.
    ...
    Hypocrisy senses tingling!
    Well, if we were talking about a REAL fencing sim, where a split-second difference can mean win or lose - ok, I agree. It means that very few people will be able to play the game at all.
    That’s like making a game only people like photographic memory and/or IQ more then 200 will be able to play.
    But I doubt that Oblivion combat will be THIS twitch-based.
    I mean, you have only blocking, not deflecting, and I already noted that only rogues will depend on heavy dodging in combat... and not that rogues are bound to fight at all!
    Remeber Thief... combat there was a sign that you failed somewhere in you planning, let yourself be seen, failed to kill your mark in one ranget shot, etc.
    ...
    Hmm, ok, I'm wrong. 'Ninja'-types will get a lot of twitch indeed.
    Oh well, slow-mo from MWE (I really hope that it, or equivalent will be ported to Oblivion) will help a lot even for the lame-handed among us, that want to play ninjas out of inferiority complex :D.

    Anyway, to sum it up, I understand people wanting 'no player skills involved at all' combat. I was bitching about 'using your own skills is TEH BEST roleplay in STALKER' too, yet I like manual combat controls and have fast enough reflexes, therefore I, being a selfish bastard, welcome the change in combat. :twisted:
     
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  22. Screaming_life Liturgist

    Screaming_life
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    or just perform a "perfect block" - block animation with zero damage to npc and shield. Block animations can be played quickly so you should have enough time to play it.
     
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  23. Chefe Erudite

    Chefe
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    I haven't forgot that this game is realtime. I have no problem with real time. Don't take the word 'simply' too literally now, because I do know that anything requires work. What I meant was it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out another feasable way to do it.

    Let's say you're fighing Bob the Battlemage. Your longsword (oh sorry, blade) skill is around the 30's. You go up against Bob and strike. However, you're to-hit misses, and Bob at that second is not currently casting a spell or attacking so he plays an animation of him using his shield to block. Since you missed the roll, his shield doesn't take any damage. Now, let's say Bob gets ready to cast a spell and you strike while he's in the middle of his spell. You miss again, and it shows Bob stepping back or to the side a few paces as if he was dodging your attack.

    Now, Bob the Battlemage probably doesn't have good agility and speed, so having him quickly dodge your attacks would be a strange looking animation and wouldn't be very logical. The solution? You attack slower! You're not good with a sword yet, so your swings wouldn't be that fast anyway. This lets the animation play at a good pace, and it would seem like he is easily dodging your attacks because you suck. He starts kicking your ass and you run away. When your blade skill is level 80, you come back to see Bob. Bob's agility and speed are still the same, now dwarfed by your awesome swordsmanship. This fact, coupled by your high skill in blade, means it's rare that you'll miss your roll. There is still a chance that you do, making the battle more interesting, and he might jump back quickly when you swing.

    What about enemies missing their rolls against you? Just show them swinging thier sword wrong. They go to hit you, miss their roll, and you see them swing their sword to the side of you instead of directly at you.

    There doesn't have to be different dodges for different weapon types. I've never seen a game that did that. But hey, if someone could pull that off it would be really cool. It's not necessary though, simply moving back, to the side, or throwing up a shield would suffice.

    I thought Han Solo wasn't in the new ones...?
     
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  24. geminito Liturgist

    geminito
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    It sounds like Chef wants to play a turn-based RPG, not a real-time one. Dodge animations belong in turn-based games and MMORPG's which don't have anything close to realistic/twitch combat.

    The whole "dodge animation" thing wouldn't fool anyone. It would be exactly the same combat system as Morrowind, and that's something that Oblivion is intended to fix. Chef's solution would really really piss off fans. "Morrowind's combat system, now improved with more animations!"

    Awful.
     
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  25. Chefe Erudite

    Chefe
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    My, chico, did you not read what I posted? I said I know this is going to be real-time and I don't have a problem with it. What I do have a problem with is it becoming twitch-based gameplay similar to an FPS.

    It would be similar to Arena and Daggerfall, possibly Morrowind yes, but with much better animations. That's one of the main reasons why combat sucked in Morrowind, the animations were horrible. Good animations are the key here, just look at Arx Fatalis. Your sword can go through an enemy but you don't really notice because the animations are top-notch.

    Personally, I couldn't give two shits if my sword goes through an enemy. But, like I said, apparently a bunch of dumb console gamers (maybe like yourself) were shitting themselves because their sword went through a bad guy without doing damage.
     
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