Oblivion: What Will Be Missing?

[Balor]

@ MrSmileyFaceDude

*slaps his forehead*
Ok, ok, I get it already! However:

1. I'm NOT asking for source code or SDK in a way like Unreal or HL2 have.
2. I'm not asking (no modder, really, so much as I understand) a huge 'customer support' service that will answer calls and fix problems in real time.

What I (and all other modders) want is, at least SOME support. Not as extensive as one of HL2, but something, anything, besides hollow encouragement (it’s sure better then ‘cease and decease’, but...).
I guess, no denying that mods DID add to PC sells (and, most likely, Xbox sells too, just because of the game being 'alive' longer... + the fact that you can run mods on Xbox Morrowind, as it seems).
I'm quite sure that it worth assigning at least ONE man to maintain CS, (heck, it may be a part-time job) that will be responsible for collecting feedback about it's most glaring, yet easily fixed limitations, outright bugs, update plugings to major 3D modeling progs, listen to suggestions, etc.

He does not even have to collect all the data by himself - modders can cooperate by themselves, sorting the data needed for that in presentable fashion and then mailing to them, neatly summarized and categorized, similar to Oblivion CS wishlist... one you seem to largely ignore, though. The changes will be incorporated into patches or, heck, even addons, to add them more selling value! (And it will, I’m sure of it) I don't mind, it's a smart marketing move, if it gets you more money, fine. Will that use up a LOT of money? I'm 99.999% sure that it will actually give MORE money that it will use up.

You know, dunno how it is 'rotten western captalist countries', but in Russia, when developers are being friendly with customers and modders, frequent message boards not just to boast "How cool we are!", but to listen to suggestions, it adds a lot of FREE positive PR to the game.
Also, it adds a lot to the game itself. Take Space Rangers 2. It was made with a LOT of player suggestions in mind, it has a lot of fan-made content (quests), one of modders even ended among the developers!
Here is the result: SR2 review
It may be not really known abroad, but here in Russia, it's much more popular then Morrowind ever was, and got much higher scores. (Btw, on AG.ru, on of largest gaming sites of Russia, it has 96% rating - highest ever, with only Fallout close behind with 95%... ok, I correct myself - 95 now. But that's because of new system of giving out ratings, where you cannot give out 100% rating, only 99% is maximum , so it went down by one point, logically.).
So, reviewers give them better marks for that, because they know, if there are any bugs or omissions - they will be fixed, players and modders are ecstatic about being noticed and considered equals, not 'source of money to be exploited', and share their joy with others more readily, creating a lot of FREE 'viral marketing'.
Same goes for Apeiron... list goes on.

You may say that "Hey dude, you are wrong, I'm right here!". Right, but point me out to a few facts where you noted some good suggestion, thanked the player/modder who suggested it then went and implemented it? Yes, no? Well, in Elemental games, it happens almost on daily basis. So far, you, I'm sorry, you are not 'AI/spell implementer', but 'part-time PR guy'. Oh, I still remember you (or sorry if that wasn't you, but still some Bethsoft guy) gushing about 'how quests in Tribunal will be different, deeper, epic, etc". Uh huh.

Oh, and you know what? Mistland, one that created Paradise Cracked and got license for Jagged Alliance 3, is kind of infamous for being unfriendly to customers and such. Ask about how players feel about that, reviews their product gets, and how Ja2 lovers feel about the fact that they got the license, not some other development company. Funny coincidence, don't you think? You may say it's unrelated. You may be right, in a way. But it's all connected nonetheless.

So, is it THAT hard/expensive, in the end? Compared to all those people you have designing dungeons, making graphics, etc? Talking about ‘not trading anything for better graphics’! One part time programmer guy will bankrupt your game budget, that for sure. *rolls eyes*

Oh, and a small rebuttal about frequent posts by fanboys, that sounds like: “CS was good enough for Bethsoft, so it must be good enough for any modder”.
First, it’s logical fallacy.
Second (especially it comes to stuff like scripting, or adding new skills or other code-related issues), we, modders, don’t have access to source code, while Bethsoft employees, logically, are.
So, a lot of stuff gets hardcoded, and is never accessible for modders to mod!
So, adding new skill (I mean, properly add, with it registering in the skill list, affecting level, so on) is impossible for us, while it’s more then possible for devs.
And since all the ruckus with missing or rewamped skills, properly adding them would be a great feature.... and I even described briefly how it can be EASILY done... but I somehow doubt that it is will be done.
Same goes for mods that may require to mod gameplay setting ‘on the fly’... oh well, list goes on and on.
*sighs, remembering his countless hours of battling with CS, trying to go around it’s limitations... and failing more often then succeeding*

P.S.
All in all, better modding tools will result in a released game becoming better in long run. Better, bigger, more varied - which means covering broader audience, too.
But, as I see, you don’t want that. It may cost you a few thousand dollars ‘wasted’ on supporting modding community...

You don’t want game to be good. You only want more money for less effort.
You think I sound like a communist with ‘money is a root of all evil’?
No, you all in Bethsoft are being communists, I mean the how bloody stupid communistic regime became in the final years of USSR, caring nothing about it’s citizens or long-time profits, only about make short-term profit now, and ‘later the grass may not grow’.

Either you admit that you don’t “Want to create a great game that will, incidentally, sell out a lot of copies and give us big bucks”, but “We want to make as much money, but don’t give a damn about actual game, we are only making it as good as to sell it as much as possible”, or you are being a bunch of hypocrites.
There is a subtle difference here, you know.
I can understand both POVs. Both may come up with good games in the end.
But there is no way in hell I’ll respect those who follows second path. As simple as that.

And... as a P.P.S...
What can you say about Neverwinter Nights? Did they do made it to ‘market for licensing’ too?
I know, they did, btw, with the Witcher. But I doubt that it was their intention... they just wanted to make the modding tools right - and they did it. Good to a point they were asked to license it. (and btw, Witcher devs rewrote the graphics engine from scratch, so the fact that you licensed it yourself is non-issue).
And they support it, btw.
And some of their modules, I’m sure of it, did make a lot of people to buy the game, even if they’ll never had intention to play NWN campaign. Or hate ADnD guts. Like me, for instance.
What can you say about that?

 

[Chefe]

In Soviet Russia, game mods you!

 

[Micmu]

I see you are seriously pissed about the damn CS...
The point is, Oblivion is a console game. There's no editor for xbox. Why would they care supporting it? I wouldn't on their place either.

However, I'm wondering about quest/plot complexity. No string variables, no pointers, no lists+iterators... They'll probably try to keep the scripting down to minimum again.

 

[yipsl]

Here's a friendly hello from Beth's fans, in regard to teh uber humororz picktcher, enjoy:

Looks like a poor attempt at a joke made by self-proclaimed "real-rpg" hardcore fanboys. The small group of them will boycott the game and instead go over to one of the group's house (Most likely the member will have a name like Eugene) and play pen-and-paper rpgs, squeeze their zits, and talk about the exciting things that happened to them that day (like how a real-life woman asked one of them where the bus stop is) - all of which will be done with refreshments of celery and 1% milk. They will decide that all video games that don't have a 100% focus on dice-rolling are no good and not worth devoting time to (because they are not the "real-rpgs").

I replied to that guy's post with the following:

Tsk Tsk, and what will the 360 crowd do? They'll all go to their own houses, alone in their rooms, and send instant messages over Xbox Live that have the sort of odd abbreviations that are frowned upon on boards where people are expected to actually type and spell to the best of their ability. They will also all be named Chad.

And what will the FPS crowd do? They'll have a Lanparty and realize that Oblivion does not have multiplayer, so they'll end up cranking up F.E.A.R or Half Life 2, while they're waiting for Ubisoft to release "Half Life Two", aka Dark Messiah of Might and Magic They won't have any names, because their parents abandoned them and the orphanarium assigned them numbers.

If all the stereotypes were true, we'd all be in trouble. Me, I'm a CRPG old school gamer and my name's not Eugene. Some of us actually got married and are way past the zits phase. And we can also find Caius. Can you?

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... try2779870

After all, one good stereotype deserves another.

The last time someone did negative comments in a thread about RPG Codex, MSFD locked it and said there was no need for a flame war between boards. I can see his point, but some of the fanboys do deserve to have their noses tweaked.

I also pointed out that there, I'm a "complainer" but here I'm a fanboy. I guess I just have more hope for the series without actually putting on rose coloured glasses.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

I see you are seriously pissed about the damn CS...
The point is, Oblivion is a console game. There's no editor for xbox. Why would they care supporting it? I wouldn't on their place either.

However, I'm wondering about quest/plot complexity. No string variables, no pointers, no lists+iterators... They'll probably try to keep the scripting down to minimum again.

Oblivion is a PC game as well, and of course the TESCS will be shipping with it. And there are MORE scripting functions and lots of new things you can do with quests, dialogs, and NPCs in the editor. I'm not sure where you are getting the impression that we either won't ship the TESCS with the PC version (when we've explicitly said that we would) or that scripting would be dumbed down.

 

[yipsl]

It's not arrogance. It's not pride. It's not greed. It's just a game-centered business model, rather than an engine-centered one.

What replaces Mark and Recall in the magic system? If nothing in the magic system replaces it, then what replaces it in the non-magic portion of the game? If you can't answer this, then please state that you cannot discuss it at this time.

I'm curious as to what's going on with no mark and no recall. It seems very odd to me, but just as recall from Daggerfall with an anchor and a teleport option morphed into the easier to get right mark and recall from Morrowind, perhaps those two spells are morphing into something easier in Oblivion?

No design decision info needed here, just a description of any magic that replaces the traditional teleport features in TES. If nothing magical replaces it, then let us know.

Thanks for info on the CS. I liked the screenshot of the CS dungeon in the last developer's diary. The Daggerfall style dungeons will be appreciated.

 

[Chefe]

The CS dungeon looked exactly like Morrowind's, and nothing like Daggerfall's, IMO.

magic?

I know the lockdown on releasing magic info will be coming to an end, I just don't know when. But when it does I will be able to answer specific questions.

I handled the truth, but can you?

 

[truekaiser]

I see you are seriously pissed about the damn CS...
The point is, Oblivion is a console game. There's no editor for xbox. Why would they care supporting it? I wouldn't on their place either.

However, I'm wondering about quest/plot complexity. No string variables, no pointers, no lists+iterators... They'll probably try to keep the scripting down to minimum again.

Oblivion is a PC game as well, and of course the TESCS will be shipping with it. And there are MORE scripting functions and lots of new things you can do with quests, dialogs, and NPCs in the editor. I'm not sure where you are getting the impression that we either won't ship the TESCS with the PC version (when we've explicitly said that we would) or that scripting would be dumbed down.

if i can't go as far as editing skills without useing a major hack that most of the time barely works while you can with ease add skills or remove them. then yes the cs is lobotomized.

 

[Balor]

I see you are seriously pissed about the damn CS...
The point is, Oblivion is a console game. There's no editor for xbox. Why would they care supporting it? I wouldn't on their place either.

However, I'm wondering about quest/plot complexity. No string variables, no pointers, no lists+iterators... They'll probably try to keep the scripting down to minimum again.

Oblivion is a PC game as well, and of course the TESCS will be shipping with it. And there are MORE scripting functions and lots of new things you can do with quests, dialogs, and NPCs in the editor. I'm not sure where you are getting the impression that we either won't ship the TESCS with the PC version (when we've explicitly said that we would) or that scripting would be dumbed down.

Hah! It can hardly be dumbed down further, it's as physically impossible as dumbing down combat in MW . (Btw, notice ‘keep to the minimum again’).
You think that scripting system in MW was complex? Try NWN. Not that I will mod NWN because it’s hateful ADnD and all, but if Morrowind had scripting at least HALF as good... *daydream*.

Anyway, I appreciate all the good new stuff that will be in it, I really do.
However, it's getting like 10% of what we asked and expected... and, as I feel (look at my above comments... and heh, there would be no comment about NWN, as I see? Truth burning tongue and so on?) we deserved. Like:
1. Strings (and allow entering text into game w/o use of some third-party programs). Oh, the possibilities!
2. Pointers (not C++ kind of memory pointers, but pointers at obj/NPC/etc instances...)
3. Arrays (and, logically, ways to quickly grab, say, all NPCs in the loaded area, all items in a container, etc, like "array Items = SomeContainer.Items", then Foreach Items... *use your wild imagination*)
4. Better documentation on new functions, no bugs, all functions accepting vars, as little hardcoding as it physically possible, etc, simply better support.

First three allow mods that will:
a. Do same stuff as we have now, but 1000% (add a few zeros to your taste) faster and easier.
b. 10x more stuff, which make current, even most sophisticated mods pale in comparison.
But we will not be getting that, like 99.999999999999999... oh, heck, let's save space and just write 100%.
Fourth is something that should be in the first place, really. Yet it wasn't. And, I fear, isn't.

You know, for some, CS was something they bought the game for.
Or, at least, something they'll buy Oblvion for.
Ignoring them is as much as ignoring players that bought the game because of the very game itself - not fixing bugs, not providing customer support, etc.
Of course, they are not so large in numbers, at least compared to Xbox crowd that will buy the game for impressive visuals.
But we are talking quality, not quantity here.
Or, again, you don't care WHO likes your game, but HOW much people like your game, cause it translates into hard cash?
I can understand this POV, again. But don't ask me to respect it. Simply because that's what porn industry based on, for instance. Or pop singers. Or any religion.

 

[Calis]

However, it's getting like 10% of what we asked and expected... and, as I feel (look at my above comments... and heh, there would be no comment about NWN, as I see? Truth burning tongue and so on?) we deserved.

Developers... owe... you... NOTHING.

 

[truekaiser]

However, it's getting like 10% of what we asked and expected... and, as I feel (look at my above comments... and heh, there would be no comment about NWN, as I see? Truth burning tongue and so on?) we deserved.

Developers... owe... you... NOTHING.

if we buy the game then they owe us what they claim they provide, all the tools they used to make the game.
they only owe us nothing if we do not buy the game.

 

[merry andrew]

if we buy the game then they owe us what they claim they provide, all the tools they used to make the game.

Not all the tools, just the toolset.

 

[Calis]

Yeah, what Merry Andrew said. According to MSFD, they released the toolset they created for their game. Now, admittedly, I've never made any serious attempts at creating a MW mod, but I really don't see how they owe you anything more than this with either MW or Oblivion. Assuming, of course, Bethesda developers don't have a SEK-RET stash of tools somewhere that they're gigglingly making a point of not releasing to the mod community. I doubt that's the case though.

 

[Chefe]

I think kaiser is just wanting some small extras in the TES, to make life a little easier on modders.

But in the way he is doing it, he's coming off as a jackass.

 

[Psilon]

On the one hand, I agree with Calis. Developers don't really owe the users anything in the way of mod capabilty.

On the other, I feel that games which tout modding support should bloody well offer decent modding support. It doesn't have to be as free-form as a licensable FPS engine (e.g., Unreal Tournament had a Tetris mod for its GUI), but it should be usable. Neverwinter was a step in the right direction, but its toolset was just as much a pain in the ass as Morrowind's. Limited toolsets aren't a big deal for the devs because they can harass the programming team into adding new features. This strategy obviously doesn't work for the users.

Why don't developers take one of the many macro/scripting languages and embed that? It can't be more work than writing and maintaining your own lexer, parser, compiler, and interpreter, unless your in-house scripting language is something truly minimalist. Lua's popular enough. Python's been used before (see: Freedom Force, ToEE, Bloodlines) to good effect. Hell, you could use Guile (a Scheme variant); it's GPL, but with an exemption that allows you to link it with non-free code without triggering the GPL's viral properties.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Yeah, what Merry Andrew said. According to MSFD, they released the toolset they created for their game. Now, admittedly, I've never made any serious attempts at creating a MW mod, but I really don't see how they owe you anything more than this with either MW or Oblivion. Assuming, of course, Bethesda developers don't have a SEK-RET stash of tools somewhere that they're gigglingly making a point of not releasing to the mod community. I doubt that's the case though.

It's nto a question of "owing". But I agree with Balor that Bethesda could increase their communication with the "mod-faction" of their fanbase. There were issues in teh beginning of MW modding that could have easily be resolved by Bethesda: The unknown animation format is maybe the best example. I think it took almost a year until people had figured out how to do animations correctly and it would have taken a Bethesda dev an hour to release that information. Facial animations were another (only released to Rhedd who has industry connections, of course). To his credit MSFD was among the few who ever posted in the mod forum. If nothing else it would be "nice" of them to provide some forum support, a way to bind a very dedicated part of their fanbase and an easy way to make the PC version as popular as possible ( I agree with Balor that the mods have extended the life and the player-base of MW for PC at least to some degree). To me it seems a good investment, but apparently people at Bethesda do not agree.

 

[merry andrew]

I've been under the impression that TESCS is a bonus item included with current TES games for the PC. Whining about how you want it to be betterer is somewhat like whining about wanting a more uber bonus Shield of Commitment with your pre-order of an MMORPG.

I don't even think the toolset is mentioned in the press release, so I really don't understand why so many 'improvements' are expected.

 

[Atrokkus]

if we buy the game then they owe us what they claim they provide, all the tools they used to make the game.
they only owe us nothing if we do not buy the game.

They owe you only those features that they announced and that the master-version has. They don't owe you things you would like to see, or things you would like to be different.

 

[Psilon]

Corollary: Everything in the documentation better be in, and better work.

This is one of the big let-downs in EVNova. About a third of the features listed in the Nova Bible (the plugin spec) don't actually work on the PC version. Destroying planets? Nope. Proper beam weapons? No, and in fact the game is ridiculously unbalanced because of it. (For weapons like the Thunderhead Lance, Mac damage is proportional to the number of Lances you have firing. On the PC, it's proportional to the square.)

 

[Tintin]

if we buy the game then they owe us what they claim they provide, all the tools they used to make the game.

...and that's exactly what you're getting. They used the TESCS to create the game, and you're getting those same tools.

What? Are you suggesting they pay 3dsmax a billion dollars so that they can ship 3dsmax with the TESCS too?

Did you actually ever plan to make mods or do you just like hating Oblivion?

 

[Psilon]

No, but exporters for a recent version of 3ds Max would be nice. You can't even buy 3ds Max v5 these days, let alone the Morrowind-supported releases (v3/v4). Alternately, since paying someone to maintain the exporter is pointless after release, why not release the model file formats? They're hardly a competitive advantage.

 

[syKo]

Well almost everyone around here thinks Bethsoft is this comletely awesome developer who basically shits gold, and i've just been saying it not true.

I don't have my hopes up for it simply because 3/5 edler scrolls games to date have sucked badly. Thats 66% complete crap under the ES name to me, those aren't very good odds. Oblivion to me has potential. nothing more nothing less.

Hype sucks! Halo 2 was crap compared to the hype. Fable was crap compared to the hype. Maybe it's a message from God. Don't listen to the fucking hype.

What if combat is nearly impossible in oblivion so you can't get anywhere in the game. Will it still be good then? no. what if it was so bug-ridden, you needed dozens of files just to be able to get out of prison. would it still be good then? no. We can't know whether this game will even be worth downloading off the internet illegally until it's out, so stop saying all this "ou know it's going to be awesome" crap. lol

The box sucks too. Im not a fan of the whole "fake wear-ed-ness" lol. They should have just put all the boxes in a giant rock tumbler together and there's not really any design on it...it's just a border around a white box... stupid as hell!

 

[Athame]

Repost:

*DELETED*

 

[Athame]

They want the PC sales as much as the 360, and they want the CRPG gamer as much as the FPS, so they will take feedback into account and correct mistakes, albeit imperfectly.

The hand placed objects in Morrowind were a mistake, but a correction of the sameness in Daggerfall. They finally seem to have gotten it right with Oblivion. The hope of TES hardcore CRPG fans is that they'll get to the point where they can use an engine that works, physics that works and middleware that works for several games, such that they can finally spend more time in the development cycle providing features that hardcore CRPG gamers want.

I knew a few people who had Morrowind on Xbox... their modded Xboxes! Not to mention that the 360 will have the ability to download mods!

And MSFD, I'm pretty sure we all know by now that Morrowind sold better on Xbox. That's common knowledge, which keeps getting repeated. Thing is, it had no freakin' competition! Still, 3-or-so years after its release there isn't any competent RPGs (pseudo-RPGs, technically) that can stand up to it. If you want an RPG and you have an Xbox, you either can choose a KOTOR (which kind of is an RPG), Fable (which has slightly similar characterists of an RPG), or Morrowind (which is a little more RPG than both).

2 MrSmileyFaceDude
All I ask is proper respect for modders - and not in terms of 'Yay, nice guys, bring it on!', but actually hearing their complains and improving the CS.
Is it REALLY that tough to add a few functions, for instance? Yet, in Tribunal you added only a handful of functions despite the constant pleas from modders. Even fever was added with Blood Moon, and some stuff was BROKEN.
Converters for more recent version of 3D Max were never released. Questions about animations were boggling modders for YEARS, before they were more or less answered... and I don't really recall if that was answer from Bethesda, either.
Despite all the pleas, no ways of adding new spell effects and skills were introduced, despite that it's EASY. (See above).
We, modders, DID help with at least PC sales. And a LOT, to be sure. I cannot judge with Xbox, but games on consoles usually sale much better anyway... not to mention comment from Drakron about it being one and only semi-decent RPG on Xbox, so no wonder a lot of people bought it. (And the hype, don't forget the hype!).
So, for a lot of people CS became much more fun then the actual game (and those are not so small in number), those people, cursing and sweating, yet happy in a masochist kind of way made mods that lured thousands of people into your nets... yet, you neglect it.

Hopefully what we’re witnessing here is the emergence of a new interest, new market and new possibilities. The console which has been the nemesis of the hardcore CRPGer and modder, may turn around and become his best friend. If those console gamers fall in love with Oblivion as they did with Morrowind and they see how much content they can download in the form of mods, perhaps a great interest in mods for the console will cause the devs to rethink the functionality and compatibility with third party software for the CS.

All those console edition sales MSFD talks about coupled with console players’ interest in mods may just be the break everyone’s been looking for. One could hope and dream at least.

I am very pleased that Daggerfall type holidays (festivals) are planned as an official content release for X-Boxers. I would presume that that extends to PC users as well?

 

[syKo]

Hopefully what we’re witnessing here is the emergence of a new interest, new market and new possibilities. The console which has been the nemesis of the hardcore CRPGer and modder, may turn around and become his best friend. If those console gamers fall in love with Oblivion as they did with Morrowind and they see how much content they can download in the form of mods, perhaps a great interest in mods for the console will cause the devs to rethink the functionality and compatibility with third party software for the CS.

U mean like the dumbed down market for dumbasses who play their xboxes and ps2s cause they think its totally kewl? i dont want to see pc games get dumbed down for teh sake of stupid console gamers and ports like morrowind and invisible war and fable are obvous examples of dumbing down for the console so oblivion is just gonna be another crappy multiport game with shitty gameplay and crap for an interface

All those console edition sales MSFD talks about coupled with console players’ interest in mods may just be the break everyone’s been looking for. One could hope and dream at least.

only a fanboy would hope and dream cuz those who get with reality know that oblivion is gonna suck so why does betheda keep bothering to prolong their stupid hopes? does bethesda jack off on the idea?

I am very pleased that Daggerfall type holidays (festivals) are planned as an official content release for X-Boxers. I would presume that that extends to PC users as well

lol who gives a FUCKING SHIT about holiday festivals in a game. get a life lol