Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[hiver]

but hey, people like hiver were insulting the intelligence of people who like modern mechanics in their games a few pages back

More invented blanket statements that you cannot prove? And you talk for "people" now?

I think its more visible whose intelligence i have insulted (caused butthurt) - and rightly so, as it turns out.


- in before:
"oh hiver can you stop this pleeeeaseee?"

 

[Rake]

that the choice in entairtainment doesn't make one better than the other while it was you that started the insults.

That was the idea behind my first post, and yes it was an indirect insult, but hey, people like hiver were insulting the intelligence of people who like modern mechanics in their games a few pages back, I don't see why I can't insult people like hiver with my post afterwards. Fight poop-flinging with poop-flinging.

I never said you can't insult him, in the Codex no less. Just don't cry when he insults you back.
You should had sticked to your guns and insult him even more... it would be more amusing to watch.

 

[Ninjerk]

that the choice in entairtainment doesn't make one better than the other while it was you that started the insults.

That was the idea behind my first post, and yes it was an indirect insult, but hey, people like hiver were insulting the intelligence of people who like modern mechanics in their games a few pages back, I don't see why I can't insult people like hiver with my post afterwards. Fight poop-flinging with poop-flinging.

Soooo... you're a hypocrite.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

that the choice in entairtainment doesn't make one better than the other while it was you that started the insults.

That was the idea behind my first post, and yes it was an indirect insult, but hey, people like hiver were insulting the intelligence of people who like modern mechanics in their games a few pages back, I don't see why I can't insult people like hiver with my post afterwards. Fight poop-flinging with poop-flinging.

hiver called you shit directly instead of being a faggot like you. Why so butthurt? You started it.

And please go enjoy your modern mechanics in DA2 and Diablo 3. I prefer bitching about them

 

[Liston]

Oh cry me a river.

I was using the terminology presented in the thread. It wasn't long before you started judging my intentions, huh?

I was out of line, I apologize.

Have I said it wasn't? No, I don't believe I have. I believe I said it wasn't the only important part. But I guess that you know that already and are just deliberately being dishonest. Your lists offer only functionality, and as is argued here, it is not a strict Best Contender. Even if it was, it fails at everything else. It is a necessary evil in games with an over-abundance of items only.

What does list inherently lacks? You said readability but failed to address my counter-argument. Also, usefulness (or rather necessity) of lists isn't directly dependent on itemization but rather on the number of items in the inventory so I don't think that it's fair to say that lists are necessary only in bad systems. If you have party stash like in PE it could be easy to have too much items in there even if they copied weapons from BG, furthermore there are other types of items beside equitable ones for example Witcher games would gain a lot by good list inventory because of the amount of crafting items (IIRC you liked crafting in Witcher games).

You missed usefulness of sorted lists. The idea isn't to chose the best item for you just by sorting by one attribute although that can be handy in almost any crpg in certain circumstances. The main advantage comes from ease of search through sorted lists, you only have to remember an approximate value of one of the attributes of an item in relation to the rest to find it easily ie is it among the most valuable ones, among the heaviest, does it have relatively low AC ect.

Lastly I never argued that lists are the best choice in all circumstances, that was your simplification of the debate by grouping everyone who doesn't agree with you in to "funcionalists". I also prefer look and feel of grid inventory and in some cases advantages of list are almost non existent, but since I don't really give a shit about look and feel of an UI i prefer lists wherever they would bring better functionality.

 

[hiver]

Liston

re-post, with flowery language largely removed:

The argument that a "list" is better because it can show (not that it does every time) information and is therefore better then the grid is nonsense.
The grid itself is only good because you see many, many items all together at once - and you see the actual items - not a fucking text list.


Thats what inventory should show. It should show you your items - not a textual list of those items.
And thats the actual point here. Not just having a "grid" or showing information.
You know why "showing the information" is not a feature or advantage unique to a fucking list?

BECAUSE - all that information can be shown on the icon-picture of actual items or in additional small window where all details can be presented when you click on the item you want to inspect.
Just like in Fallout, just like in AoD.

And that is a singular unique advantage of the so called "grid" system, - a system that shows you your fucking items instead of a text list - YOU DONT NEED TO CLICK EVERY FUCKING ITEM BECAUSE YOU INSTANTLY SEE THE ONE YOU WANT.
Those items can be shown in a grid, or a seemingly open endless space, or ordered in a scrollable single line like they were in Fallout. (easily extended to more lines or space).
Grid is not the point itself.

RIDDLE ME THIS:

What is better and why?

Gold badge ....... - or -

Crimson Eye ...... - or -

Dimension Glove ..... - or -

Power Nullifier ...... - or -

Which of these helps strengthen the setting? Which of these strengthens the theme, the style, the art, the atmosphere? Which is therefore more immersive?
Which is more impressive and enjoyable? Which one if more beautiful?
Which one makes you feel you actually got/found/stolen something valuable? Something palpable? Something you could hold with your hands?




Which inventory makes you feel like you are handling and inspecting actual ITEMS?

This:

and this:

or a fucking text list?

 

[Night Goat]

Hahaha, okay, yet it's the best competitive e-sport at the moment. Most of the best e-sports came from mods or starting up independent companies, not people who sperg about 'perfect design' and try to be accommodating to all players.

Uses the term "e-sport" unironically.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

IMHO it's kind of okay for diablo-like grind/lootfest, but has no place in a regular RPG. The moment you break items down to "+1% critical chance and +2 DPS", you're removing any value they individually possess and turning them into mere chunks of stats, that obviously are better sorted in a excel sheet. Sure, you get tons more items, but I can't recall any of the conuntless items in Diablo III or Borderlands that are are cool or memorable as Lilacor, Carsomyr or pretty much any of the weapons in Baldur's Gate.

But like SCO said, you can sugarcoat it all you want but they are a collection of stats. The reason the BG items you named felt more interesting than the countless Diablo III ones is that they have lots of conditional effects which are almost impossible to categorize (if enemy is neutral evil and if wielder is midget then 20% chance of doing 1-4 fire damage), not because they have some sort of special je ne sais quoi or whatever that goes beyond these stats. Which is why I can get your point when it comes to games with magical items that can have these types of conditional effects. But when there isn't any magic involved then these conditionals dissappear from the picture, and you just have general values (preferably a lot more than in borderlands) that can get categorized easily. And if you have a lot of these stats, then being able to sort and compare becomes a lot more important and simply rightclicking icons for details doesn't cut it, like in FM games. Do I get your point correctly that FM games have a shitty system because they have a crapload of stats, Grunker? Probably not, but I didn't see your point.

 

[Liston]

hiver
I already said that lists don't have good look and feel, or at least not as good as other inventories. I just don't care about look and feel, It's neat for the the first hour or so after witch I stop noticing it and functionality becomes more important. It's all a matter of personal preference.

Edit: Just to mention that you can put icons in lists, but it becomes a problem if you want big nice icons.

 

[hiver]

what i posted isnt based on "look" or "feel" and that is rather clear.

i was expecting such cheap attempt to obfuscate the matter, btw.

answer the riddle.

 

[Liston]

hiver I don't understand your riddle, you just posted a bunch of icons. What does that have to do with anything?

Which of these helps strengthen the setting? Which of these strengthens the theme, the style, the art, the atmosphere? Which is therefore more immersive?
Which is more impressive and enjoyable? Which one if more beautiful?
Which one makes you feel you actually got/found/stolen something valuable? Something palpable? Something you could hold with your hands?

Those are all a subject of look and feel of the UI.

 

[hiver]

I don't understand your riddle, you just posted a bunch of icons. What does that have to do with anything?

Well, i guess it is true guys. We are smarter and better.

Those are all a subject of look and feel of the UI.

Yep, thats a smart thing to state after you just admitted you dont even understand the question or anything clearly and directly explained to you in it.

Funny isnt it, when you consider who among the posters is defending lists.

 

[Lancehead]

But like SCO said, you can sugarcoat it all you want but they are a collection of stats. The reason the BG items you named felt more interesting than the countless Diablo III ones is that they have lots of conditional effects which are almost impossible to categorize (if enemy is neutral evil and if wielder is midget then 20% chance of doing 1-4 fire damage), not because they have some sort of special je ne sais quoi or whatever that goes beyond these stats. Which is why I can get your point when it comes to games with magical items that can have these types of conditional effects. But when there isn't any magic involved then these conditionals dissappear from the picture, and you just have general values (preferably a lot more than in borderlands) that can get categorized easily. And if you have a lot of these stats, then being able to sort and compare becomes a lot more important and simply rightclicking icons for details doesn't cut it, like in FM games. Do I get your point correctly that FM games have a shitty system because they have a crapload of stats, Grunker? Probably not, but I didn't see your point.

With special effects, what you can do is make them searchable. But such a feature is largely useless unless you're swimming in magical items so that you may have multiple items sharing a similar effect. Otherwise, simply inspecting is a more economical thing to do, both in lists and grids.

 

[Grunker]

Oh cry me a river.

I was using the terminology presented in the thread. It wasn't long before you started judging my intentions, huh?

I was out of line, I apologize.

Have I said it wasn't? No, I don't believe I have. I believe I said it wasn't the only important part. But I guess that you know that already and are just deliberately being dishonest. Your lists offer only functionality, and as is argued here, it is not a strict Best Contender. Even if it was, it fails at everything else. It is a necessary evil in games with an over-abundance of items only.

What does list inherently lacks? You said readability but failed to address my counter-argument. Also, usefulness (or rather necessity) of lists isn't directly dependent on itemization but rather on the number of items in the inventory so I don't think that it's fair to say that lists are necessary only in bad systems. If you have party stash like in PE it could be easy to have too much items in there even if they copied weapons from BG, furthermore there are other types of items beside equitable ones for example Witcher games would gain a lot by good list inventory because of the amount of crafting items (IIRC you liked crafting in Witcher games). If you claim that names on a long list of items don't blend together for you in SkyUI, you are either lying through your teeth to defend the argument, or you are a paragon of optic categorizing.

You missed usefulness of sorted lists. The idea isn't to chose the best item for you just by sorting by one attribute although that can be handy in almost any crpg in certain circumstances. The main advantage comes from ease of search through sorted lists, you only have to remember an approximate value of one of the attributes of an item in relation to the rest to find it easily ie is it among the most valuable ones, among the heaviest, does it have relatively low AC ect.

Lastly I never argued that lists are the best choice in all circumstances, that was your simplification of the debate by grouping everyone who doesn't agree with you in to "funcionalists". I also prefer look and feel of grid inventory and in some cases advantages of list are almost non existent, but since I don't really give a shit about look and feel of an UI i prefer lists wherever they would bring better functionality.

Dude, all of this is answered. I can understand if you don't want to read the pages that have come and gone since you posted, but all of your arguments were answered.

You might, like Excidium, choose to hold your belief that Windows Explorer makes for a better inventory than a grid, even with the discussion we just went through. Again. I hold that the grid accomplishes every single thing that Windows Explorer does and simultaneous has three advantages: 1) it is easier to get an overview (instant icon recogniztion > reading of seperate item names), 2) aesthetically much, much more pleasing and provides further options, 3) fits better with an inventory window.

Now, the concession I did make is that if you have tons of junk items, lists like SkyUI is pretty much all you have available. Like Infinitron pointed out, the system must fit to the content. But if you have the option of using a grid, I question why you would ever use a list. In the IE games there are no disadvantages with the grid, except for autosorting, and autosorting is of pretty limited use when you have so few items in your pack.

 

[Liston]

Grunker

Just felt like it was a common cutesy since I couldn't reply yesterday, it was probably a bad idea since I couldn't be bothered to read everything that was said.

 

[Grunker]

IMHO it's kind of okay for diablo-like grind/lootfest, but has no place in a regular RPG. The moment you break items down to "+1% critical chance and +2 DPS", you're removing any value they individually possess and turning them into mere chunks of stats, that obviously are better sorted in a excel sheet. Sure, you get tons more items, but I can't recall any of the conuntless items in Diablo III or Borderlands that are are cool or memorable as Lilacor, Carsomyr or pretty much any of the weapons in Baldur's Gate.

But like SCO said, you can sugarcoat it all you want but they are a collection of stats. The reason the BG items you named felt more interesting than the countless Diablo III ones is that they have lots of conditional effects which are almost impossible to categorize (if enemy is neutral evil and if wielder is midget then 20% chance of doing 1-4 fire damage), not because they have some sort of special je ne sais quoi or whatever that goes beyond these stats. Which is why I can get your point when it comes to games with magical items that can have these types of conditional effects. But when there isn't any magic involved then these conditionals dissappear from the picture, and you just have general values (preferably a lot more than in borderlands) that can get categorized easily. And if you have a lot of these stats, then being able to sort and compare becomes a lot more important and simply rightclicking icons for details doesn't cut it, like in FM games. Do I get your point correctly that FM games have a shitty system because they have a crapload of stats, Grunker? Probably not, but I didn't see your point.

Firstly, to your point on non-linear item progression: You're missing the point. It's not that the item effects are conditional or magical, it is that they're non-linear. For non-magical settings, one handgun could have a sniping mod and one could have an extended clip. One blade could be weighted well for cutting through metal (damage bonus vs. robots?) and one has an armor-piercing mod. And by the way, it's not that linear item progression is bad (sometimes it's cool to find a weapon that is strictly more awesome than your current one!) it is that it should be diverse, so that you rarely find strict upgrades and often find different styles. Take my examples of Celestial Fury vs. The Wave. Both of the weapons have a bunch of abilities that are not conditional, yet they cannot be meaningfully mathematically differantiated. The Wave makes up for its weakenesses by being +4 in comparison to Celestial Fury.

Like with the inventory, the systems are slaves to the content though. Diablo and Borderlands can't have non-linear progression because it's obviously way, way harder to make a bunch of mechanically different items instead of a wave of +X to one stat or whatever, items. And those games are all about item progression. But Fallout games? Medieval realistic RPGs? These games have no excuse for linear item progression.

Secondly, My point about FM was it with all the stats it has (and it is awesome that it has them) it MUST also have a system to meaningfully compare players, because unlike Baldur's Gate where you can easily remember 1 or 3 effects in addition to cold stats, Football Manager has TONS and TONS of stats and verbal notations. You simply CANNOT read one player, close his tabs, and read another. Therefore, again, the system is slave to the content. Baldur's Gate can afford to have right-click menu, Football Manager must have a kind of sucky comparison-mode which by God it takes a while getting used to.

(Infinitron is obviously wrong when he says systems cannot vary in quality in relation to each other and it is all about the content, but he is right when he says the content determines which systems fit your game - in effect, which systems you can "choose" between... obviously not factoring in ingenious new invention of systems)

Grunker

Just felt like it was a common cutesy since I couldn't reply yesterday, it was probably a bad idea since I couldn't be bothered to read everything that was said.

It's 'k. I appreciate the courtesy and am sorry if I insulted you as well.

 

[Xeon]

They originally wanted to make SkyUI a little different but couldn't so they did the best they could I think.

 

[Grunker]

They originally wanted to make SkyUI a little different but couldn't so they did the best they could I think.

Was that a comment to me? My entire point in this thread is that SkyUI is probably very close to "as good as it can get" for the game. It still has very big weaknesses inherent to list inventories however.

On a related note I wonder whether Excidium and Liston has all their explorer settings set to list, even folders with very few files in them?

 

[felipepepe]

Now, the concession I did make is that if you have tons of junk items, lists like SkyUI is pretty much all you have available. Like Infinitron pointed out, the system must fit to the content. But if you have the option of using a grid, I question why you would ever use a list. In the IE games there are no disadvantages with the grid, except for autosorting, and autosorting is of pretty limited use when you have so few items in your pack.

But remember, Sykrim has shitloads of stuff and you only have one inventory to manage... the moment you move to various party menbers & inventories - like in W2 - the instant recognition of icons is pretty much a necessity, or you'll be scrolling through 6 inventories like a retard trying to find that one thing you need.

 

[Grunker]

Now, the concession I did make is that if you have tons of junk items, lists like SkyUI is pretty much all you have available. Like Infinitron pointed out, the system must fit to the content. But if you have the option of using a grid, I question why you would ever use a list. In the IE games there are no disadvantages with the grid, except for autosorting, and autosorting is of pretty limited use when you have so few items in your pack.

But remember, Sykrim has shitloads of stuff and you only have one inventory to manage... the moment you move to various partu menbers & inventories, like in W2, the instant recognition of icons is pretty much a necessity, or you'll be scrolling through 6 inventories like a retard trying to find that one thing you need.

I made this point earlier as well. Lists have the additional inherent weakness that in party games you need a shared inventory if you use list inventory, for the exact reasons you mentioned, and shared inventory sucks.

 

[Sensuki]

do not own/have never played Skyrim. I think I win

 

[Liston]

On a related note I wonder whether Excidium and Liston has all their explorer settings set to list, even folders with very few files in them?

Actually yes I do, with the exception of folders that contain a lot of pictures. I understand why look and feel in games is important to so many people, but I can't understand why somebody would sacrifice usability of tools they use on daily bases.

 

[Grunker]

do not own/have never played Skyrim. I think I win

can't argue with that

On a related note I wonder whether Excidium and Liston has all their explorer settings set to list, even folders with very few files in them?

Actually yes I do, with the exception of folders that contain a lot of pictures. I understand why look and feel in games is important to so many people, but I can't understand why somebody would sacrifice usability of tools they use on daily bases.

Duuuuuude, did you even read my posts? Most people cannot get fast overviews with a glance when they deal with a blurry list. I use icons in the folders where it is possible because it has more usability.

 

[Lancehead]

But remember, Sykrim has shitloads of stuff and you only have one inventory to manage... the moment you move to various party menbers & inventories - like in W2 - the instant recognition of icons is pretty much a necessity, or you'll be scrolling through 6 inventories like a retard trying to find that one thing you need.

Spoiler

I find those icons pretty easily recongnisable.

I made this point earlier as well. Lists have the additional inherent weakness that in party games you need a shared inventory if you use list inventory, for the exact reasons you mentioned, and shared inventory sucks.

Uh, no. There's nothing preventing you from making separate inventories. I hope you noticed that you can switch between vendor and pc inventories in Skyrim.

 

[hiver]

On a related note I wonder whether Excidium and Liston has all their explorer settings set to list, even folders with very few files in them?

Actually yes I do, with the exception of folders that contain a lot of pictures. I understand why look and feel in games is important to so many people, but I can't understand why somebody would sacrifice usability of tools they use on daily bases.

Are you actually that stupid or your brain just automatically blocks out anything not conforming with your views?

- nevermind... rhetorical -