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In Progress Odin demands blood! Let's revive the Viking Age in Crusader Kings 2!

Self-Ejected

Ulminati

Kamelåså!
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If this doesn't move on soon I'm going to start rounding up animals to sacrifice to Odin in the hopes that it might help. I'm serious, think of the kittens. Don't make me do it.

 

newcomer

Learned
Joined
May 23, 2012
Messages
919
I had this properly monocled imperial sequence written up very prettily, but I lost it to a system crash. Anyway, no bellicose pontificaters or kitten violence necessary, although the rest of this weekend looks pretty bad. I'll aim for early-mid next week.

Well, why don't we visit Maer herself to ask for the status of the update?

Hang on, is there a fever of stars & moon banner all across Europe?

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And more importantly, who is this peasant who claims to be a king?

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Oh my, I forgot that the Jihad was successful...
Surprisingly, the birthplace of Jarl Thord is still vigorously defending the Norse faith, despite pressures from both the Great Caliph and the filthy Christians

scaled.php

Although I cannot say that they are still true norsemen :smug:

scaled.php
 

Jaedar

Arcane
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Aug 5, 2009
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9,838
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
F7vre.jpg

Z9MVf.png

Why do I feel like forming the democratic kingdom of Russia was a bad idea?
 

newcomer

Learned
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May 23, 2012
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Oh, that's the cursed "too many duchies held" penalty! You are only allowed to hold 2 of them to avoid penalty (and the elector title penalty comes because you hold too many duchies AND is elective, if you change to non-elective it will disappear).

Solution for now: don't create duchy if you plan to hold the land, they're just going to slow your conquest down. If you do want to create them, make sure you give them to someone else (and give that person the lands associated to that duchy also)

A bit confusing IMO, coz you are allowed to hold as many kingdom titles as you want but you cannot hold more than 2 duchy...
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
Yes, that one is a bit baffling: It's perfectly okay to be Emperor of Somethings, King of Everything; it's perfectly okay to be Duke Of Everything; but it's not okay to be King/Emperor of Somethings, Duke of More Than Two Things. Why are Duchies somehow magical?

Incidentally, I wonder how playable it is to be simply Baron Of Nearly Everything and how well you can operate at 0% demesne efficency, preventing revolts of the few underlings you have by keeping them permanently imprisoned. Since you are massively hated anyway, you could do all of the Tyrannical things you want.
 

Kayerts

Arcane
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
883
Yes, that one is a bit baffling: It's perfectly okay to be Emperor of Somethings, King of Everything; it's perfectly okay to be Duke Of Everything; but it's not okay to be King/Emperor of Somethings, Duke of More Than Two Things. Why are Duchies somehow magical?

I think it was a hamfisted attempt to model medieval politics, except only really implemented at a kingdom level. The idea is that nation-states weren't a thing in the medieval era, and that the nobles of a kingdom will resist efforts to concentrate too much absolute power in the hands of a single ruler, be he king or otherwise. And there were plenty of historical examples of pushback of this sort to go off of.

There weren't enough long-running multikings to have enough to model at that level, though, so Paradox doesn't even try--once you hit that level, you are off the historical grid.

Incidentally, I wonder how playable it is to be simply Baron Of Nearly Everything and how well you can operate at 0% demesne efficency, preventing revolts of the few underlings you have by keeping them permanently imprisoned. Since you are massively hated anyway, you could do all of the Tyrannical things you want.


It works pretty well at small scales, and seizing your subsidiary holdings is in fact one way for a single-county player to gain a military advantage for early conquests. I was the Count of Everything for a while in a southern Italy game, and it worked well. But the inefficiency gets to be an issue with larger realms, especially if you're holy warring.
 

newcomer

Learned
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There weren't enough long-running multikings to have enough to model at that level, though, so Paradox doesn't even try--once you hit that level, you are off the historical grid.

I think there is at least one in Spain (Castille, Leon, Andalusia) & the ruler married with the ruler of Aragon, which results in modern-day Spain
And at some point the king of England is also the king of Ireland>

so maybe Paradox can take those 2 as example? And it seems holding multi kingdom is fine?
 

Kayerts

Arcane
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Jan 28, 2011
Messages
883
Yeah, now that I think about it, my earlier statement was just wrong. (There was also Sweden and Finland, and later the Kalmar Union. And Hungary and Croatia were a union for most of the medieval age. And the HRE and Sicily, too. And the HRE itself was arguably a multikingdom. And there was early Poland-Lithuania, and possibly some other things I'm forgetting.) Well, beats me why duchies are magical, then.
 

Norfleet

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Messages
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Yeah, now that I think about it, my earlier statement was just wrong. (There was also Sweden and Finland, and later the Kalmar Union. And Hungary and Croatia were a union for most of the medieval age. And the HRE and Sicily, too. And the HRE itself was arguably a multikingdom. And there was early Poland-Lithuania, and possibly some other things I'm forgetting.) Well, beats me why duchies are magical, then.
Well, this mostly covers why there ISN'T a multikingdom penalty, anyway, since otherwise it would be impossible to have Spain, but still doesn't adequately explain the magical properties of Duchies, and why it is acceptable to be Duke of Everything as long as you are not King/Emperor of anything, but instantly NOT okay when you change nothing except declaring yourself King.
 
Self-Ejected

Ulminati

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Yeah, now that I think about it, my earlier statement was just wrong. (There was also Sweden and Finland, and later the Kalmar Union. And Hungary and Croatia were a union for most of the medieval age. And the HRE and Sicily, too. And the HRE itself was arguably a multikingdom. And there was early Poland-Lithuania, and possibly some other things I'm forgetting.) Well, beats me why duchies are magical, then.
Well, this mostly covers why there ISN'T a multikingdom penalty, anyway, since otherwise it would be impossible to have Spain, but still doesn't adequately explain the magical properties of Duchies, and why it is acceptable to be Duke of Everything as long as you are not King/Emperor of anything, but instantly NOT okay when you change nothing except declaring yourself King.

I suppose if the multiduchy penalty is simulating the nobles natural resentment towards consolidating too much power on one person it could be explained thusly: A multiduke under a king is beholden to someone above him who could, theoretically, rein him in if he was so inclined. A king is not beholden to anyone and as such could use his multiduchies to squash nobles under his tyrannical bootheels. It's a flimsy paper shield of an excuse but it's the most logical I could think of with the way mechanics are currently implemented.
 

Luzur

Good Sir
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Feb 12, 2009
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Swedish Empire
.....well, yeah that would work too, only problem is that i would prob loose a couple of provinces more then the ones i want to loose if that path is taken.

i may dwarf the HRE in landmass, but i can only field half of their total number of troops, and think of the vassalage hell i would sink down into if i would come out victorious from such an endevour.

funny thing is i actually had a Claim the Whole Thing casus belli on the HRE back when i invaded Denmark.

It is fun... in its own way...
This is the situation I'm in: with ~1.8k holdings, I command 23 vassal kings and hold ~20 king titles myself (I think 4 of them titular), I actually used the level 2 speed almost all the time, timing my actions days after the last one finished (plots, vassalage, wars, siege rush), and even when I want to speed up there will most likely be ~3 rebellion popups every month, or disease outbreak... Score-wise, I'm already 160k, way "above the Capet house", but the micromanagement hell...
Now that I think of it, I guess I spent a majority of my time distributing demense to vassals...

Oh, did I mention that all the vassal kings are of my dynasty? In fact, all vassal dukes & kings, both direct, and indirect, are of my dynasty. My dynasty has almost 900 members & 680 of them are still alive... 5k family prestige, and all my vassals are entangled in alliance web, so if one vassal declares war (such as holy war) it is equivalent to be in war with half of my country...

well that wont be necessary anymore, i got a "i need your vote on a heir" from the Emperor (i get these every now and then) and after checking the nominee list i noticed that i was third in line of the Throne of HRE (no idea there either, i know i LOL voted for my self years ago..), so after some knifes in the dark and poison in the food, Torbjörn II The Conquerer of house Borin was elected Imperator Romanus Sacer.

21jszf9.jpg


and the World of Today:

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and funny thing is my son currently got 10 votes to be next Emperor too, so i guess my family line will continue to be Emperor for quite some time.
 
Self-Ejected

Ulminati

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A county in denmark, a county in norway, a handful of counties in poland... Then your font size will be truly majestic.
 

Kayerts

Arcane
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
883
Well done! As far as I can tell, some nobles will vote alongside the ruler if they like him enough (or perhaps if they like him sufficiently more than their natural candidate). Torbjörn the Conqueror presumably has prestige out the ass from his conquest, so that probably helps.

Well, beats me why duchies are magical, then.
So I searched google images for "magic duchies" and it produced this handy diagram which I feel adequately explains everything:

Now that it's laid out like that, it seems so obvious. Why didn't we see it sooner?
 

Saark

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A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Concerning the magical properties of duchies, I think it has something to do with elective succession, which I guess almost everyone uses. Usually, every duke gets a vote, so holding more than one or two would give you more votes than people are willing to grant you, since it would make it way 'easier' to ensure your dynasty keeps everything. The thing that baffles me, is that you still only hold one vote in the election, and that most likely comes from you being king. Maybe it's a feature that's not fully implemented yet, or maybe they don't want you to hold too many duchies so there is still enough votes from all dukes in your kingdom.

Really looking forward to the muslim expansion, there's some sweet changes coming.
 

Kayerts

Arcane
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Jan 28, 2011
Messages
883
Ah, no--the relations penalty for having too many ducal titles is applied even without elective; elective adds an additional penalty on top of that. I do agree that one-man, one-vote is a little weird, but it's not totally absurd--the historical HRE, for example, raised a huge stink when there were two Kurfursten (prince-electors) from the same dynasty.

I think the logic behind the penalty is that you're impeding the rightful balancing function of the college of electors, which doesn't strike me as prima facie unreasonable. It's silly that you can solve that situation by handing out duchies to your chosen successor, though.

Edit: Although I'm told actually that happened with Hanover the HRE, and they gave the double-prince two votes. So yeah, I don't know what Pdox was thinking.
 

Saark

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A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Well, I personally never had any problems and I never hand out duchies to dynasty members. As long as there isn't some Jarl with like 4 or 5 Duchy titles, everything goes according to plan.

Didn't know about the penalty outside of elective, would have made more sense if it only existed there, since having too many votes based on ducal titles would really piss off those who only have a single vote.
 

newcomer

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May 23, 2012
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well that wont be necessary anymore, i got a "i need your vote on a heir" from the Emperor (i get these every now and then) and after checking the nominee list i noticed that i was third in line of the Throne of HRE (no idea there either, i know i LOL voted for my self years ago..), so after some knifes in the dark and poison in the food, Torbjörn II The Conquerer of house Borin was elected Imperator Romanus Sacer.

:bravo:

I guess the only advice I can give you here is... don't ragequit if events pop ups every few seconds after entering maximum speed... Instead uphold the spirit of steamrolling & unite the entire map under the Reichsadler!

Well, I personally never had any problems and I never hand out duchies to dynasty members. As long as there isn't some Jarl with like 4 or 5 Duchy titles, everything goes according to plan.

Didn't know about the penalty outside of elective, would have made more sense if it only existed there, since having too many votes based on ducal titles would really piss off those who only have a single vote.

If you notice the penalty Jaedar is getting, there is a massive -120 for "electoral titles held", this is the effect of holding too many duchies under elective. Holding too many duchies itself has its own penalty. I guess the penalty arises from what Ulminati mentioned, a hypothetical "tyrant" king...

I also hate duchies; I never create them if I plan to hold the land. And they give lots of trouble every time I assassinate multidukes in order to redistribute the duchies, makes my usually-very-stable-gigantic-empire temporarily very unstable
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
I guess the penalty arises from what Ulminati mentioned, a hypothetical "tyrant" king...
Except it doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense since you could, say, create no Dukes and just have counts everywhere, or be a Duke of Everything, and have the bitching and moaning start suddenly just for acquiring yourself a titular Kingship. The penalty for "Too Many Elector Titles" already exists, anyway. If anything, being a massive Multiheaded Duke is actually better for your prestige count, even though this outcome is, on a historical level, pretty absurd.

On top of that, the Ducal titles they bitch about could be Titular, which means they do absolutely nothing except look cool and generate prestige, which they would do even if you just gave it to some random minor vassal.
 

Saark

Arcane
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A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Well, being a tyrant king ain't that useful anyway, since you can't really hold more stuff than your demesne allows, unless you want thieves guilds and other stuff popping up everywhere. I often hand out ducal titles over the land I hold myself, and I only have to shut them up that they won't get my precious counties like once every two or three years. My Viking empire never was so big that I had as many popups as you describe though.

Dunno if it ever happened to you, but the golden horde just got roflstomped by the Ilkhanate in my game, meaning their first invasion is stuck at -68% and they don't own a single county anywhere. Thought that was nigh impossible with their doomstacks but apparently they were able to hold it off.

What sucks the most though is that everytime I'm close to creating the kingdom of Rus with only one or two counties missing, it's been 100years since the defloration of duchy xyz, meaning they go over to the de jure kingdom of sweden.
 

newcomer

Learned
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May 23, 2012
Messages
919
Well, being a tyrant king ain't that useful anyway, since you can't really hold more stuff than your demesne allows, unless you want thieves guilds and other stuff popping up everywhere. I often hand out ducal titles over the land I hold myself, and I only have to shut them up that they won't get my precious counties like once every two or three years. My Viking empire never was so big that I had as many popups as you describe though.

Dunno if it ever happened to you, but the golden horde just got roflstomped by the Ilkhanate in my game, meaning their first invasion is stuck at -68% and they don't own a single county anywhere. Thought that was nigh impossible with their doomstacks but apparently they were able to hold it off.

What sucks the most though is that everytime I'm close to creating the kingdom of Rus with only one or two counties missing, it's been 100years since the defloration of duchy xyz, meaning they go over to the de jure kingdom of sweden.

Let's see just how large you have to go before you get these popups every few seconds...

ck2_6.jpg


Oh, this is "Part 1". Below is Part 2

ck2_7.jpg


With the lulz added :smug:. You get a general idea what is happening... Oh, and why don't you try to spot where is Qarakhnid?

ck2_8.jpg


Mongols? I don't care... I'll take every single one of them head on... I guess...
 

newcomer

Learned
Joined
May 23, 2012
Messages
919
Will be interesting to see how Sword of Islam impacts that game :smug:

For starters... Caliph titles are downgraded to duchies :rage:

Secondly...

ck2_9.jpg


ck2_10.jpg


719 LIVING DYNASTY MEMBERS & LOADS OF MATRILINEAL MARRIAGE!!! DEDACENCY TO THE MAX!!!

Thirdly... I play a mutant version, I doubt I can get the SOI DLC (mutant version ofc), so I doubt I can load my save game :mhd:
 

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