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Oh Snap! Twitcher 2 Dev Slams Bioware's Subpar Graphics!

Black Cat

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Leimrey said:
Black Cat said:
and less C&C than most dating sims out there.
This is why women should stick to the kitchen.

Sure. That's a good argument. Problem is that it doesn't change the fact for a game that was being touted as the great C&C revolution and of which the only thing ever mentioned as good is the C&C to have less of it than, say, Devil Survivor (which also has better gameplay, since we are at it) or, worse yet, Fate/Stay Night (which comes with much more, uhm, porny porn cards, if that's your thing) is kind of stupid. So, sure, I'll stay in the kitchen if you start showing facts about how The Twitcher's C&C is richer than most dating sims and visual novels out there, otherwise it is a bad visual novel with a dorkish story about opresed elves and medieval nazis, and awful combat thrown in.
 

ElectricOtter

Guest
misha said:
baronjohn said:
Volourn isn't part of the discussion. He's just background noise.

Thanks for the info -I used to be only a reader and I am quite new in the matter of posting here. [so greetings like "douchebag" are.. :roll: ]

as for NWN2 add-on
MotB's has a good personal theme - there is something wrong with you and despite of the others you want to know whats that [similar to BG]. in DAO.. well; if i recall it properly... 'you' as the main character [besides of everything connected with the 'forces of darkness'] was very angry on loghain that he escaped; personal topic was sth like "i am claimed as the bad guy and i have to show them the truth", yawn.. in BG and MotB you could use the bacground of story [1)bg: become a slayer 2)motb: use the power inside you not only as curse but also as tool]
Welcome to the Codex, good sir. Trust me, we're not as tough as we seem :D
 

J_C

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Black Cat said:
So, sure, I'll stay in the kitchen if you start showing facts about how The Twitcher's C&C is richer than most dating sims and visual novels out there
This almost makes me cry. Play the fucking game dammit! How can anyone say this with a straight face, when there are clearly several points in the story, where you have to make decisions, and those decisions alter the story. Not every decision has a big impact on the story, but several does. Arguing about this is like arguing about whether the Earth is flat or not.

http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Decision_Checklist
 

Mrowak

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Black Cat said:
@ Mrowak

That was entirely the point, Mrowakun. Calling it a good game, and more so one of the best games in recent gaming story, when its gameplay is absent without leave and its challenge non existant is kind of a stretch, I would think.

But then the same would happen if you were to call The Twitcher one of the best games in recent gaming story, with combat being a dumbed down QTE (and that's saying something) and all challenge dissapearing after the first act, so you are left with an easy simple game with some dorkish plot and less C&C than most dating sims out there. Jeez, best game of the century! 11/10, etc.

Maybe it's the porn cards, on one, and the deep and touching story about that soul eating wall or whatever that shit was about, on the other one.

Hmm.. I stand corrected. I see your point here but Twitcher and MotB but struck me as games of equally realised potential, rough gem so to speak, sharing similar flaws. Especially the combat annoyed me in both of them, in terms of actual realisation and its overabundance especially when one thought how boring it was. However, I still must say I found Twitcher combat at least more engaging (it didn't play itself)

They both put emphasis on storytelling, setting, characters and C&C and they both excelled at these aspects to different degree. For instance, while certainly MotB did the C&C part bettern in the end, Twitcher at least got upper hand through the game. While the setting in MotB was potentially more magical nad captivating, Twitcher managed to present its own more consistently (e.g. no weapons of kickass awesomenss sold in some barabarian village by a travelling peddler) and so on. I presume though we won't be at agreement here.

And no, compared to the classics from the ye'olden days neither of them is that amazing... Compared to other AAA titles released in the past 5 years they are surprisingly good.

Sceptic said:
There's more to gameplay than the combat engine you know.

Yes, but it is not apparent in MotB which unfortunately suffers from the engine horribly to the point combat is unsalvagable - no mod can save this abomination, nothing can make it interesting. If you turn on AI the game plays itself. If you happen to have a Mage as you main character and Safiya in you team you hit a win button. If you should like to make a few items you will be overpowered beyond your wildest dreams.

You could always say that difficulty slider is there for a reason but I hate it when foes magically get 200% hitting ratio just because, not due to their cunning, tactical manuvering, surprise attacks etc.

I cancelled my third playthrough of MotB recently I just couldn't bare the routine. At least in Twitcher I could run through the crowds of monsters skipping combat alotogether. Not so in MotB.

Plus, Twitcher has at least one good combat mod (Full Combat Rebalance Mod) whereas MotB...
 

SerratedBiz

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The point is that the way most decisions affect the story is by reskinning the models of your allies and enemies, whereas everything else plays out exactly the same (or to a degree where there's no significant change, ie, the reskin).
 

Black Cat

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J_C said:
Black Cat said:
. So, sure, I'll stay in the kitchen if you start showing facts about how The Twitcher's C&C is richer than most dating sims and visual novels out there
This almost makes me cry. Play the fucking game dammit! How can anyone say this with a straight face, when there are clearly several points in the strory, when you have to make decisions, and those decisions alter the story. Not every decision has a big impact on the story, but several does. Arguing about this is like arguing about whether the Earth is flat or not.

I did play it, and am sorry about it, only because the premise did remind me of another game, one that I actually like. And if you think that the link you gave me proves anything, it is you who before discussing the greatness of The Twitcher's C&C should play more visual novels, I.E: A genre that's nothing but vastly branching stories that you read and pick through. Or, say, play Devil Survivor, which is a (bad) visual novel with cool tactical combat and awesome party customization thrown in, only that even while being a (bad) visual novel it has more actually meaningful choices through the tree than The Twitcher does. Does The Twitcher has vastly different endgame escenarios and bosses based on your previous choices? Are you able to lose more than half the recruitable characters based on your choices? Is it possible to make the game impossible to win, plotwise, and get locked on the you suck ending based on your choices? No. You only get slight changes to existing scenarios. Great C&C. Again, let's say, Tsukihime rapes the Witcher Twitcher's C&C, and given the kind of game that one is I would say it does so in more ways than one.

Edit:

@ Mrowak


Sorry, I was posting when you answered and I missed the post. And sure, I do accept that MotB and The Witcher did what they wanted to do with some quality, yes. What I do not believe is that you can say a given game is one of the best games in recent gaming history when it has no gameplay to speak of. The same we can say about, say, Planescape: Torment, only that the setting on that one actually makes it more bearable.

What do you do on those games? Do you participate on complex tactical battles against varied and ruthless foes? Nope. Do you solve stupidly complex and obscure puzzles by slowly putting together hidden hints and reasoning your way through them? Nope. Do you defeat brutal enemies and hardcore bosses in cool, dinamic, and intense player skill based combat? Nope. Do you have to navigate devious mazes full of traps and twisted tricks? Nope. Do you do anything at all? Nope, you just view a story play out and pick choices that slightly change the outcome, then yawn at the bad dungeons and the awful combat. Then, the game's a visual novel with 3D graphics, not really a game. There's a reason why most people who like Visual Novels use the read verb instead of the play one when talking about them.
 

misha

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@ ElecTriCotter, thx :)

@ Dajaaj, 'protip' sounds so pro that all i can do is stop whining xDDD

and about all these "porn cards" - in most of rpgs you won't find 10 minutes without moments where blood is everywhere, brain and flesh are all over the place, and moreover developers are proud to say how their game is hardcore - BUT if u show tits or sex in a game THAT is unmoral, unnatural, silly or so :smug:
 

Leimrey

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@Black Cat
Calling it a good game, and more so one of the best games in recent gaming story, when its gameplay is absent without leave and its challenge non existant

Combat in Witcher is all about preparation (potions+coatings+bombs or magic). Yes, the game was pretty easy on Easy and Normal modes, but it absolutely required you to manage, plan and prepare beforehand your potions on Hard (I would like to see someone beat the Beast without chugging Thunderbolt, Blizzard or Swallow on Hard). Also, the difficulty enhancing mod by Flash was released for people, who found the game too easy (after the 5th walkthrough, because hardly anyone found it easy during their first walkthrough on Hard). Fuck, even fucking Drowners could owherwhelm your ass on Hard from time to time.

Now, let's not compare visual novels to actual games, k? That's what my earlier remark was aimed at. C&C is the ONLY selling point of most visual novels out there (excluding the waifu and horny teenage otaku/weeaboo factors). Only selected few VN have actually good writing (and no, Fate/Stay Night is not one of them). Throw in full-scale voice acting and animation and we'll see how many alternative paths your VN will be able to support (and yes, I do understand that there's a large difference in the amount of text encountered in most games and VNs). However, the fact that you compare VNs and The Witcher speaks volumes about the game. The Witcher is THE C&C rpg of the last 5 years, even MotB sucks dwarf cock in comparison.
 

1451

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Let us not compare an action/rpg with a product that hardly qualifies as a videogame(in fact it is just a succession of images and text).
 

Mrowak

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Black Cat said:
J_C said:
Black Cat said:
. So, sure, I'll stay in the kitchen if you start showing facts about how The Twitcher's C&C is richer than most dating sims and visual novels out there
This almost makes me cry. Play the fucking game dammit! How can anyone say this with a straight face, when there are clearly several points in the strory, when you have to make decisions, and those decisions alter the story. Not every decision has a big impact on the story, but several does. Arguing about this is like arguing about whether the Earth is flat or not.

I did play it, and am sorry about it, only because the premise did remind me of another game, one that I actually like. And if you think that the link you gave me proves anything, it is you who before discussing the greatness of The Twitcher's C&C should play more visual novels, I.E: A genre that's nothing but vastly branching stories that you read and pick through. Or, say, play Devil Survivor, which is a (bad) visual novel with cool tactical combat and awesome party customization thrown in, only that even while being a (bad) visual novel it has more actually meaningful choices through the tree than The Twitcher does. Does The Twitcher has vastly different endgame escenarios and bosses based on your previous choices? Are you able to lose more than half the recruitable characters based on your choices? Is it possible to make the game impossible to win, plotwise, and get locked on the you suck ending based on your choices? No. You only get slight changes to existing scenarios. Great C&C. Again, let's say, Tsukihime rapes the Witcher Twitcher's C&C, and given the kind of game that one is I would say it does so in more ways than one.

Edit:

@ Mrowak


Sorry, I was posting when you answered and I missed the post. And sure, I do accept that MotB and The Witcher did what they wanted to do with some quality, yes. What I do not believe is that you can say a given game is one of the best games in recent gaming history when it has no gameplay to speak of. The same we can say about, say, Planescape: Torment, only that the setting on that one actually makes it more bearable.

What do you do on those games? Do you participate on complex tactical battles against varied and ruthless foes? Nope. Do you solve stupidly complex and obscure puzzles by slowly putting together hidden hints and reasoning your way through them? Nope. Do you defeat brutal enemies and hardcore bosses in cool, dinamic, and intense player skill based combat? Nope. Do you have to navigate devious mazes full of traps and twisted tricks? Nope. Do you do anything at all? Nope, you just view a story play out and pick choices that slightly change the outcome, then yawn at the bad dungeons and the awful combat. Then, the game's a visual novel with 3D graphics, not really a game. There's a reason why most people who like Visual Novels use the read verb instead of the play one when talking about them.

Ok, as far as this aspect is concerned I can concede.. Neither of products poses a problem to solve nor consists of a number of really challenging challengeges you can overcome with your wit/skill. I would say there are shades of it in both installments e,g, when you conduct an investigation in Twitcher act II or when you gather clues about the nature of the Hunger in MotB but it's all... immaterial so to speak. The combat in both is badly designed and too easy... what can I say. Mods change things significantly in Twitcher but no game should be judged by its mods.

So in the frame you are speaking about they are both bad games... Yeah I would prefer completely tactical combat in MotB over that abomination. If they made Twitcher an action adventure with greater control over combat and more challenging foes (Beast act I) + some stats and items that would be also awesome.

However, in terms of what MotB and Twitcher actually achieved, not as far as what they could/should have been I find them very good contenders to all the popamole bullshit there is out there.
 

Black Cat

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Leimrey said:
Combat in Witcher is all about preparation (potions+coatings+bombs or magic). Yes, the game was pretty easy on Easy and Normal modes, but it absolutely required you to manage, plan and prepare beforehand your potions on Hard (I would like to see someone beat the Beast without chugging Thunderbolt, Blizzard or Swallow on Hard).

Ahm, not really. I play all games on Hard from the first run, or more if available. The only battle I had to prepare for in any way was the evil dog thingie on the first chapter. After that, what? I always had nine or so of each oil and most potions currently available on my inventory. O, look, zombies like thingies! Lets use a zombie like thingie killing oil and charge. I finished the game without having used nothing but a bunch of oils most of the time, whose ingredients where bloody everywhere. I never used a single bomb.

Maybe those are my neko reflexes, but I'm not really good at action games that don't require you to dodge stupid amounts of bullets, so most probably the game is just really easy, I say.

Also, the difficulty enhancing mod by Flash was released for people, who found the game too easy (after the 5th walkthrough, because hardly anyone found it easy during their first walkthrough on Hard). Fuck, even fucking Drowners could owherwhelm your ass on Hard from time to time.

The game was easy on hard on my first playthrough. The only part in which I died more than once was when that bug thingie pursues you, and the rest of the deaths where on the evil dog thingie in the begining. One on the crab thingie with a weird name at the end, and one in the last chapter because my computer was running like a bloody slideshow with all those dwarves and knights attacking each other.

Now, let's not compare visual novels to actual games, k?

I'm not comparing it to actual games. I'm comparing them to a bad visual novel with an awfully simple and easy game built around it.

C&C is the ONLY selling point of most visual novels out there (excluding the waifu and horny teenage otaku/weeaboo factors). Only selected few VN have actually good writing (and no, Fate/Stay Night is not one of them). Throw in full-scale voice acting and animation and we'll see how many alternative paths your VN will be able to support (and yes, I do understand that there's a large difference in the amount of text encountered in most games and VNs). However, the fact that you compare VNs and The Witcher speaks volumes about the game. The Witcher is THE C&C rpg of the last 5 years, even MotB sucks dwarf cock in comparison.

So, the only reason why The Witcher's good is because it has animation and 3D graphics in an otherwise awful visual novel? Wow, that really makes it the best C&C role playing game of the last five years. Combat is only hard if you fail at games, as I said already. Puzzles? Nope. Dungeons? Nope. Hard combat? Nope. Quaff a potion every now and then, then kick ass by watching when the sword goes kachink does not qualify of challenging combat, really.

And my Fate/Stay Night comment was only because of the softcore shit being The Twitcher's only real selling point. I don't like thingie Moon's VNs, myself. They are way too anime-ish for my tastes.

In any case, you also ignored my comment about Devil Survivor in there, whose C&C is actually much better than the witcher's and which is actually a tactical combat game with awesome party customization. Again, in which way does the twitcher have more C&C than a game with those qualities I mentioned before?

1451 said:
Let us not compare an action/rpg with a product that hardly qualifies as a videogame(in fact it is just a succession of images and text).

Why not? The only element ever mentioned as good on the witcher is the C&C. The combat, the character building, the puzzling, and the dungeon crawling sucks, ahm, dwarf cock (hey, something good has to come from it). If we have a game whose C&C is the only good element and have an entire genre of games thingies whose C&C is the only selling point, the comparison is natural.
 

dr. one

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Leimrey said:
I would like to see someone beat the Beast without chugging Thunderbolt, Blizzard or Swallow on Hard.
in preparation for its awesome sequel i´m playing The Witcher on Hard right now and the fight lasted 5 seconds without any of these :smug:
(maxed Aard did the work)
 

misha

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Black Cat said:
If we have a game whose C&C is the only good element and have an entire genre of games thingies whose C&C is the only selling point, the comparison is natural.

It would be good statement if the sentence that it was it's only good element was a fact. For many athmopshere and plot weren't witcher's weaknesses.
 

Black Cat

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misha said:
It would be good statement if the sentence that it was it's only good element was a fact. For many athmopshere and plot weren't witcher's weaknesses.

Atmosphere and plot aren't gameplay, while C&C can be argued to be gameplay (though I don't consider it so). Given we are talking about whether a game is good or not...
 

Leimrey

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@Black Cat
I'm not sure if you're a troll or simply a woman, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, atleast for now.

Did you play the Enhanced Edition?

I always had nine or so of each oil and most potions currently available on my inventory.
Sounds like preparation to me (munchkinism also springs to mind).

I finished the game without having used nothing but a bunch of oils most of the time
Which are used before the actual combat most of the time.

I'm not comparing it to actual games. I'm comparing them to a bad visual novel with an awfully simple and easy game built around it.
Yeah, the fact that it has one of the most impressive alchemy systems ever and a large cast of monsters that require different tactics to beat only supports your opinion.

So, the only reason why The Witcher's good is because it has animation and 3D graphics in an otherwise awful visual novel?
Nope. The Witcher is good because it is a good game overall:
+ music
+ atmosphere
+ alchemy
+ writing (I liked the writing and atmosphere overall, due to the aforementioned "commonplace" factor)
+ - story and main quest
++ sidequests
- combat system
Yep. Sure is a bad game here.

And my Fate/Stay Night comment was only because of the softcore shit being The Twitcher's only real selling point.
I think I'm beginning to understand you, M'lady.

In any case, you also ignored my comment about Devil Survivor in there, whose C&C is actually much better than the witcher's and which is actually a tactical combat game with awesome party customization. Again, in which way does the twitcher have more C&C than a game with those qualities I mentioned before?
Does DS have good C&C? Yes. Is it a good game? Nope, it's second rate weeaboo trash (and that's coming from another borderline weeaboo).

There's nothing magical here. DS focused on several things, like C&C and... that's pretty much it, because it's combat was shit, compared to other TB RPGs (like ToEE). The visual direction was shit (compare it to actually beatiful Jap games like Odin Sphere), music was shit, writing was shit, story was shit. The dialogues would make even Toddler himself cringe from retardation overload. Animations? What animations? The Witcher, on the other hand was a complete, true RPG that delivered in every department, except for the combat. Now, throw in the development costs that are needed to cover things like voice acting and 3d model animation, and maybe, just maybe, you'll understand why VNs cannot be compared to actual games.
 

Leimrey

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@Black Cat
Atmosphere and plot aren't gameplay, while C&C can be argued to be gameplay
A certain atmosphere may be imposed through writing, storytelling techniques and dialogues. If, by your logic, C&C is gameplay, then atmosphere and plot may be also considered as such, because they may be imposed/narrated through dialogue trees (which contain multiple choices and require you to click your bloody left mouse button :M ).
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Eh? Dialogues might be gameplay. Story and atmosphere are not. Story and atmosphere are a totally different thing than gameplay, they just add to or detract from the game's enjoyment by being good or bad.

Diablo has good atmosphere. Now imagine it with pink elephants instead of demons. And imagine they were spawned by a rainbow-colored unicorn instead of Diablo, lord of hell. Gameplay would be exactly the same. Story and atmosphere would be entirely different. And shit. Gameplay would still be fun, only some people might not be able to stomach the shit story and atmosphere.

Now, imagine Arcanum with the exact same amount of choices, but with a completely different setting and atmosphere. Imagine it was generic happy fantasy land #65344624554 instead of industrial revolution tech vs magic 19th century fantasy. It would certainly be a vastly different game that lacks one of the best aspects of Arcanum - story and setting. Yet the gameplay would still be the same. There'd still be an awesome persuasion master quest, the possibility to convince the dwarven king in exile to return, etc etc.

Story and atmosphere aren't gameplay. Otherwise movies and books could be called games.
 

ElectricOtter

Guest
Black Cat said:
misha said:
It would be good statement if the sentence that it was it's only good element was a fact. For many athmopshere and plot weren't witcher's weaknesses.

while C&C can be argued to be gameplay (though I don't consider it so).
But C&C (at least good C&C) should be considered a element of gameplay as it should change the gameplay.
 

Black Cat

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A certain atmosphere may be imposed through writing, storytelling techniques and dialogues.

Which aren't gameplay.

DS focused on several things, like C&C and... that's pretty much it, because it's combat was shit, compared to other TB RPGs (like ToEE).

And character customization that's several times more deep and complex that anything The Witcher has, a fusion and training system that's much more complex than The Witcher's Alchemy, and a much bigger need for preparation. Also, you seem to forget Role Playing Games are about building characters, basicaly. Which is the entire point of Shin Megami Tensei games. What options has The Witcher about building characters, again? Compare that to the many completely different skill sets you can give both the characters and the demons, freely mixing and matching into whatever you want to try. If you are talking about preparation, how come you don't mention Devil Survivor's Build Options, and that's just for skills and not for racials and the like, many of which you can only equip a limited amount of times on your group and the best of which you need to go out of your way to get, but actually mention The Witcher's drink a potion before combat begins and then click click click through the battle? :roll:

And, again, when talking about how good or bad a game is I'm only talking about gameplay. Story, setting, graphics, animation, music, etc is unimportant. The only important thins is gameplay, as in the challenges the game provides you with and the tools you get to defeat them. Nothing else matters to whether the game is good or bad. And, again, you talk about something, and then fail to see how other game, you believe to be worse, actually has more detail and depth on it that the one you are defending. You, sir, are a damned storyfag. Go play Bioware games and leave us be.

Sounds like preparation to me (munchkinism also springs to mind).

But you were saying that preparation made the game hard, when the fact I never needed to prepare for a battle outside one of the first ones indicates the game kept being easy. It's not my fault if you fail at games and upon seeing a long list of potions decided to not prepare them all in case you ever need one of those. Also, read again what I said: Most oils and potions where useless, or at least not needed. I only used a handful, and always of the same ones. I ended the game with two of the inventory rectangle thingies full of stacks of oils and potions and bombs I never used, not even once. Impressive.

Again, the game isn't challenging. You prepare nine of each potion as soon as it becomes available, then use those that will make the current combat a non issue. No reloads needed, no challenging what do I need to use now? Then, after the battle, go and prepare enough potions and oils to recover those you wasted on the battle. Again, you are saying a game's challenging when I only died a couple of times on a set piece and then once on two or three bosses? That's bullshit, and easy. If the game gives us alchemy and then using (or abusing) alchemy makes the game easy, then the game's easy, as when you are using all the tools the game gave you all challenge disappears. :roll:

Yeah, the fact that it has one of the most impressive alchemy systems ever and a large cast of monsters that require different tactics to beat only supports your opinion.

The Witcher's alchemy system isn't impressive. Many other (better) games have also reagent based alchemy or spellcasting, and those are actually hard games even when you are playing them as intended and using all the crap you can get to give you and advantage.

+ music
+ atmosphere
+ alchemy
+ writing (I liked the writing and atmosphere overall, due to the aforementioned "commonplace" factor)
+ - story and main quest
++ sidequests
- combat system

Considering the Combat System is what you spend most of the gameplay time doing, yes. It is a pretty awful game. Atmosphere, writing, story, sidequest, etc, are bullshit when talking about gameplay. You spend the game doing two things: Getting crap to make potions and killing monsters. The former is, basicaly, inventory puzzles without the puzzle. The later is click click click. Awesome game.

Edit:

@ ElecTriCotter


Sure, but usually C&C is just something that affects the story. You may get a couple different dialogues, a couple different scenes, maybe make a battle slightly harder or easier, but it does not change the game a whole lot. I do concede that in some cases where actual C&C can give you diferent endgame scenarios with diferent challenges, switch bosses to other different ones, give you access to diferent skill sets, etc, the C&C is part of the gameplay, as depending on what you chose your gameplay will be dramatically different.

In most games, however, and The Twitcher included, the C&C is just there as a way to get some diferent scenes, a diferent romantic subplot, a maybe a diferent dialogue somewhere. It isn't affecting the gameplay, just the story itself.
 

Volourn

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Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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"+ music
+ atmosphere
+ alchemy
+ writing (I liked the writing and atmosphere overall, due to the aforementioned "commonplace" factor)
+ - story and main quest
++ sidequests
- combat system
"

All shit.. except graphics which you didn't even mention. That's the only good thing about TW.. well.. except for the b00bie cards which were kewl and the most mature thing about the game. L0LZ
 

Archibald

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2011 fags are even worse than we were.
 

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