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Oh Snap! Twitcher 2 Dev Slams Bioware's Subpar Graphics!

Leimrey

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@Black cat
And character customization that's several times more deep and complex that anything The Witcher has
Not entirely. You were allowed to "customize" Geralt by developing his motivations, priorities, feelings, perception of world and occuring events through dialogue and gameplay choices (this includes a long Identity quest and relationship with Triss, Shani, Alvin, Sigfried and other characters). Geralt would comment differently on quest outcomes and during certain key moments in the game based on your earlier "identity customisation". This is deep, choosing fom 100 stats and skills is not, it's just complex.

Also, you seem to forget Role Playing Games are about building characters, basicaly.
Give her the Nobel Prize, she has just defined what an RPG is. Character generation is only one facet of RPGs. The Witcher may lack in this department (as does Torment), but it's certainly quite solid in the character development aspect.

And, again, when talking about how good or bad a game is I'm only talking about gameplay. Story, setting, graphics, animation, music, etc is unimportant. The only important thins is gameplay,
No. That's fucking borderline heresy here. The story, the setting, the graphics, the visual style and presentation, the narration techniques, the animation fluidity, the quality of voice acting all contribute to the overall impression/enjoyment value of the game. Most of these factors can make or break or the game (which is the case with DS, which is very good in some aspects, but is a totally repulsive turd in others) Yes, these factors are subjective, but there are certain standards in the industry that allow us to compare and evaluate them.

You, sir, are a damned storyfag. Go play Bioware games and leave us be.
No, I just like good games and good RPGs, DS is neither.

But you were saying that preparation made the game hard
Preparation was needed to advance in the game, that was all I've said.

Most oils and potions where useless, or at least not needed.
No, you just chose a particular gameplay style/combination of potions and oils and assumed that everything else was useless. It was perfectly possible to survive on Bleeding and Poison oils and on combat efficiency enhancing potions without healing. That's like saying that most of the story paths in VNs are useless, because I've used/completed only one/several of them.

when you are using all the tools the game gave you all challenge disappears.
Yes, the game becomes MUCH easier if you always use the right potions in combat. I've always tried to use as minimum potions and oils as possible though. Maybe that was my problem.

The Witcher's alchemy system isn't impressive.
It is. The only games that have a better alchemy system that I've played are the TES games.

Considering the Combat System is what you spend most of the gameplay time doing
No, not even close. It's not my fault that some people can't overcome their grinding habbits and buy fucking monster repulsion talismans.

You spend the game doing two things: Getting crap to make potions and killing monsters.
Even if you kill every hostile creature you encounter, you'll still spend more time solving quests (those that require something other thn killing monsters) and reading dialogues.
 

Leimrey

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In the Land of Twilight, under the moon
Archibald said:
2011 fags are even worse than we were.
Says the 2010 oldfag.

@Volourn
You know, if you had omitted the music part, I would have commented something along the lines of "beauty is in the eye of the Beholder", but the only thing I can say now is that you have shit taste, princess. Witcher's music is pretty fucking solid. Deal with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWrE_3viOY0
 

Black Cat

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Not entirely. You were allowed to "customize" Geralt by developing his motivations, priorities, feelings, perception of world and occuring events through dialogue and gameplay choices (this includes a long Identity quest and relationship with Triss, Shani, Alvin, Sigfried and other characters). Geralt would comment differently on quest outcomes and during certain key moments in the game based on your earlier "identity customisation". This is deep, choosing fom 100 stats and skills is not, it's just complex.

I said so already, you are a storyfag. Can we move on? You may love LARPing Geralt, but that doesn't make The Twitcher a good role playing game, or a good game at all.

No. That's fucking borderline heresy here. The story, the setting, the graphics, the visual style and presentation, the narration techniques, the animation fluidity, the quality of voice acting all contribute to the overall impression/enjoyment value of the game. Most of these factors can make or break or the game (which is the case with DS, which is very good in some aspects, but is a totally repulsive turd in others) Yes, these factors are subjective, but there are certain standards in the industry that allow us to compare and evaluate them.

Ahm, no. Game can have nothing but an excuse plot, if at all, and still be good games. Role playing games can have nothing but a kill foozle premise and be entirely done on ascii characters and still be good roleplaying games. It follows Story, setting, graphics, visual style, and presentation don't have anything at all to do with their quality as a game.

No, you just chose a particular gameplay style/combination of potions and oils and assumed that everything else was useless. It was perfectly possible to survive on Bleeding and Poison oils and on combat efficiency enhancing potions without healing. That's like saying that most of the story paths in VNs are useless, because I've used/completed only one/several of them.

So it is perfectly possible to survive playing sub optimally, yet the game is actually challenging? :roll:

It is. The only games that have a better alchemy system that I've played are the TES games.

If I don't remember it wrong, other than toxicity and the extra effects you could give some potions there was no actual system, just formulas you did reproduce by means of reagents you had to look for. The same has been present in gaming since bloody Feud.

No, not even close. It's not my fault that some people can't overcome their grinding habbits and buy fucking monster repulsion talismans.

Even if you kill every hostile creature you encounter, you'll still spend more time solving quests (those that require something other thn killing monsters) and reading dialogues.

Uhm, no, sorry. Solving most quests in The Witcher is not actual gameplay, as there is no actual challenge in them, no danger in them: There are no puzzles, for example. There are no complex dungeons, nor situations that you must navigate correctly or game over. When you aren't fighting or making potions you are LARPing Geralt. Sorry, YOUR Geralt, and experimenting this totally awesome softcore porn story.

Let me make this clear: Building your character to better surpass the game's challenges is gameplay. Solving puzzles is gameplay. Exploring dungeons is gameplay. Fighting tactical battles is gameplay. Fine tunning your party for the next boss battle is gameplay. Managing resources to not fall into a dead end is gameplay. Player skill based combat is gameplay. Solving riddles is gameplay. Min maxing your character build is gameplay. Dodging colorful bullets is gameplay.

LARPing you are Geralt who likes this girl instead of that girl and believes this philosophy to be more right than that other one isn't gameplay, sorry.
 

J_C

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Black Cat, it is amazing how can you bitch about EVERY element of The Witcher. I mean even though I don't like Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2, I can find some good things in them. But you managed to rip The Witcher to pieces, and you have proven that it is a terrible game (of course you are wrong, but still a great achievement).

But I'm curious that what are your favourite RPGs?
 

1451

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If i want puzzles i can play Riven. If i want tactical battles i can play chess or Rome Total War.
Also Witcher belongs to a new generation of games, where most of the action is found in an open world.
This is why you can't judge it by dungeon crawl standards.
Based on your definition of gameplay, Diablo and it's clones do not have gameplay because the battles are not based on player skill. You just click on the monsters and use shortcut keys for spells or potions.
And last but not least Witcher is not a party based game, therefore it can't be accused of lacking the party tuning element.
 

asper

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Witcher?? Open world?? New generation of games?? You've got to be fucking kidding me. Go play Ultima 7 (1992), Daggerfall (1996), or Wasteland (1988) for real open and living worlds. Witcher has small hubs, which you have to "finish" to advance to the next one. Like in Mario Bros.
 

Crooked Bee

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Fucking 2011 newfags.

(But well, I mist admit I kinda liked the Witcher despite its shit combat. :oops: So the joke's on me.)
 

Leimrey

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You may love LARPing Geralt
Your choices during the Identity quest and other identity related quests have actual consequences, like altering the ending or Geralt's comments during some other quests.

So it is perfectly possible to survive playing sub optimally
Those are hardly suboptimal soutions. They are simply different solutions, you seem to have a problem understanding this.

Uhm, no, sorry. Solving most quests in The Witcher is not actual gameplay
The Witcher quests require navigation through dialogue trees that have multiple options and, in some cases, result in different outcomes. This is a part of RPG gameplay. Ever heard of the Steal - Slay - Speak principle (although I think only Russians use this definition now)? All of these actions are part of RPG gameplay.

You seem to harbor a misconception that a good game has to be challenging. Nope, a good game must be enjoyable first and foremost. That's why the definition of a "good game" is subjective and obscure as fuck. Challenge is only one of the factors that contributes to the overal enjoyment value and even then there are people who dislike excessive challenge.

Let me make this clear: Building your character to better surpass the game's challenges is gameplay. Solving puzzles is gameplay. Exploring dungeons is gameplay. Fighting tactical battles is gameplay. Fine tunning your party for the next boss battle is gameplay. Managing resources to not fall into a dead end is gameplay. Player skill based combat is gameplay. Solving riddles is gameplay. Min maxing your character build is gameplay. Dodging colorful bullets is gameplay.

Everything you mentioned is present in The Witcher (except the puzzles and party), I don't even understand your argument anymore. My final opinion is that The Witcher is a good game (I've described this in my earlier post which was bashed by Volly) and one of the best wRPGs (haven't played jrpgs in a long time) of the last five years, easily on par with MotB.
 

made

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Actually, Leimrey is making more sense than 90% of you newfags. Thus probably an alt.
 

Raghar

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Leimrey said:
just simple people, simple problems and difficult to decide on, morally ambiguous solutions.

Also, the 4th chapter had a quote that describes the game perfectly

While I like a RPG that keeps its head low, no daemon spawn or whatever, this chapter is where most of the lore rape happened.

Drakensang 2 was better in this regard. A simple RPG with few characters that are living in a large world. Witcher was about using existing characters in a different settings. A lot of Witcher gameplay felt forced.

For example all these choices and consequences. It wasn't choices and consequences as they should be, it was "we are developers and we are telling you this was the choice and these are consequences". It was often followed by a flood of philosophic talking... which felt out of place.

Drakensang 2 was better in this regard. Choices were choices, failed quests were failed quests, and these two who charged that dragon ended as expected. (actually that was Drakensang 1) People had quirks, some of them were natural retards, other acted stupidly because the situation forced them to show theirs real colors. People in Witcher on the other hand acted like mannequins, stiff figurines with...

Writing in Witcher the game isn't something to be proud about.The main character in books was madao which screwed a lot of stuff. Not because of neutrality, but because of inaction. He might like to suddenly check something in a few hundred km away, find about stuff, grab the girl, and say "Sorry boy I can't allow you to rape this girl.". He didn't. Neutrality has nothing to do with stuff like that.
 

Leimrey

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For example all these choices and consequences. It wasn't choices and consequences as they should be, it was "we are developers and we are telling you this was the choice and these are consequences". It was often followed by a flood of philosophic talking... which felt out of place.
Sorry you feel that way. I, on the other hand, really loved Geralt's comments on different quest outcomes and awaited them with anticipation. It really felt like your decisions are fleshing out the main character. Also, the watercolour/oil paintings were a pretty nice touch.
 

torpid

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I see that the Polish/Eastern European propaganda machine is ramping up its efforts before the sequel is released. The first Witcher is now a deep and challenging open world game. With the way things are going, it's very likely that once the game is out the Codex will enter a short dark age as it did back when the first game was released.

1451 said:
Based on your definition of gameplay, Diablo and it's clones do not have gameplay because the battles are not based on player skill. You just click on the monsters and use shortcut keys for spells or potions.

Diablo and its clones are kind of the definition of trashy gameplay. They were long anathema on the Codex, until the place was overrun with posters who's hardcore posturing doesn't go beyond making fun of easy targets like Bioware and Bethesda.
 

Crooked Bee

(no longer) a wide-wandering bee
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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Leimrey said:
Your choices during the Identity quest and other identity related quests have actual consequences, like altering the ending or Geralt's comments during some other quests.

Oh-kay, I liked the Witcher, but can you really call some bits of flavour text "consequences"? Different in-game routes are the only "C&C" worth speaking of. Otherwise you end up with Alpha Protocol as the epitome of C&C.
 

Dele

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Leimrey said:
Everything you mentioned is present in The Witcher (except the puzzles and party), I don't even understand your argument anymore. My final opinion is that The Witcher is a good game (I've described this in my earlier post which was bashed by Volly) and one of the best wRPGs (haven't played jrpgs in a long time) of the last five years, easily on par with MotB.

:thumbsup:
 

DraQ

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Black Cat is the new Skyway.

Crooked Bee said:
Leimrey said:
Your choices during the Identity quest and other identity related quests have actual consequences, like altering the ending or Geralt's comments during some other quests.

Oh-kay, I liked the Witcher, but can you really call some bits of flavour text "consequences"? Different in-game routes are the only "C&C" worth speaking of. Otherwise you end up with Alpha Protocol as the epitome of C&C.
I'd say yes. Because "flavour text" is what provides meaning. It isn't any different in this regard than flavour textures, or flavour models or flavour level geometry. If this flavour text defines story and character then yes, it qualifies as consequences from story perspective. In some games, like IF, "flavour text" is all there is.

Actually the worst thing about Witcher and the one that made its status as RPG questionable was lack of connection between character described by stats and character defined by actions. Still it's a very good game and a stellar debut.

And, while story and atmosphere aren't gameplay elements, they can, on their own, make or break the game. Would anyone even touch PS:T was it not for its story and atmosphere? With 10ft pole, I mean.
 

dragonfk

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Messages
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J_C said:
Black Cat, it is amazing how can you bitch about EVERY element of The Witcher. I mean even though I don't like Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2, I can find some good things in them. But you managed to rip The Witcher to pieces, and you have proven that it is a terrible game (of course you are wrong, but still a great achievement).

But I'm curious that what are your favourite RPGs?

What do you not understand? She's a black cat, and what does Witcher do with witches?
 

asper

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DraQ said:
Actually the worst thing about Witcher and the one that made its status as RPG questionable was lack of connection between character described by stats and character defined by actions. Still it's a very good game and a stellar debut.

Exactly this. I've never seen such a precise characterization of The Witcher, even though I would add the dubious writing and restrictive level design as flaws. :salute:
 

DraQ

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dragonfk said:
J_C said:
Black Cat, it is amazing how can you bitch about EVERY element of The Witcher. I mean even though I don't like Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2, I can find some good things in them. But you managed to rip The Witcher to pieces, and you have proven that it is a terrible game (of course you are wrong, but still a great achievement).

But I'm curious that what are your favourite RPGs?

What do you not understand? She's a black cat, and what does Witcher do with witches?
If game and books are any indications, he bones them and may protect them from angry mob.
 

Black Cat

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Skyrim .///.
@ Leimrey

Your choices during the Identity quest and other identity related quests have actual consequences, like altering the ending or Geralt's comments during some other quests.

Those differences aren't mechanical. Picking this instead of that will not make you fight an extra and almost impossible boss, not will you get captured and executed two chapters later because a foolish choice you did pick earlier. The consequences, and thus the choices, are just fluff, useless shit to satisfy storyfags.

Everything you mentioned is present in The Witcher (except the puzzles and party)

Don't be a retard. Building your character is unimportant when by the end of the game you will have maxed the low level and medium level stuff, so the only difference will be the golden things you bought, which by that point are so slight in the difference they make that no one cares. Exploring dungeons, in The Witcher? Go play some actual hardcore dungeon crawlers to know what's a dungeon, before claiming such. Managing resources is not present when most resources are unlimited. There's no managing resources if drinking that potion don't means you will not have it later if you need it. And please tell me where's the Danmaku in The Witcher (I.E: Dogding colorful bullets) because I don't remember any of this on it. Really, critical reading comprehension failure on that last one.

And, again, you should pay attention to the way the arguments flow. I was mentioning those things as being gameplay, not as being present or absent on The Witcher. Those things are gameplay, talking with people and making storyfag like choices isn't.

The Witcher quests require navigation through dialogue trees that have multiple options and, in some cases, result in different outcomes. This is a part of RPG gameplay. Ever heard of the Steal - Slay - Speak principle (although I think only Russians use this definition now)? All of these actions are part of RPG gameplay.

Those outcomes are superficial at best. Again, there are no mechanical diferences, nor bonuses and penalties, nor deadends, nor non standard game overs. Therefore, you can't be wrong through them. Also, there is no relationship between those options and your character build. Therefore, there is no game. It is you LARPing, there is no role playing on it, nor any relationship between your character build and the options you are getting.

Have you ever heard of a little game known as Daughter of the Serpents? It is an adventure game in which you create a character at the begining, and then have different options presents themselves or events happen during the (short) game based on the character you did build. Again, it's an adventure game which is also more of a role playing game than The Twitcher is. :roll:

You seem to harbor a misconception that a good game has to be challenging. Nope, a good game must be enjoyable first and foremost. That's why the definition of a "good game" is subjective and obscure as fuck. Challenge is only one of the factors that contributes to the overal enjoyment value and even then there are people who dislike excessive challenge.

I did say the game was retard friendly and easy. You did say it was challenging. Now, it doesn't matter if it is challenging because it is enjoyable? Are we the bloody CasualCodex now and no one sent me a memo? If you want to LARP without being challenged by hardcore gameplay, like, good for you, enjoy it, but don't try to put yourself above those jerks that roleplay Ninja Cartographers in Oblivion.

Those are hardly suboptimal soutions. They are simply different solutions, you seem to have a problem understanding this.

It is you who is playing sub optimally, as you aren't playing using every tool at your disposal in the best and most effective way. Therefore, you shouldn't win a game that is suposed to be challenging. The Witcher isn't challenging, as you don't need to play optimally to win.





@ Crooked Bee

(But well, I mist admit I kinda liked the Witcher despite its shit combat. :oops: So the joke's on me.)

I am disappoint, Miss Bee.

:rpgcodex:

I still love you, though.

:love:

Uhm, in a non yuri way.





@ J_C

But I'm curious that what are your favourite RPGs?

My list of favorite games changes pretty often, given how unstable my mind and personality, and thus tastes, are. However, I like mostly dungeon crawlers. So, uhm, I can just tell you the things I like, in general, but not any favorites: The Legacy, Ultima Underworld, Arx Fatalis, Legend of Skullkeep, Dark Heart of Uukrul, the Shin Megami Tensei games, From Software's dungeon crawlers. Uhm... Is Hungry Ghosts an ARPG? Then add that one, too, even if I can't understand more than about one third of the text with my current japanese skill.

Also, is Robinson Requiem one? If so, add that one too. My masochism and my OCD will some day make me clear it, and then I'll make a let's play thingie and become the hardcore neko goddess. I also like, uhm, the Dark Sun games, Hard Nova, Betrayal at Krondor, the Quest For Glory games I actually played (even if i'm butthurt about Trial by Fire), Albion. And, uhm, The Summoning, Dark Spire, Class of Heroes. What else do I like? Eye of the Beholder, Lands of Lore, Anvil of Dawn, etc. Right now I have been playing some new ones which are also pretty cool, so far: Shadowlands, Hexx, Ambermoon, that World of Xeen thingie, Demise. Though maybe later they will turn to be crap or something, and I'm also trying to get into Daggerfall because everyone says it has load of cool dungeon crawling, but it is so ugly it's really hard. Uhm, and I actually like Stonekeep, even if I am the only one who does so. It's pretty silly, but has a lot of charm. And the first Ravenloft game, even if it isn't very popular around here.

I'm forgetting a lot of games but fingers are hurting, and, anyway, that should give you an idea of the kind of role playing games I like.





@ DraQ

If game and books are any indications, he bones them and may protect them from angry mob.

It's a shame Geralt is kind of a manslut, otherwise he's not very ugly.

Black Cat is the new Skyway.

Nah, I like a lot of games and usually talk about them. I just don't like the Twitcher or MotB, mostly because I like challenging gameplay and all games that aren't Betrayal at Krondor kind of bore me with text and I just start clicking through it hoping for the next puzzle or battle. Problem is, it never comes.
 

dragonfk

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Messages
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DraQ said:
dragonfk said:
J_C said:
Black Cat, it is amazing how can you bitch about EVERY element of The Witcher. I mean even though I don't like Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2, I can find some good things in them. But you managed to rip The Witcher to pieces, and you have proven that it is a terrible game (of course you are wrong, but still a great achievement).

But I'm curious that what are your favourite RPGs?

What do you not understand? She's a black cat, and what does Witcher do with witches?
If game and books are any indications, he bones them and may protect them from angry mob.

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
 

Leimrey

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131
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In the Land of Twilight, under the moon
@Black Cat
Those outcomes are superficial at best. Again, there are no mechanical diferences, nor bonuses and penalties, nor deadends, nor non standard game overs. Therefore, you can't be wrong through them.
I rest my case. This smells like outright lying to me. Different choices open and close sidequests (Order and the Squirrels for example), choices made in one quest may influence another quest (Abigail and the Healer in the 4th chapter) and so on.

nor deadends, nor non standard game overs. Therefore, you can't be wrong through them.
Which is a good thing. You can't go neither right nor wrong through most of The Witcher's quests. This is one of the reasons why some people loved TW so much.

Don't be a retard.
I'm not the retard here. You named the factors, that, in your not so humble opinion, contribute to gameplay. Then you claim that TW has no gameplay despite the fact that it has almost all of the elements you mentioned.

You did say it was challenging.
And I stand by my satetement. Yes, the game is much easier when you have all of the potions available at will, but there are situations that result in a major difficulty spikes (on hard). Some examples: The Beast, any relatively large group of enemies, the cockatrice, fucking exploding Bloedzuigers, fight against Azar and the Professor. These are the situations where I had some difficulty in progressing further.

Now, it doesn't matter if it is challenging because it is enjoyable?
Challenge is one of the factors that contribute to the overall enjoyment, thus, it is important. However, it's perception is subjective/personal. I said this earlier.

It is you who is playing sub optimally, as you aren't playing using every tool at your disposal in the best and most effective way. Therefore, you shouldn't win a game that is suposed to be challenging. The Witcher isn't challenging, as you don't need to play optimally to win.
Again, there is no best and most effective way. You can drink only a limited number of potions before you incur negative effects due to toxicity, you can apply only one coating to a blade. Sure, that Necrophage Oil may be be pretty good against the undead in that group of enemies, but there are also some Bloedzuigers, so maybe I should apply Argentia, that will result in increased damage to all enemies in the group, instead?
 

Roguey

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torpid said:
Diablo and its clones are kind of the definition of trashy gameplay. They were long anathema on the Codex, until the place was overrun with posters who's hardcore posturing doesn't go beyond making fun of easy targets like Bioware and Bethesda.
Bullshit. Even Saint Proverbius liked Diablo 1 and 2. No one likes those awful clones, but the Diablo series itself was always accepted as good for what it was.
DraQ said:
Black Cat is the new Skyway.
Her arguments are actually reasonable and nonhypocritical, plus it's fun seeing so many people lose arguments to a teenage persona.
 

Sergiu64

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Well, there we have it. The Witcher is simply not the kind of game Black Cat enjoys.

Nice to see she makes an exception for Betrayal at Krondor though. That game was brilliant... oh how I hope for a remake.

By the way Black Cat... did you like Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor perchance? Seems like a game you might like as its a dungeon crawler alright. I couldn't handle its pacing at all though and for whatever reason its stuck in my mind as the worst RPG I've ever played. But judging from your comments it might actually be something you like.
 

Leimrey

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@Black Cat
Nice list, but, difficulty wise, none of those games can compare to soloing Throne Of Bhaal with Ascension and Tactics mods installed (preferably with the XP cap intact). The fight against Amellisan + The Five + Sarevok is one of the most difficult fights in RPGs of all time. You should try it, if you haven't already.
 

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