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On the nature of trust in pseudo random number generators true nature

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by lukaszek, Aug 13, 2018.

  1. lukaszek the determinator Patron

    lukaszek
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    Its hard to have a proper discussion about RNG without watching first The Blood of Heroes with Rutheg Hauer. Watch it first and then you can move on.

    I want to drive closer attention to rules of Jugger, time keeping to be exact. You have an old guy with 100 stones and a gong. He is throwing stones at a gong. Game starts and ends with 1st and last stone. Here:


    Now imagine watching fifa game which length would be determined in same way. Commentators would be like: he is barely standing, we are predicting 30min longer game than usual.
    Later on, after careful consideration referee would decide add 5 more stones.
    Time itself becomes non deterministic.

    Now when you play your perfect rpg, imagine that behind each dice roll there is temporary universe spun up. It contains only old man with his stones and a referee with pocket atomic clock. He counts seconds of old man performance and returns value modulo 20.
    How do you like your RNG systems now?
     
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  2. Bester ⚰️☠️⚱️ Patron Vatnik

    Bester
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    I did NOT understand that.
     
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  3. ItsChon Resident Zoomer Patron

    ItsChon
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    I understood it, you're not missing out on anything.

    Movie looks cool though, so I might take a look at it.
     
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  4. aweigh Arcane

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    stopped reading at gong

    EDIT: i mean, isn't it common knowledge that there are no random numbers? like, doesn't everyone know this?
     
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  5. AdolfSatan Magister

    AdolfSatan
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    Either the universe is deterministic by nature, which renders the whole ordeal about RNG pointless, or it isn't, which makes deterministic behaviour stupid, since every aspect that lead to the moment in which the pre-determined outcome of a system is decided has been aleatory.
    Whatever you choose to believe, the wheels are already in motion and there's nothing you can do to fight against it. This discussion is pointless, your only escape is death.
     
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  6. Grauken Arcane Patron

    Grauken
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    For maxium craziness you can connect a cesium-decay based random number generator to your game
     
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  7. lukaszek the determinator Patron

    lukaszek
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    deterministic system > RNG
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
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  8. Grauken Arcane Patron

    Grauken
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    Did you consider that most people don't give a flying fuck about this
     
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  9. FeelTheRads Arcane Patron

    FeelTheRads
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    It says: I DONT LIKE RNG WHY DO U LIKE RNG

    Guy is obsessed and keeps making this same thread every once in a while just differently worded. Points for trying, I guess.
     
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  10. Bocian Arcane

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    deterministic system > rng
     
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  11. Grauken Arcane Patron

    Grauken
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    wave function collapse > deterministic system
     
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  12. FeelTheRads Arcane Patron

    FeelTheRads
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    What the fuck does it matter? Does it make your autism flare up?

    lukaszek: Hey, guise, random numbers suck because u don't always know what's gonna happen!
    codex: That's the point, it adds extra excitement and instead of having everything be 1 or 0 you sometimes have to consider whether you can succeed or not
    lukaszek: Ah, but did you know that the random numbers are not really random, but predetermined! HAHA, suckers!

    :hmmm:
     
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  13. AdolfSatan Magister

    AdolfSatan
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    It was just a figure of speech; you don't actually have any kind of choice, otherwise I would've been in contradiction with my previous statement. Figured you'd get the implied joke with the inability to control death and all that neurotic drivel.
     
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  14. Roqua Prospernaut Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual In My Safe Space

    Roqua
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    YES!
    Since a good amount of rpg systems describe a round as a time between 6 to 10 seconds or so, without being perfectly specific, time was already non-deterministic.

    And the good thing about random number systems isn't the dice roll and luck. It is the underlying systems that allow you to manipulate the random numbers by chardev, itemization, etc. The more complex the system, the more ways to manipulate, the more fun it is.

    Non-random systems are not fun for thinking people. The lack of variables make the outcomes perfectly foreseeable for most people. What could be a beautiful menagerie of incalculable possibilities is reduced to a quarter sized chess board presenting the square root of fun. I also like when someone advertises a game as being deterministic but it allows you to increase your dodge chance and other random number elements - making the rare non-random game that isn't.

    People that prefer games with no random number manipulation are basically calling for high-stakes casino poker to be turned into solitaire. You remove the betting aspect, the luck aspect, the strategy aspect, reading people aspect, and the thrill of taking a chance without being sure of the outcome, etc. But not just that outcome, the next outcome, and the next, which all need to be manipulated as best you can, with all the various tools the systems put at your disposal, until jackpot motherfuckers.

    Why not remove itemization? Why have better items? Why have choice and consequence in the story? Why have character generation? Why have chardev systems? Why have rpgs? Why not make every game Metal Gear Whatever?

    RPGs are the sum total of its parts. If you remove the reason for all the good parts, you have a lesser product. This is not just true for non-random systems being far lesser products when viewed through an rpg lens, or a realism lens, but also for games that do not present a challenge. With no challenge you take away the reason for all those systems and are left with a dramatically inferior product.

    Also, deterministic is a word meant to manipulate perception. Its random or non-random. Or systematic. Saying deterministic is a way to dress a pig up to make it look fancy or smart. To make it more palatable. Like the MSM using undocumented immigrant instead of illegal alien. Its used to promote and agenda instead of being what it is. And that agenda is shit games with barely any rpg elements.
     
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  15. HansDampf Arcane

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    No.
     
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  16. DakaSha V Self-Ejected

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    People that claim deterministic systems are inherently better than non-deterministic systems are just trying to feign some kind of skill-superiority, while wondering why all the games that they are so proud of being good at feel like boring ass puzzles instead of proper tactics and strategy.
     
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  17. Jiggy Boobles TESTOSTERONIC As Fuck™ Patron

    Jiggy Boobles
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    Tactics and strategy are not deterministic?
     
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  18. Bester ⚰️☠️⚱️ Patron Vatnik

    Bester
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    You people will "discuss" fucking anything. Unsubscribing.
     
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  19. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
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  20. Tacgnol Shitlord Patron

    Tacgnol
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    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    I believe this statement requires further discussion.

    On topic, pseudo random number generation is usually good enough for 99% of scenarios. Poorly coded systems lead to dumb situations, like the Wasteland 2 jamming system where a 1% jam chance would routinely jam multiple times in a row (probably a badly implemented seed value).
     
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  21. Taka-Haradin puolipeikko Prestigious Gentleman Filthy Kalinite Patron

    Taka-Haradin puolipeikko
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    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Bubbles In Memoria
    Rated OP :obviously: for Salute of the Jugger mention.
     
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  22. Berekän #11231 Patron

    Berekän
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    So I wasn't crazy after all, thought it was just me.
     
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  23. Tacgnol Shitlord Patron

    Tacgnol
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    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    I can't remember whether they ever directly acknowledged the problem, but it was certainly fixed at some point.

    I believe other Unity games have had similar issues with the engine's built in randomisation library.
     
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  24. lukaszek the determinator Patron

    lukaszek
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    deterministic system > RNG
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
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  25. Black Angel Arcane

    Black Angel
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    Letting character's skill decides whether or not the character can pick that lock through dice rolls >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shitty lockpicking minigames.

    Same with hacking.

    I know this thread more or less talking about combat in general, but I just want to say.
     
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