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On the nature of trust in pseudo random number generators true nature

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by lukaszek, Aug 13, 2018.

  1. DakaSha V Self-Ejected

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    lol

    Fair point
     
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  2. NotAGolfer Arcane Patron

    NotAGolfer
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    Bullshit.
     
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  3. Roqua Prospernaut Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual In My Safe Space

    Roqua
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    YES!
    When I sit down at a poker table I have no idea if I am going to win. When I play solitaire there is no excitement and I either win or stop from boredom. If we all want to agree on something, we should agree that deterministic means "You can determine for certain ahead of time you will win, or be so bored you will stop knowing 100% you would have won."

    Shitty, childlike card systems in games can't hold a candle to real rpgs. Do you know why trading card games or whatever they call them are so popular with kids? Because kids are fucking idiots. They can't understand complex systems. Do you know why no little kids end up at the World Series of Poker, or given responsibility, or put in charge of anything? Because kids are fucking idiots. The can't understand complex systems.

    And no I'm not a poker expert. I know I would lose all my money and be humiliated if I went to the world series of poker. I've never played a game with a card system based anything and had thought it was good, deep, required thought, or presented any sort of challenge. And all those games are so ridiculously lite in everything I cannot even think of one that even slightly deserves being considered an rpg.
     
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  4. AdolfSatan Magister

    AdolfSatan
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    It's a nice argument as long as one doesn't mind your fallacious simplification of a system in order to tear it apart more conveniently. Dunno man, chess and gô are deterministic and they seem quite complex to me.
     
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  5. lukaszek the determinator Patron

    lukaszek
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    deterministic system > RNG
     
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  6. Wysardry Augur Patron

    Wysardry
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    It is common practice to set the seed value for random number generators based on the current time in microseconds, which makes it much less likely that it will give the same sequence.
     
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  7. Roqua Prospernaut Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual In My Safe Space

    Roqua
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    YES!
    Name a trading card game, especially a video game, that has nearly the possibilities or variables of chess. Now tell me how chess would make a good rpg. This is still an rpg site, right? As I said in my earlier reply, "What could be a beautiful menagerie of incalculable possibilities is reduced to a quarter sized chess board presenting the square root of fun." Your simple kids games can't even somewhat come as close to the complexities of chess, a game that predates computer games (that do all the heavy lifting for players) by 1500 years. Why is that? Kids are fucking idiots. they can't understand complex systems.

    Not all games of solitaire are winnable - but 100% of them are super boring and even more simple.

    I also play mmorpgs. Sadly, mmorpgs are pretty much the only games we can play that can provide a challenge nowadays, and some of them have a decent punishments for failure. Far more so than hitting the reload button.

    Keeping with the analogy - some people like playing poker with their friends because of their friends and everything but the poker. Some people like the thrill of gambling. Some people like manipulating all the variables and their knowledge to skew the results in their favor. The thrill isn't winning money, or all the thrill at least - it is also in outsmarting/outplaying everyone in a game where just memorizing facts and data and strategy isn't everything. Its also the correct application of all that and so much more.

    That's how I feel about rpgs.

    Can we all agree that the correct word that should be used for non-random systems is systematic? If we can't agree on that, there is no point in discussing anything. If you disagree please tell me why or how deterministic is different than systematic.

    And the best argument against what I am saying, or my analogy at least, is the best/most winning way to play poker correctly is systematically. The player cannot manipulate the system. The understand the system to play the odss, not counting the outside factor. Blackjack may be a better example to understand as most people have a general idea of when to hit, double down, etc. I would dislike any rpg that required as systematic strategy as poker.

    I thought the counter-argument was going to go a different way, in which case I would have had an old twisteroo to spring. But you guys argue wrong. In any case real rpgs are the shit, systematic card games are for fucking idiots, and this discussion should be in general gaming since what kid's call deterministic systems are antithetical to real rpgs aimed at an adult audience.
     
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  8. Norfleet Moderator

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    The perfect tabletop RPG emulation would let me actually throw the simulated dice. Because dice aren't random at all, and anyone who's been thrashed in a real-life game of Monopoly by me, as well all the casinos that kicked me out off the Craps table, know this.
     
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  9. lukaszek the determinator Patron

    lukaszek
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    deterministic system > RNG
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
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  10. AdolfSatan Magister

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    I must ask, Roqua: is English your mother tongue? Your ideas are scrambled nearly to the point of illegibility. This is no ad hominem, mind you. Consider it outside of the debate at hand, but it's quite hard to follow your constant leaps of logic; you need to rethink and reorder your discourse if you want to be understood.

    Perhaps I oughta've clarified. I was referring to this portion of your post in particular:

    Which, when applied to chess proves itself quite a vacuous statement, as you readily admit.

    In any case, you seem to have misunderstood my point. The idea behind my post was to point to the fact that deterministic systems needn't fall into the ridiculous oversimplification you keep portraying by bringing card games (which is also completely uncalled for, given how irrelevant it is to the discussion) to the table.
    A game in which the outcomes of each variable are predefined (weapon A always does X damage against armor B) doesn't mean absolute predictability as to the final outcome of a battle; the only difference against RNG would be that X, instead of representing any number from 1-4 would always be 4, and players would need to plan and act accordingly to these rules.
    Just like chess, where every piece has an absolute and invariable attack movement yet every match implies a new challenge with nearly infinite variables. The game becomes unpredictable due to skill and adaptability rather than sheer luck.

    Call it how you may, it's irrelevant to the question.
     
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  11. Mustawd Arcane

    Mustawd
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    Hi, I believe you haven’t heard of chess.

    chess.com
     
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  12. Roqua Prospernaut Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual In My Safe Space

    Roqua
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    YES!
    Look, I really don't want to do this. I ask simple questions. INo answer. If anyone wants anything clarified then at least make an attempt at answering the questions I asked.

    Chess is a good game. I can't think of any game that is on the PC and is non-random/systematic and comparable to chess other than chess. I've never played Go, but I'm guessing it predates the PC and wasn't made for the PC. If there is a game marketed as an rpg that is non-random/systematic, and comparable to chess, let me know. What I do know for certain is chess is not an rpg, has no rpg elements, and, vastly more complex than any non-random systematic games people peddle, and although I sometimes enjoy chess, the basis of chess and the mechanics are antithetical to rpgs.

    Since this is the rpg forum, on an rpg site, and the games I've tried that promote themselves as non-random/systematic games and show up in Steam's rpg section are almost always trading card games, or games with some child gimmick mechanic every bit as sophomoric, devoid of complexity, and are all antithetical to rpgs.

    And yes, English is my mother tongue. And yes, sometimes/often I am not too clear and my communication ability definitely has a lot of room for improvement. But, I am able to answer questions people ask, and address all their points - something 99.9% of this community is not able to do.

    Chess? The game I fucking mentioned in my very first post in this thread? No, I've never heard of it. What is it? Some kind of game with complexity and tons of variables and options that almost every kid in the world sucks at? It sounds like an rpg. I'll have to check it out.

    --------------------------
    I'm going to make this simple by asking one question - please name a game that is in steam with an rpg tag (90% of the games on steam show up there so this isn't being exclusive - there literally was just a point and click adventure game with zero rpg elements that even showed up there, and now steam considers puzzle games with no rpg elements rpgs too) that has non-random/systematic combat that you all agree proves me wrong and really highlights how great the non-random/systematic approach can be for the rpg genre. A game that really shows how great rpgs could be if I people would just stop liking stupid systems and games like I like. You will probably say Telepath Tactics, which is the most adult example I can think of, but as an rpg system or game it sucks. I'm not a huge fan of the FFT type games so I don't know if any of them have good combat, but the trading card games certainly don't, and I don't want to knock Telepath tactics or its developer but it was really simple and easy. I played a game on the 3DS like it that had a decent challenge on the difficulty level I chose called Fire Emblem something or other, but that certainly was not non-random/systematic. And, as an rpg, is sucked. I don't know if that genre is supposed to be easy, but I kind of group those kinds of games in with Blackguards, and Blackguards 1 was fucking awesome in almost every aspect. Two tried hard to be non-random/systematic (but couldn't get there completely while still having non-retarded chardev so failed at it) and it sucked so badly compared to BG 1 it hurts.

    So, just one example of what I am missing out on. I'm willing to bet it won't be a trading card game, which definitely makes up the vast bulk of the games marketed as rpgs that are non-random/systematic and are the popular past, present, and future of non-random/systematic games mislabeled as rpgs.
     
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  13. NotAGolfer Arcane Patron

    NotAGolfer
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    Chess isn't necessarily 100% deterministic anyway. Just use a random number generator (hardware, so real random numbers) and let it decide the next move. Which needs some sort of translation algorithm, like numbering the alphabet.
    That's not deterministic at all. In the same vein there might be nondeterministic elements in the way our minds work too (who really knows at this point?), so in a way your opponent and you might also be RNGs.
    Still don't know what this fucking thread is supposed to be about though, some weird agenda cooked up in some autist mind it seems.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2018
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  14. AdolfSatan Magister

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    I think you're still not getting the point. Chess was simply an example as for what the capabilities to be found in deterministic systems are. And I'm not saying there are any good RPGs with this feature —well, none that spring to mind atm*—, but that there could be if it was properly implemented, and it might pose an interesting challenge to the player.

    *though since you brought it up, I belive Tactics Ogre, Fire Emblem, and Binding of Isaac all have a pseudo-deterministic approach with regards to RNG in that it's seeded at the beginning of each match and can no longer be affected once it's set. The issue with these titles is that some might not consider them good, as in your case, or RPGs at all.

    Again, if you want to be understood, you need to straighten up your discourse. You continue to babble about kids being stupid, but you, a grown-ass man, keep failing to communicate clearly in your own fucking language.
     
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  15. lukaszek the determinator Patron

    lukaszek
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    deterministic system > RNG
     
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  16. Roqua Prospernaut Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual In My Safe Space

    Roqua
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    YES!

    You were somewhat able to semi-answer a direct question. Bless you. One of those games is on steam and IT LOOKS FUCKING AWESOME? Way better than real rpgs with rpg systems.

    Did all you people miss me not only mention chess in the very first post I made in this thread, but the beautiful comparison I made with it as an example to the types of you games you people love? I may not communicate clearly, but you do not comprehend clearly. If I take the time and put some effort into I can communicate clearly. That isn't really the case with people with poor comprehensions.

    Are you saying kids are not stupid? I guess kids have good taste, are mature, responsible, and capable of making great decisions. They also have super strength, buzz-saw hands, and laser beam eyes.

    But, anyhow, I suspended my hiatus only temporarily so I have to leave you fine folks again. But I do appreciate you actually replying to a super direct, simple question. Most of you people are not capable of that and you restored my faith in humanity a little. If case it is coming off as sarcastic - I'm not trying to be. I really do appreciate it.
     
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  17. Roqua Prospernaut Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual In My Safe Space

    Roqua
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    YES!
    First - I can play chess right now on the PC like any single player rpg. Pnp games, almost all of which are based on random number systems, were all two or more players needed to play until when? They went on the computer.

    That was a really, really bad argument.

    Hard West - almost no chardev, or easily one of the most rpg-lite, ridiculous chardev systems ever put in a game. I'm sure kids love it for being trading card game based, and so super simple and easy to understand for toddlers+. Hard West was a very bad game and a way worse rpg than Blackguards 2, which is a really bad game and a way worse rpg than Blackguards 1.

    If such a simple, lite game is your example of the glory of non-random/systematic games and what the future of the rpg genre could be why do you guys even post here? Seriously. I don't understand and haven't for over a decade why a site with rpg in its title has so few fans of them.

    But that's it. I really got to re-expel myself and stop getting sucked back in. I did have fun winning though. Thanks guys. Piece out and have fun with your Pokeman cards and games.
     
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  18. Roqua Prospernaut Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual In My Safe Space

    Roqua
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    YES!
    Lastly - I want to apologize for being mean. I do not want to be. I was able to do it pretty well for a couple posts, but it just sort of happens. I sincerely apologize for being insulting, mean, or undermining the beliefs and feelings of anyone in this thread. I am putting effort into being less of a jerk and am even taking medication.

    Thank you for sharing your ideas with me and responding to my ideas. All ideas and opinions are valid. I did not win anything as I stated above, as winning is impossible in the marketplace of ideas. If people do not like the games this site is about they should be as welcomed and appreciated as the few people here that do like rpgs - and their opinions and views accepted and cherished. I did not do this and it was wrong of me and not reflective of who I want to be.

    My apologies again; please excuse my poor manners and boorish behavior.
     
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  19. FeelTheRads Arcane Patron

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    Yes, because chess is what you can expect from game developers.

    Here's how your "argumentation works": deterministic systems are automatically good because chess is good


    Everyone is so fucking proud of having "heard" of chess, jeez. :roll:
     
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  20. Mustawd Arcane

    Mustawd
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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Also, Roqua check out Telepath Tactics. There is some rng thrown in but it’s mostly deterministic. It’s kinda like a Fire Emblem-like in a way.

    His article on randomness in turn based games is a pretty interesting read, even if you disagree. A lot of his other articles are kinda meh and retarded, but the one below is at least worth a 30 second look and on-topic.

    http://sinisterdesign.net/unpredictability-and-control-in-turn-based-combat-an-examination/
     
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  21. AdolfSatan Magister

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    Mustawd, are you retarded or is it merely a reading comprehension issue? He clearly meant that no game developer has produced something that matches the quality of chess, not that chess hasn't been digitized, and Roqua already mentioned Telepath Tactics.

    Well, even your writing's clearer here. Now I'm confused as to whether you're honestly dealing with some personality disorder or if this is some masterful trolling. In any case, I'm quite amused.

    Don't know why you keep sticking to absolutist ideas though. Can't speak for lukasz, but I at no point pushed RNG aside. I love RPGs with the traditional system, and will gladly agree that it has some awesome stuff going for it (say, the possibility of critical successes/failures which often bring hilarious results), but I also believe that determinism could shield some great results as well, and it'd be good to see some devs pushing further in that direction.

    Some kids are, some adults aren't. Get out more.
     
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  22. Mustawd Arcane

    Mustawd
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    Pretty sure I didn’t read any of that in the post you’re describing. Are YOU being retarded? Not sure why you’re extrapulating a hidden meaning from another person’s post. There is nothing that says to me, even in context, that would allude to what you’re referring to.

    Oh ok. I hadn’t seen that.
     
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  23. FeelTheRads Arcane Patron

    FeelTheRads
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    That's because you're fucking retarded. If you think I didn't know chess computer games existed, you are fucking retarded.

    And your "lol did you hear about chess" remark is still stupid and pointless. The fact that computer chess games exist says nothing about the quality of "deterministic" systems.
     
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  24. Mustawd Arcane

    Mustawd
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    Oh ok. We’re all retarded sometimes. Fair enough.

    lukaszek , going back to the OP, are
    you saying that presentation of rng in games can cause distrust by the players?

    If not, can you elaborate on the trust aspect? If you discussed it in the OP just retraded rating me and I’ll go back and read it. Im slightly retarded this week.
     
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  25. lukaszek the determinator Patron

    lukaszek
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    deterministic system > RNG
     
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