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On the nature of trust in pseudo random number generators true nature

Roqua

Prospernaut
Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual In My Safe Space
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Mustawd, are you retarded or is it merely a reading comprehension issue? He clearly meant that no game developer has produced something that matches the quality of chess, not that chess hasn't been digitized, and Roqua already mentioned Telepath Tactics.

Lastly - I want to apologize for being mean. I do not want to be. I was able to do it pretty well for a couple posts, but it just sort of happens. I sincerely apologize for being insulting, mean, or undermining the beliefs and feelings of anyone in this thread. I am putting effort into being less of a jerk and am even taking medication.

Thank you for sharing your ideas with me and responding to my ideas. All ideas and opinions are valid. I did not win anything as I stated above, as winning is impossible in the marketplace of ideas. If people do not like the games this site is about they should be as welcomed and appreciated as the few people here that do like rpgs - and their opinions and views accepted and cherished. I did not do this and it was wrong of me and not reflective of who I want to be.

My apologies again; please excuse my poor manners and boorish behavior.
Well, even your writing's clearer here. Now I'm confused as to whether you're honestly dealing with some personality disorder or if this is some masterful trolling. In any case, I'm quite amused.

Don't know why you keep sticking to absolutist ideas though. Can't speak for lukasz, but I at no point pushed RNG aside. I love RPGs with the traditional system, and will gladly agree that it has some awesome stuff going for it (say, the possibility of critical successes/failures which often bring hilarious results), but I also believe that determinism could shield some great results as well, and it'd be good to see some devs pushing further in that direction.

Are you saying kids are not stupid? I guess kids have good taste, are mature, responsible, and capable of making great decisions.
Some kids are, some adults aren't. Get out more.

Smart kids are the exception. My oldest daughter is smart - not compared to the kids that go on the genius kid's show with Doogie Howser, but she gets straight As in all AP classes and that kind of shit. Do you know who she is stupid compared to? Herself when she is an adult with a fully formed brain, and the knowledge, wisdom, and experience to more fully utilize her brain in a much more effective, responsible, and intelligent way. Her taste in games, books, food, etc, will also change as she matures.

In the earlier post you said my reasoning was fallacious. And ended the post with the biggest and most obvious kind of fallacy - the non sequitur. Logic that does not follow. In a blatant and egregious example. I think you would do well in making good points that support your argument and respond to the other person's argument rather than do the college kid thing and call out a person for doing (X) and then immediately do a more egregious example of (X). You have a sounder mind than most on this forum, and you also sort of read and somewhat reply to the points someone stated instead of trying to collect buttons for one-line quips - all of this I appreciate and like. And, again, as I stated above I have my own issues that go beyond communication - so I am not saying I am great and do nothing wrong and you are stupid and do nothing right so listen to me. Even when I have a good point I often lose it by focusing on nonsense and attacking people. I need to improve and am trying to improve.

I agree with your point about absolutes. Absolutes are not good, and I know of no examples of a good rpg, or any rpg, that was completely random. In fact, the elements I like most about it, the very way to manipulate the random, is by non-random/systematic systems like class, race, and character development systems.

But the truth is also true in the opposite. There is no completely non-random/systematic rpg I can think of. There are games mislabeled as rpgs, sure, but no actual rpgs.

So, we certainly could have an argument about how a game is better or worse at various levels of random/systematic mixes. I am more than happy with people at least admitting that a pure non-random/systematic rpg would not work and would inherently suck. I can say for 100% certain I would have zero interest in an game calling itself an rpg that was completely random with no systems to provide a framework for the random such as classes, races, skills, abilities, attributes, weapons, items, chargen, chardev, leveling, etc. The rpg systems that I love.

And lastly, it sounded like I was bashing Telepath Tactics in my earlier post, which was not my goal. It is a quality game in the FFT vein. My views on it are similar to FFT and other games of that ilk. They just don't offer me much. There isn't many carrots on a stick. The big carrot is combat, and once I get good enough to know I am going to win them all the game gets boring to me. The same happens in arpgs to me too, or other rpgs. The core reason is the same reason I dislike pure dungeon crawlers - more dungeon just isn't enough of a hook for me - I need content like quests, towns, npcs, story, etc, to break up the monotony. I enjoyed the rpg that the dev of Telepath tactics made prior to Telepath Tactics. Or I am assuming Telepath RPG was made by him.

If more of the FFT type of games were like Blackguards 1 - I would be a huge fan of that genre. And I admitted the Fire Emblem on the 3ds did have a challenge on the difficulty level where your units permanently die when they die. But sadly, it just didn't have the systems, itemization, or interesting chardev enough to keep my interest either.


Anyway, I just wanted to clarify and extend and olive branch. I really do need to re-eject. Thank you all for the discussion, and sorry for being a jerk in a lot of my earlier posts.
 

AdolfSatan

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Smart kids are the exception. My oldest daughter is smart - not compared to the kids that go on the genius kid's show with Doogie Howser, but she gets straight As in all AP classes and that kind of shit. Do you know who she is stupid compared to? Herself when she is an adult with a fully formed brain, and the knowledge, wisdom, and experience to more fully utilize her brain in a much more effective, responsible, and intelligent way. Her taste in games, books, food, etc, will also change as she matures.
I wouldn't say smart kids are an exception. Smart people in general are. Stupid kids will make stupid adults, and the greater majority of those will never see any valuable progression as to what one might call maturity.
Valuing kids for what they are, you'll find many which behave responsibly and intelligently. In accordance to their condition of being children.
In juxtaposition, I know way too many adults which lack most, if not all the positive attributes you brought up. Hell, you could even make a case for people getting stupider the further they progress into adulthood, since college is the last time many will use their brains in any meaningful way, and as age will see them getting unfit of the body, the same will for the mind.

In the earlier post you said my reasoning was fallacious. And ended the post with the biggest and most obvious kind of fallacy - the non sequitur.
I honestly see no leap of logic there. I was pointing out toward this line
we should agree that deterministic means "You can determine for certain ahead of time you will win, or be so bored you will stop knowing 100% you would have won."
as an oversimplification in how a deterministic system might be reduced to a bare-bones mechanic easily torn apart, and followed with an example of how said system might provide an ever renewable challenge when properly implemented (as opposed to yours with very basic card games).

I agree with your point about absolutes. Absolutes are not good, and I know of no examples of a good rpg, or any rpg, that was completely random. In fact, the elements I like most about it, the very way to manipulate the random, is by non-random/systematic systems like class, race, and character development systems.

But the truth is also true in the opposite. There is no completely non-random/systematic rpg I can think of. There are games mislabeled as rpgs, sure, but no actual rpgs.
On that I agree; lamentably I'm no game designer nor care for becoming one, so I'll just have to wait and see if someday anyone decides to go ahead and make such game. It wouldn't need to ditch itemization, leveling or any of the qualities inherent to a proper RPG, it'd only need to make their attributes non-random (which doesn't imply they mightn't be variable).

Anyway, I just wanted to clarify and extend and olive branch. I really do need to re-eject. Thank you all for the discussion, and sorry for being a jerk in a lot of my earlier posts.
No offense taken. Peace, and hope you can work out your anger issues or whatever that's holding you back.
 

Roqua

Prospernaut
Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual In My Safe Space
Joined
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YES!
I keep getting sucked back in. Stupid kids are the rule. Smart kids are the exception. Kids are stupid, irresponsible, and make poor decisions. How can I prove this? Look at the rules and laws in any country presently and throughout history.

And the majority of stupid kids (the vast majority of kids) grow up to be far less stupid, far more reasonable, far more competent, far more functional adults. It always has been this way and always will be this way (not counting cloning or future technology that would change how shit is).



Second reply- Ended the post. Not related to that statement. But I don't want to get into and ruin a good thing.



Good talking to you. I really got to stop posting though. I'm glad we agree that the absolutes are bad. In my opinion in most ways and most subjects outside of hard science, not just rpg systems.
 

NotAGolfer

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Divinity: Original Sin 2
His article on randomness in turn based games is a pretty interesting read, even if you disagree. A lot of his other articles are kinda meh and retarded, but the one below is at least worth a 30 second look and on-topic.

http://sinisterdesign.net/unpredictability-and-control-in-turn-based-combat-an-examination/
Yeah, I disagree with him.
Actually I agreed for about two thirds of the article (even though I am pro RNG but I'm not your typical Codexer so I listen to well formed arguments) and then he did a 180 and completely contradicted himself in a hilarious way.

like
While predictability hinges on responsiveness in real-time games, in turn-based games, it is largely a matter of determinism. Many turn-based games (particularly those with combat systems built to imitate the D&D model) feature battles in which the player can engage in the same preparation and use the same tactics, but nonetheless get vastly different results based on invisible, randomized numbers outside of the player’s control. Thus, although randomized results create uncertainty, they can also sabotage the sense that a player is responsible for her failures, which is bad.
True dat. You can overdo RNG influence in a game, and the game suffers for it if you don't give the player tools to get back at least some amount of certaintly that his chosen tactics will work.

but then:
Even a milder status effect, like “Blind,” would become overpowered in a deterministic system. Not only it would take effect 100% of the time, it would necessarily cause the hit rate on physical attacks to drop all the way to 0%! Blind would essentially become an automatic “Render Physical Attacker Completely Useless” card.

The solution I chose was to make negative status effects take hold only some of the time. This limited application of randomized results turns negative status effects from a way of automatically crippling the enemy into a gambit you can try–and for which you had best have a contingency plan in case of failure!
:lol:

Dodge chance is an even worse heresy to put in a game for a deterministic gameplay apostle. And funny how he sugarcoated it by claiming that a guaranteed hit would be the "default state" and the dodge chance just a minor deviation from that design philosophy.

I liked the parts about "possibility space" and how there are other things besides an overreliance on RNGs that you can use to make your game more unpredictable for the player.
 

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