On the shoulders of giants: a new multiple choices LP!

[Jick Magger]

I confess I'm not familiar with how Greek hoplites used spear tactics, but would this work?

The ancient Greeks (1000-400BC) would just get into bigass shoving matches with one another reminiscent of a scrum in Rugby, with peltasts and skirmishers thinning out the hopilites before they went to engage. Macedonian tactics were basically to use the Phalanx defensively to pin the enemy down while cavalry rode to the flanks and used hammer and anvil tactics.

The way I see it, the enemy basically has us dead to rights physically, so we need to try and make the climb up the hill as hazardous, exhausting, and demoralizing as we possibly can. Set up punji sticks like Oscar suggested, maybe spread out little obsidian caltrops (because those guys are definitely gonna be running up bare-foot), maybe even fell some of the trees nearby, tie the logs together, and send them rolling down the hill when they get too close. Make getting up the hill mentally and physically exhausting so that they're much easier to deal with up-close.

 

[Computer Gamer Refugee]

Oh, one other twist. We have the time, there should be bonfires on our lines. It will both please the spirits of fire and give plenty of raw material for the apprentice fire wielders...

 

[Esquilax]

Form a rough phalanx of the obsidian and stone warriors in the centre (about three ranks deep, so all can throw their javelins and so it's sufficiently long to avoid being encircled). Bears to the side to counter-attack or defend against encirclement (likely they'll give the centre formation enough time to readjust to the flanking attempt). Apprentices just behind the main phalanx and gunning for the giant.

I also say we get the men up an hour early to dig some punji stakes to the sides and in front of us.

What would we dig them out with? We only have axes and spears. We also won't be able to cover them up later either. We're not going to get encircled by these guys, they're simply going to be coming at us with everything they've got.

I concur with the plan for the fire apprentices to gun for the giant.

 

[kazgar]

I think have the bears in the second line/reserves is dangerous, while untested, what's to stop them being spooked by wolves/giants/magic/whatever and running amok behind our lines? Or just smelling blood and breaking any bonds, they're untested and barely tamed wild beats, not elite bear cavalry. They shouldn't be front line troops, but should be kept for a shock charge or flank attack, but also away from the core forces.

Otherwise its a battle between outnumbered by undisciplined forces verses our hopefully well trained and well equipped militia. I hope we've learned the lessons of the scouting party that got attacked and understand the bloodlust/berserk of the opposition. If our spears were pike-length i'd say just wedge them in the ground and let the enemy waves impale themselves upon obsidian.

 

[Urist McLurker]

I have a very unorthodox(read= risky and stupid) plan to suggest(that I'm not all that keen on suggesting)
The way I see it, the enemy are beasts and will be charging blindly to overwhelm us, something they very clearly can do to win. The top of the hill is very useful for our ranged weaponry (javelins and fire), but not so much for our close quarters weaponry. However, the downwards slope of the hill is a different story; we have spears, they do not.


I suggest we have the obsidian warriors and the apprentices at the top of the hill to rain down hurt onto the attackers until they are about 60-70 percent(?) the way up the hill, then retreat to slightly down from the hill to the other side, where the rest of our army is waiting.

The apprentices will take up a flank each, the obsidian warriors (with the stone warriors slightly away on the right flank) would then take up a sort of phalanx formation with the spears pointed to the top of the hill.

The feral humans will be charging directly to the top, and the momentum of them charging wildly up a hill will carry them over to charging wildly down a hill, making them less well footed and controlled of their movements(from what I've experienced, running down a steep hill is very difficult; having superhuman speed and running down a steep hill sounds suicidal to me), taking them straight into our spears.Which will then be switched for axes(if need be).

Because the foe will be funneled to the tip of the hill, we'll be able to bombard the flanks with fire from the apprentices as they come down the hill, which will keep them bottled where their numbers will count for less and the terrain(a downwards slope + dead bodies) will make what they do have(their fists/teeth/feet) less useful.

The bears shall take up a slight left flank to be released when the left flank is being turned. The stone warriors shall charge into the right flank as they attempt to circle our obsidian warriors(which should happen naturally due to superior numbers).


Basically make them go up the hill to the tip like an arrow < after being pelted from range(they'll be drawn there by our ranged troops)
Which, after they reach the top of the hill will have them expand outwards like > as they go down the hill, but kept in shape by fire like =><
our obsidian warriors will(simply by being there) force them to spread out again, such as >=><
this will end up with our obsidian warriors surrounded, that is when our flanks(bears and stone warriors + support from apprentices) will charge into the flanks of the feral men, causing them to be met with a W shape, with them fitting in like a ^ at the top.
We should focus on killing the bulk of their army. Our Fire Wielder can deal with the elite targets.

We should also attempt to do everything we possibly can to make the trip up the hill dangerous, painfully, and generally horrible for them as others have suggested. If possible, use the stone spears as stakes, the stone warriors ought not need them in the plan I've suggested.

At the very least I hope I might have suggested something useful for a different plan, as I highly doubt this one will be approved or would even work.

 

[Multiple Sarcasm]

25 men and 7 bears will not hold the survivors of 140 warriors

Why would they? They're an expendable shock charge to tie up the front of the attack on the slope. Obsidian is to make a second charge once the stone has engaged, not died.
Being on higher ground gives our spear-bearing troops extra momentum when charging - why waste that advantage by standing still? We aren't being attacked by cavalry. And climbing uphill, the beastmen won't have sufficient momentum of their own to impale themselves on the spears - double the tactical waste.

I did consider trying to flank with the bears, but:
- There's only 7 of them - against whatever much greater force they'd be flanking. And their mass and size won't allow them to just plow through like horses.
- We lose the shock charge, of which a significant value lied in surprise of being charged by "wtfbears?!" And charging down a steep hill, their mass and size would actually allow them to plow through a very short distance.


PS: On another note, I would've preferred we started on the top of the hill, to give the beastmen a longer climb, our artillery a longer window and our spearmen a longer charge. But we didn't end up on the top of the hill for some reason (glances at Curufinwe), so we have what we have.

 

[Curufinwe]

The way I see it, the enemy basically has us dead to rights physically, so we need to try and make the climb up the hill as hazardous, exhausting, and demoralizing as we possibly can. Set up punji sticks like Oscar suggested, maybe spread out little obsidian caltrops (because those guys are definitely gonna be running up bare-foot), maybe even fell some of the trees nearby, tie the logs together, and send them rolling down the hill when they get too close. Make getting up the hill mentally and physically exhausting so that they're much easier to deal with up-close.

You have not managed to fell trees yet with your obsidian axes. Too brittle. Besides, you don't have time to make all those preparations. Bonfires sure, it won't take much, but nothing major. You arrived here with only hours to spare on the enemy.

Or, you could make preparations, but then you'll have to face them after a forced march and without having rested. Your choice.

 

[Curufinwe]

Btw Curufinwe , can you summarize what kind of feat have the tribe witnessed about the wielder (and his apprentices)? I am particularly interested if the wielder can perform AoE magic such as "Rain of Fire" or summoning a meteor from above

No meteor strike nor rain of fire, sorry. For now, fireballs with an explosion radius of a few meters, jets of flame from his hands and, in one extreme case, a pillar of fire a pair of meters wide and several tall.
The apprentices are more or less limited to the jets for now, and smaller than his.

 

[Jick Magger]

Or, you could make preparations, but then you'll have to face them after a forced march and without having rested. Your choice.

Not worth it, then. Only real big advantage we'll have over our enemies is being well-rested.
Make whatever little preparations we can, like setting up bonfires n' shit. Need to build up whatever little advantages we can.

Just a little question; judging by what the scout said have the ferals been marching all night? Have we given them any significant amount of time to rest?

 

[Curufinwe]

Just a little question; judging by what the scout said have the ferals been marching all night? Have we given them any significant amount of time to rest?

From the moment the scouts spotted them the ferals have not stopped, indeed.

 

[Curufinwe]

PS: On another note, I would've preferred we started on the top of the hill, to give the beastmen a longer climb, our artillery a longer window and our spearmen a longer charge. But we didn't end up on the top of the hill for some reason (glances at Curufinwe), so we have what we have.

That's not a problem. I just put the black oval there because it was easier to spot. We're in the planning phase, if you want to stand on top of the hill on top of the hill you go.

 

[Multiple Sarcasm]

That's not a problem. I just put the black oval there because it was easier to spot. We're in the planning phase, if you want to stand on top of the hill on top of the hill you go.

Coolios. If it incurs no penalties, then I suggest we place our initial position on the very edge of the gray area.

We don't know the actual distances, though. If we stood on the gray, would we have enough time to intercept the beastmen if they tried to bypass us to the village?

 

[newcomer]

Btw Curufinwe , can you summarize what kind of feat have the tribe witnessed about the wielder (and his apprentices)? I am particularly interested if the wielder can perform AoE magic such as "Rain of Fire" or summoning a meteor from above

No meteor strike nor rain of fire, sorry. For now, fireballs with an explosion radius of a few meters, jets of flame from his hands and, in one extreme case, a pillar of fire a pair of meters wide and several tall.
The apprentices are more or less limited to the jets for now, and smaller than his.

Oh crap
But nevermind, I want to ask again: How big is the giant and his axes? Say that we have 75 obsidian spearmen on a line (guarding from left to right), is he so big that he can, say, wipe 50 / all of them with one swipe? Or is he only someone very tall & big (perhaps 2 adults standing on top of the other) and his axe is only somewhat bigger than normal?
Oh, one more thing: For the pillar of flame, can he use it to trap a group of people in a big circle (say, the entire beastmen army?), and how long can he maintain it?

 

[treave]

Too bad we don't have zebras anymore.

Are there any stones or rocks? We should gather those as ammo just in case. How long do the fires from the apprentices last? Could we set fire and utterly block off the easy pathway to the village temporarily for the duration of the battle - if so, do it.

If we want to be at the top of the hill, we can attempt to sacrifice maybe about 5 or so obsidian troops as skirmishers. Have them approach, throw a round of javelins, and then move back up the hill to attract their attention. Bears should be used once they're close to the peak, but not before. Fire should be used behind the bears, not before, to drive them forward.

 

[Esquilax]

Given Curufinwe's info about the capabilities of the Wielder and his apprentices, as well as the posts from Urist McLurker, Vernydar, oscar and Multiple Sarcasm, I think I can provide a condensed plan for the battle.

We would divide our army into 3 groups.

Group A: Our core group, which would bear the brunt of the assault. This would be comprised of the fire apprentices and obsidian warriors. Because the fire apprentices' powers are limited to short-mid range flame jets (let's say roughly 5m in distance) they would stand alongside our main force. They would stand on the steep incline, where the reach of the spears would be most effective against the rampaging hordes.

Group B: This will be the stone warriors from the tribe that joined us. They will be separate from the rest of our men and they will attack the enemy's left flank. Their weapons are weaker, but if the beastmen are distracted by our main force, the stone warriors could do some damage.

Group C: Bears, approaching from the right flank. I don't want them with the fire apprentices for two reasons: (1) they'll get spooked by the fire, and (2) we don't know about the capabilities of the beastmen leader. If he can Charm animals, it would be devastating. That's why we have to strike their flanks AFTER the leader has engaged in melee combat with our core forces.

Now, the purpose of all of this is to pack the enemy in very tightly for as long as possible. From what Curufinwe said, the Wielder of Fire can throw fireballs, and I am assuming he can throw fireballs not just in a straight direction, but that he can lob them in an arc as if he were shooting a basketball. With the enemy packed inside so tightly and flanked from both directions, this would give the Wielder of Fire just the right opening he needs to lob a fireball right in the middle of the enemies ranks, burning them from within. The effects that this would have on morale, and the death toll that it would incur would be brutal. Because the beastmen are so powerful in melee, the window of opportunity for the Wielder of Fire to toast these guys would be small. However, I am certain that our men can hold together long enough to give him enough time to throw a few fireballs into the enemies' ranks.

Thoughts?

 

[Vernydar]

As to the contingency plan: prepare the best runner to be sent out if we're in dire straits to inform our camp in advance. Due to our reasonably defensive position, the militia should be able to hold if warned.

Just a point, since I dont' have time now and will read later. This IS our militia, every man who can fight is here. BAck home some might be trained, but we have no weapons.

Also, no warrior is expendable here. These are NOT the ones who attacked the tribe so long ago. This is just a scouting party

I will say it again, those barbarians were "more numerous than the pebbles on the shore". These are just 150. Way too little, this is just the first wave

 

[Multiple Sarcasm]

It's tough, but the hard fact is, in battle, people are going to die. Holding back and wasting our advantages will only end in more deaths. Shock troops serve a clear purpose - they are not throwing their lives away.
And if you're afraid this is only the beastman scouting party, then what difference do you believe a few dozen men will make against a force "more numerous than the pebbles on the shore"? Either the survivors were exaggerating and this is a full war party or we're doomed, anyway.

 

[Vernydar]

It's tough, but the hard fact is, in battle, people are going to die. Holding back and wasting our advantages will only end in more deaths. Shock troops serve a clear purpose - they are not throwing their lives away for nothing.
And if you're afraid this is only the beastman scouting party, then what difference do you believe a few dozen men will make against a force "more numerous than the pebbles on the shore"? Either the survivors were exaggerating and this is a full war party or we're doomed, anyway.

We are here to fight and I realize this. But I won't use anything as expendable troops if I can help it. It's a simple matter of winning with the lowest possible casualties amongst us. And possibly, killing them all.

Which is why I don't want ANY charge unless they are already faltering. A straight, tight line with spears and the hills should be able to inflict horrible casualties to the disordered charge, while losing few men. Bears can flank, fire wielders hit people from behind. In history, unorganized rabble NEVER won against disciplined formations, unless when the difference in numbers was too great. Or when the formation sprung up a trap. Since these people will not try to trap us because they are berserkers, a tight formation with reach and height advantage is our best bet.

To Urist McLurker, sorry I think your plan is too dangerous. And besides, our people are not trained enough for such complex movements. They are still militia. We need to stick to rather simple movements.

Esquilax, I am not sure about what you wrote. I prefer a single line of warriors like I wrote in my update because I like the 100vs 140 odds better than 75 against 140, even for a while. 75 have a higher chance of being overrun by the shockwave. Also, I won't plan anything for the wielder of fire. We can't give him orders, he's a question mark. I'd not base my strategy hoping he will follow it.

Also note I did already say in my strategy that the leader and his troops are primary targets, both for thrown spear and fire.

I would not put up any bonfire. It can make the bears lose control. And we do not have time to prepare traps. So I think the plan I wrote is still our best bet

 

[newcomer]

I'll go with Vernydar , sounds simple & viable. In addition, I would like to propose 2 suggestions on the wielder, which are:

- If we reach the scenario where the beastmen are trying to retreat, the wielder will erect a firewall (not to be confused with the firewall in our PCs / laptops) behind them to prevent them from escaping & we proceed to massarce them
- Similarly if we are forced to retreat, the wielder will erect a firewall to buy us escape time, thus not wasting the lives of our spearmen

 

[Multiple Sarcasm]

We are here to fight and I realize this. But I won't use anything as expendable troops if I can help it. It's a simple matter of winning with the lowest possible casualties amongst us. And possibly, killing them all.

Which is why I don't want ANY charge unless they are already faltering. A straight, tight line with spears and the hills should be able to inflict horrible casualties to the disordered charge, while losing few men. Bears can flank, fire wielders hit people from behind. In history, unorganized rabble NEVER won against disciplined formations, unless when the difference in numbers was too great. Or when the formation sprung up a trap. Since these people will not try to trap us because they are berserkers, a tight formation with reach and height advantage is our best bet.

Again: the beastmen cannot charge up a steep slope. We do not have shields to turtle. We do not have the numbers or strong flanks for a spear hedge. Holding a spear line (not even pikes) on a hill against more numerous and stronger infantry will not save lives. The beastmen will just climb up and beat the spears to the side or yank them from our warriors' hands with their superior strength.
If that still doesn't make sense to you, then I doubt anything else I say will. Do what you want.

 

[Internet]

zip

I approve this, sounds reasonable enough.

Esquilax Being a bit of a history geek, I'll point you here and here for some basic info on ancient times' battle formations (phalanx/maniples).

 

[Stygian Lurker]

I support Esquilax's plan.

 

[Esquilax]

It's tough, but the hard fact is, in battle, people are going to die. Holding back and wasting our advantages will only end in more deaths. Shock troops serve a clear purpose - they are not throwing their lives away.
And if you're afraid this is only the beastman scouting party, then what difference do you believe a few dozen men will make against a force "more numerous than the pebbles on the shore"? Either the survivors were exaggerating and this is a full war party or we're doomed, anyway.

This is true, sometimes you need to make a ruthless play in order to win the battle. However, I feel like you're throwing lives away in a manner that isn't strategic. Our 75 obsidian warriors and the two fire apprentices that I'm proposing will face our enemies head-on are the most numerous of our forces, the most skilled, with the best weaponry, a distinct terrain advantage, and ranged weaponry to whittle down the enemy before melee combat begins... and it's STILL going to be extremely difficult for them to hold up for a prolonged period of time. If you throw the meager amount of stone warriors on the front-line, they'll get torn to shreds for no reason.

I'm willing to do whatever it takes to win against these guys, but what you're proposing isn't a sound tactical move. Because the stone warriors and the bears are a weaker force that is less effective and possibly unreliable, respectively, we can't afford to put them on the front lines.

Vernydar: By the time they reach us, we will have whittled them down to some extent. We have 75 men with 3 javelins each, which would amount to 225 javelins among them. Our position at the hilltop would favour our spears and the flame jets of our apprentices greatly as well. While it would indeed be impossible to hold back a force of that size for a long period of time, we don't need a long period of time: we only need a few minutes at most. At that point their forces will have been whittled down and our stone warriors and bears can strike at them from either side.

Remember how tough the beastmen were to kill when we initially encountered them? And that was with our fine obsidian weapons, so imagine how much harder they'll be to kill with weaker stone weapons. That's why I'm suggesting we split off the stone warriors to hit the enemies flanks. They're going to be far more likely to do damage there hitting the enemy from behind than they are engaging the enemy with inferior weaponry head-on.

As for the Wielder of Fire, well, he's certainly the most questionable part of the plan. I don't know what he's going to do. But, let's put his fanaticism and his untrustworthiness aside for a moment. We don't know what trouble he'll bring our way in the future, we don't know what he's planning with regards to our tribe, we don't know what his ambitions are. But what we do know... is that he wants to kill some fucking heathens very, very badly. A flank on all sides will give him the opportunity to do just that.

If things work out, and I think they will provided that (a) we whittle down the giant and his retinue enough, (b) our flankers approach quickly and (c) we maintain formation and discipline, this is what will happen: our enemy will be surrounded by us from the outside, while they are cooked alive with fire magic from within. If they're surrounded and packed in tightly, a single fireball/flame stream will kill them off in droves and panic them. I am hoping that this is just the sort of thing that will make them break. I'll grant you that it's a riskier plan given that I don't know what the Wielder of Fire is going to do. But if he follows through with the opportunity we give him (and I think he will) then we can annihilate them without too many casualties.

That being said, I am willing to flop if Curufinwe says that the Wielder can't lob fireballs in an arc. I grant you that I have no idea what kind of crazy shit that the Wielder is liable to do. But what I do know is that if we're going to win this thing, we're going to need his help no matter what. I know that you are even more mistrustful of him than I am, but I just don't see any way we can win this thing without him - we're going to have to trust him regardless, I don't see any other way.

We are outmanned and outgunned, and while cunning tactics and favourable terrain will make it a difficult fight for the beastmen, I believe that the Wielder is the only one who can push a contested battle into a decisive victory.

EDIT: Look at this way, bro, my plan is pretty much almost identical to yours. The only difference is that instead of putting our stone warriors with our obsidian warriors/fire apprentices, we split off the former group and flank them so that they can actually do some damage. That's pretty much the only difference.

Yes, it will make the obsidian warriors more vulnerable, but only momentarily. Once they're flanked from either side, the barbarians will have difficulty overwhelming us. Soon, they'll be packed in like sardines. The apprentices will be able to torch many beastmen at once this way.

And, more importantly, this will set the Wielder up for the perfect shot. I know that this is a leap of faith, but we pretty much need the guy to win anyways, so it's going to be a leap of faith either way.

 

[Curufinwe]

zip

I approve this, sounds reasonable enough.

Esquilax Being a bit of a history geek, I'll point you here and here for some basic info on ancient times' battle formations (phalanx/maniples).

Didn't read the link, but being a bit (as in way too much) of a military history geek myself I can safely say you're not at the phalanx phase of combat organization and sure as hell not at the Roman maniples phase.

 

[Internet]

zip

I approve this, sounds reasonable enough.

Esquilax Being a bit of a history geek, I'll point you here and here for some basic info on ancient times' battle formations (phalanx/maniples).

Didn't read the link, but being a bit (as in way too much) of a military history geek myself I can safely say you're not at the phalanx phase of combat organization and sure as hell not at the Roman maniples phase.

Ah, of course we are still millennia away from it. But since it was mentioned previously and Esquilax showed interest on the matter, I decided to go off-topic a bit.