On the shoulders of giants: a new multiple choices LP!

[Multiple Sarcasm]

I feel like you're throwing lives away

And I believe you overestimate the abilities of 75 warriors to hold the enemy, while discarding the best offensive advantage the hill gives us.
Outflanking takes time - especially, on foot. 75 of our warriors will have to stand still and fight a superior force alone (not expecting the fire wielders to go melee with the beastmen, I hope?), while 25 warriors + 7 bears go on gamble to try to outflank that superior force, with both of the latter losing their height advantage. Besides, this fixation on flanking doesn't take into account that the beastmen force is not front line-centric - they'd have an even easier time fighting on their flanks than uphill. So who's throwing lives away here?
The stone warriors are just as trained as the rest - Curufinwe said so himself. Only their weapons less sharp - which is exactly why they need every advantage they can get on offense. And going face to face with no momentum with a strong melee force gives them none. Flanking is not a magical "+10 to damage" against a force that doesn't care which way it faces, IF we even manage to outflank them at all, considering they're faster than we are.

 

[treave]

Stating the obvious here, but don't bet on the enemy's morale breaking or loss of discipline (there's no discipline to lose) except maybe if we take out the leader. For all intents and purposes, treat them like a horde of bloodthirsted beasts in your planning.

 

[Vernydar]

Esquilax: it's not much a matter of trusting or not. As far as a battle goes, I think he will fight for us, at least. Our plans are pretty similar indeed. I just feel that the Wielder of Fire is an unknown quantity. We do not know what he's capable of. We do not know if he will go ahead with our planning. As such I do not like to rely on him. Any help he throws our way is accapted, I do not believe though that we can be sure he will do as planned.

Multiple Sarcasm: about flanking we can discuss, and you have different ideas. I can understand and respect that, but we're discussing amicably here. I hardly think that: "If that still doesn't make sense to you, then I doubt anything else I say will. Do what you want. " is a constructive way to discuss. Also, you said they will just simply crawl up and rip the lances out of your hands. To which I'll counter by saying, they can do that even more easily if we simply charge them in a disordered fashion down a hill.

 

[Jick Magger]

Stating the obvious here, but don't bet on the enemy's morale breaking or loss of discipline (there's no discipline to lose) except maybe if we take out the leader. For all intents and purposes, treat them like a horde of bloodthirsted beasts in your planning.

The fact that one of them tried to run away when it was became clear that it was outgunned shows that they can break should we put up enough pressure. Killing the Chieftan along with whatever central command structure they have (probably represented by the bigger guys with the bone clubs) will definitely help to spread chaos and confusion through an already disorganized and exhausted (as Curufinwe noted, they'll be going into the fight after marching nonstop all night and charging up a steep hill) mess of ferals.

EDIT - since we're somewhat disorganized in actually deciding and voting on what our overall plan is, I want to make it clear that I'm with Esquilax.

 

[Monty]

It's been mentioned by others but I think a major part of our plan should be to concentrate some fire on their leader if he leads the charge (fairly likely I presume given his physical attributes). At best he is the one providing the controlling force over the beastmen and taking him out would remove this power, but even if not it might affect their charge, morale (if they have any) or even just the damage they can inflict with a giant leading the frontal assault.

Say 5 or 10 javelin throwers and a fire apprentice should be detailed to focus on him, and we can at least ask the wielder to have a go too.

 

[Multiple Sarcasm]

I hardly think that: "If that still doesn't make sense to you, then I doubt anything else I say will. Do what you want. " is a constructive way to discuss.

An acknowledgement that I couldn't see how I could explain any better than I already did and that I had given up on the prospect of trying to sway your opinion is... not amicable? I could seal my every message with a kiss for extra friendliness, but I'm sure someone would take offense to that, too, you know: too long, too much tongue, "hey, that's my message!" - the works...

Also, you said they will just simply crawl up and rip the lances out of your hands. To which I'll counter by saying, they can do that even more easily if we simply charge them in a disordered fashion down a hill.

And I'll counter-counter your counter by saying I've never proposed disorderly charges. Unless I was drunk. Or sober. But if you believe that it's easier for beastmen to evade/disarm the spears of a unit charging downhill than of one standing still, then I really don't have an answer for that. Let's just leave it to Curufinwe to decide who can yank what, since we'll get through this either way, and he probably won't tell us how it would've gone down the other way.

 

[Zwist]

It's been mentioned by others but I think a major part of our plan should be to concentrate some fire on their leader if he leads the charge (fairly likely I presume given his physical attributes). At best he is the one providing the controlling force over the beastmen and taking him out would remove this power, but even if not it might affect their charge, morale (if they have any) or even just the damage they can inflict with a giant leading the frontal assault.

Say 5 or 10 javelin throwers and a fire apprentice should be detailed to focus on him, and we can at least ask the wielder to have a go too.

I agree.

I think we are screwed no matter what if the giant reaches our frontline.
Make it so that he does not.

And let's not ask the wielder anything, he is pissed of enough as it is.

 

[Urist McLurker]

I fully believe that the wielder of fire will fuck us over brutally if it means victory; he'll be of the view that victory at any cost - even if it's a Pyrrhic victory that ruins our tribe - is better than running away or losing. We should keep that into account, he's not going to fuck us over for the sake of it, but if it means victory then I think he'll see it as acceptable losses.


I'm going for Esquilax plan at the moment.

 

[ScubaV]

Overall I agree with Esquilax. However I have a couple of suggestions for additions.

1)If the Wielder is willing, have him concentrate on their leader until he's either dead or about to engage in melee. Once the two forces meet, then hold fire until the flanks are in place and he can fireball their middle.
2)As long as there won't be friendly fire, the apprentices should use fire jets on the leader and his elite troops as priority targets.
3)If there are any fallen trees, heavy logs, or large boulders on the slopes gather them in the few hours before battle (after some much-needed rest). As soon as the beastmen are about a third of the way up the hill, start rolling these objects down the slopes.
4)Also gather a collection of smaller rocks and stones. The 25 men without javelins can throw them with impunity until melee range. Those with javelins can throw them before optimal javelin range and after they've used up their javelins.

 

[Computer Gamer Refugee]

I think I have been following this closely enough that I can summarize the plans and I would like to suggest the following vote. In all cases we wait at the top/steep incline and throw ranged weapons as the beastmen close, and will use available rocks to throw as the beastmen charge.

A) Obsidian, stone warriors, and bear friends form a battle line, but start a counter-charge downhill once the beastmen get close.
B) Obsidian, stone warriors, and bear friends form a battle line and hold it to receive the charge.
C) Obsidian warriors form a battle line, but some other sections flank (choose below)
D) Other (just to see if I missed an option

If there are flanking elements they should be:
1) stone warriors
2) bear friends
3) both
4) both and the fire wielders.


The primary target should be
X) The leader/elite troops
Y) The general troops
Z) The easiest targets


Lastly, if we want to prepare the hill we should
a) create crude spears/traps (very tiring)
b) create bonfires (slightly tiring, but will give less time to rest than option c)
c) rest and prepare

 

[newcomer]

For those favoring counter-charge, do you plan to maintain formation or fight them individually? From what I read, spearmen formations have severe disadvantage on uneven ground, such as HILL. It's true that we don't have shield, but I guess breaking the formation will result in catastrophic defeat.

For the vote, I guess that'll make me C2XC

 

[Computer Gamer Refugee]

Personally, I lean to

C2Xb

 

[Curufinwe]

Ok. Since Computer Gamer Refugee did my work for me this evening, and I agree with the options he wrote, get voting on those.

P.S.: Computer Gamer Refugee, the payment for allowing me to be a lazy fuck this evening is on your Cayman account, as agreed.

 

[Vernydar]

Lazy ass...

C2XC

 

[Esquilax]

C3XC

 

[Cassidy]

C4Xc

 

[Omicron]

C4Xb

 

[Tigranes]

C3Xb

 

[Urist McLurker]

C4Xc

 

[Stygian Lurker]

C3XB

 

[Zwist]

Before I vote let us define how we are going to count the votes: As one single option(as:C4xc) or single elements(as: C,4,x,c)?
C and X seem to be clearly winning, however this could end in a potential clusterfuck as in a clear winner for say element 4 being overridden in the event of all 4 being split between a/b/c, so that the element 3 wins regardless as all voters for 3 were voting the same on a/b/c.
Likewise if we take the single elements we risk that the votes are taken out of context, so that we choose a mixture of options no one would have chosen.

 

[Kz3r0]

AXC

 

[TOME]

C2Xa

I think there should be 2 votes. One for the general strategy and if needed, one for flanking elements.

 

[Urist McLurker]

Zwist

I reckon, or at least dearly hope, that it's taken as a single option; every single time a vote has been given like this that's been done in single elements for these kinds of LPs have proven to turn out horribly.

 

[Esquilax]

I think there should be 2 votes. One for the general strategy and if needed, one for flanking elements.

How about one overall vote encompassing general strategy (including flanking) and another vote for pre-battle prep? It would make more sense IMO. You can't split the flanking from the general strategy because they're intertwined, but the pre-battle preparations are a different story and I think that they can be segregated.