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On the shoulders of giants: a new multiple choices LP!

Curufinwe

Learned
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Apr 7, 2012
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271
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Italy
No problem with time compression, but I feel our population should be quite a bit bigger!

Only excuse I have is that since the update where I mentioned you had an overflow of food, only 50 years or so have passed, maybe less. Most of the time passed in the LP was actually before you went to the mountain. When/if we go back to regular 'several years' updates I'll make the population increase again, don't fear. :oops:
 

kazgar

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Apr 23, 2008
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2,164
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Upside Down
No problem with time compression, but I feel our population should be quite a bit bigger!

Only excuse I have is that since the update where I mentioned you had an overflow of food, only 50 years or so have passed, maybe less. Most of the time passed in the LP was actually before you went to the mountain. When/if we go back to regular 'several years' updates I'll make the population increase again, don't fear. :oops:

option D - copious mass orgies!

Slightly more seriously, A There's a good chance whatever military tech we find may have uses outside of the military.
 

Kipeci

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May 22, 2012
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Vicksburg
I would be all-in for teaching everyone the ability to throw burning deathballs if not for the mind controlling threat.
His magic is of fire, not of the mind. There's no evidence to suggest that anyone is being controlled by him, and besides... A is just an undefined choice of 'finding something else' to use as a weapon until a way back to the obsidian supply is freed up, which shouldn't be all that far off in the future. C is letting us teach as many people as we can fit in his schedule to toss along fireballs. The former option will, unless we have some sort of unprecedented breakthrough, be almost certainly inferior to the obsidian weaponry, while the latter is something that no one else in the world appears to have, and it should be noted that this fire magic has already shown plenty of uses. Imagine if most of our army were trained to fling fireballs!

Besides, as I said before, the opening of fire magic to a greater number of people helps to lessen the sheer difference in power that the Wielder has to the rest of us, along with making any conspiracies among some of them much harder to remain secret. Our important people in particular should learn some fire magic.
 

treave

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Codex 2012
'Something else' to use as a weapon means a different material, and there is zero mention about whether what we find will be better than obsidian or not. Even if it isn't, knowing of an extra source of materials to work with will help greatly with not just weaponry, but every aspect of life from construction to farming. Materials technology is very important; look at bronze, for example. Its not just for making spears and swords and shields. You can use it for pots and boats and a host of other applications.

We already have the fire. Being better at it only makes us more able to toast stuff. Without the proper materials to use it on, the fire alone is pretty much very narrow in its use.

Think bigger. Don't cage yourself in by only considering the military applications.
 

Kipeci

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May 22, 2012
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Materials are important, but it's also generally agreed that we want this society to be more egalitarian, which is kind of hard when there's a small number of people who can lob around flames everywhere. This situation is begging for some sort of caste with lords of fire ruling over everyone else unless we get as many people into the fire knowledge as possible right now, when the Wielder with the most knowledge of it is still alive and up for teaching just about anyone. We have also done little in exploration of fire magic, and have yet to learn all its applications; why should we skip over learning fire magic for a chance that maybe we develop bronze technology?

The ability to produce fire goes beyond merely 'toasting things'. Besides obvious military applications, it's apparent even now that it is useful for clearing land, producing energy, signals, general survival situations, and even impressing others into joining us for their awe of our abilities, as has been demonstrated. We need many of our people to have a knowledge of fire, beyond the couple apprentices that the Wielder has had up to this point. Shoving this all aside for a chance at pursuing bronze or something else just doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
 

treave

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Codex 2012
We already have fire magic, but we have no alternatives to obsidian. This is a choice between putting more points in to the magic tree, or spending those points to open up a new tree. It's about not putting all your eggs in one basket.

We can always teach fire magic to more people in times of emergency, but we can't conjure up new supplies at the drop of a hat. The good thing about magic is that it can do things we usually can't do, and seeing as there is no pressing need to be chasing down the fire magic road, I can't see how it is a good idea to give up advances in other technologies.

The egalitarian society choice should be dealt with when it is a cultural update, not a technological one. Pursuing fire single-mindedly is only going to enhance close-mindedness anyway; in this case we're placing too much emphasis on the fire magic and allowing it to govern the way we act and think. Particularly since the one teaching has been shown to be eager to go behind our backs. There's no need to even talk about mind control; he could easily pass on only low-level fire magic to those not of his circle. He just needs to claim that only those worthy can perform miracles as fervor-filled as his. And there you go, you get a caste system even when everyone has fire magic.

It is impossible and very naive for what you guys are suggesting to happen if only ONE guy has all the secrets, and he's not the sort to give it up.

What I'm saying is, speculating on how magic is going to affect the society is fruitless unless you know the laws of the magic. Where it comes from, how do we use it, what makes someone strong at using it. Best to stick with things whose effect on human society we already know from history, if there's a choice.
 

Kipeci

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We don't have all our eggs in one basket, we have already done some pretty decent developments in more traditional technologies. Aside from the obsidian weapons which we already have, we have a number of stone weapons, javelins, clubs, bear cavalry, and probably some other things. We've barely scratched the surface of fire magic and only have the one Wielder and a handful of his apprentices, and we have no idea how long he will live for. He's already slipped into a coma for unexplained reasons, we can't teach his powerful magic to people in a far off future if he just dies. We'll have to make do with whatever lasts in the minds of his students, which is why it's important to get him to teach as many as possible while he still can.

We shouldn't be so eager to ignore our fire magic that we all jump on stumbling around in hopes of finding a decent material. We haven't been placing too much emphasis on fire magic, we haven't been placing enough on it. We've reluctantly allowed the Wielder to teach a couple of guys, but we could do so much more... and in the long run, giving everyone control over fire magic is going to cripple the fire keeper caste, as their rituals regarding the starting of fires and the like are rendered moot when anyone can toss a fireball. Also, if the Wielder is made to teach as many people fire magic as possible, even if he does give some more teaching in fire to his favorites, 'low-level fire spells' are a hell of a lot better than 'no fire magic' to the rest of society. If it is going to develop into a caste system that way, at least it's not as severe as the alternative.

We don't know from history how this would effect us, since first of all we don't even know what sort of things we would be getting our of the militia leader's suggestion to look for something to replace obsidian. What we do know is that even with an exceedingly small number of fire users, it has already given us powerful benefits both for the military in defeating the barbarians and establishing a sort of peace and in raising our population by getting a tribe awed by those powers to join us. If we just take this time to learn as much as possible for the fire magic before the Wielder kicks the bucket, we have plenty of more time to explore the traditional route of our history while armed with the additional benefit of fire magic. There's no particular pressure that should require us to rush for an even greater advantage in material technology than we already have.
 

treave

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If javelins and clubs are all we have, that's not 'pretty decent'. Furthermore, obsidian and flint are only going to take you so far. I wouldn't say that we aren't in a rush to get a greater advantage in material technology. We don't have one over the barbarian tribes of the forest, at least, if they have iron. The discovery of any metal at all, even copper, would mean a great increase in productivity. It also diversifies the tribe's activities, encourages more exploration, and just increases technology in general.

Sure, we could get some result like "LOL you guys find nothing of use" but if that's the case, option C can easily result in "lol Wielder insists everyone uses only fire, forever" and be just as valid/stupid.

You make a good point about the Wielder not being able to pass on the full extent of his knowledge, but again, we know little to nothing about how the fire magic works. How is it passed on? How do they train in their use of it? Does the Wielder just mutter some mumbo-jumbo and the apprentices get the ability to toss fire around? You don't know how it works, you don't know how it is trained, you don't know its limits. Is there any indication of how powerful fire magic can get? What are its drawbacks? Do you want an entire tribe of warriors who toss fire around and then faint for a couple of days? Can anyone attuned to the gem perform the same feats as the Wielder? Can the apprentices pass on the power? If only the Wielder can, then obviously when he dies there will be no new fire-users so you're just training up a single generation of them.

Way, way too many unanswered questions about the magic. It has proven to be somewhat useful, so far, but honestly, there's nothing that can't be replicated later on if we have the right ingredients and equipment.

By pushing whole-heartedly into fire magic we are putting all of our eggs into one basket. Let the apprentices do their primitive experiments on the gem. The Wielder's probably training more in secret anyway. Fire magic won't be lost, but we should take the chance to open up new avenues of choice whenever we can. Having another option should be beneficial sometime down the road.
 

Vernydar

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Apart from my paranoia against the wielder, there is another very pressing reason NOT to go the fire screaming fanatic way. I will remember you all what curufinwe wrote in the first post.

"Our starting civilization will be very flavorless, a blank slate to be written upon with very open outcomes. In the future, depending on how the society evolves, I will most likely limit the choices depending on what we've become (for example, don't expect a warlike theocracy meeting another group to have the option 'Trade', at least in the beginning)."

Being fanatics would severely limit our choices in many cases. And yes, C gives the wielder even more showtime, and a legal way to train up more fanatics and convert more. No thanks.

In order to reduce the wielder's power we must show the tribesmen we can do without his military might. hence, more weapons. Hence, A
 

oscar

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While we know that numbers, equipment and training are the recipe for success against other humans remember that they are no guarantee against giants, dragons and whatever the hell else Curufinwe throws our way. It's sort of silly to presume that magic and technology need be exclusive. Yeah sure a bolt action rifle has longer range and accuracy than a fireball, a howitzer can fling death a lot further and a heater can keep you just as warm but technology that can replicate even our, very basic and undeveloped, fire magic is a long time away (if ever). This isn't to delve into the many potential non-combat uses for magic as well.

This decision I'm going for the re-establishment of our obsidian, but in future I think we should continue our magic R&D just as we do our military and economy. There's nothing "unscientific" about magic in this world if it actually works.
 

Jick Magger

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I just feel we need to treat the fire magic as any other tool; just one component of the vast machine that is our tribe. Going back to the fire wielder a scant few months after we put him in his place could sent the wrong messages and muck up our technological advancement for the next few decades. Going back to him now will just show him that for all the talk, we'll always come running back to him when we need something. Giving him awhile longer to stew without his powers will demonstrate to the rest of the tribe that for all his high talk and his weird entourage of magic wielders, he's still just some weird asshole and not a god-come-to-earth. We want to treat fire as a tool and not the be-all-end-all religious symbol that the wielder treats it as.

The same will go for any other elemental we come across, just to make it clear.
 

treave

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It's not a matter of exclusivity for me, it's a matter of priorities. The leap from stone to metal is a pretty big (and quantified) step, and we should be doing anything we can to hit that threshold first. We might not get there in one choice, but we should be trying to discover it whenever possible.

Afterwards there'll be plenty of time to look into magic; our fire will be much more useful then too when you are working with metals.
 

oscar

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Mm, if possible we should try and remove any mumbo jumbo and superstition from it and treat it like any other skill. Though, we still don't know enough about how magic works to judge. If it actually requires faith and fanaticism and religious devotion than there is not much we can do to alter that.
 

Kipeci

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May 22, 2012
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If javelins and clubs are all we have, that's not 'pretty decent'. Furthermore, obsidian and flint are only going to take you so far. I wouldn't say that we aren't in a rush to get a greater advantage in material technology. We don't have one over the barbarian tribes of the forest, at least, if they have iron.

I'd say it is pretty decent, since the only time we've encountered any hint of anyone else having better weapons than us would be the one chief of the beastmen with that single iron weapon. None of the peoples of the coasts near us have been described as having any technology like it, and they're currently our only concern as the beastmen have a peace with us. Our own supply of obsidian is likely to open up in the near future once the volcano dies down, and we already have plenty of our superior obsidian weapons lying around even without that supply. There's not a pressing need to play catch-up right now when we can develop a magic we've devoted extremely few of our resources into and that has applications unlike anything we've seen on Earth. Tell me, what does an army clad in bronze have against an army capable of raining fire down on their opponents, anyway? I do want to pursue metals, definitely, I just think that now is a good time to shore up our magical knowledge while the Wielder is still around, as we don't know what could happen to him in the future.

The discovery of any metal at all, even copper, would mean a great increase in productivity. It also diversifies the tribe's activities, encourages more exploration, and just increases technology in general.

It would, the same as would giving everyone the ability to easily manipulate fire on their own. Having fire magic common among the people also makes business with metals easier, as it gives more people the power of fire manipulation to work with metals than just a select number of privileged fire keepers and apprentices of the Wielder.
Sure, we could get some result like "LOL you guys find nothing of use" but if that's the case, option C can easily result in "lol Wielder insists everyone uses only fire, forever" and be just as valid/stupid.

How would this easily result in our innovation being permanently stunted? I see that as being quite a lot less likely than turning up little on a search for some sort of material to temporarily replace obsidian, though I have to say that I don't think Curufinwe would do this for either option. If anything, teaching everyone magic is likely to improve us by imploding the restrictive fire keeper caste that's been building up on us.

You make a good point about the Wielder not being able to pass on the full extent of his knowledge, but again, we know little to nothing about how the fire magic works. How is it passed on? How do they train in their use of it? Does the Wielder just mutter some mumbo-jumbo and the apprentices get the ability to toss fire around? You don't know how it works, you don't know how it is trained, you don't know its limits. Is there any indication of how powerful fire magic can get? What are its drawbacks? Do you want an entire tribe of warriors who toss fire around and then faint for a couple of days? Can anyone attuned to the gem perform the same feats as the Wielder? Can the apprentices pass on the power? If only the Wielder can, then obviously when he dies there will be no new fire-users so you're just training up a single generation of them.

This is probably the best time we have to learn all about these perfectly valid questions given how we now have a peace with the most difficult enemies we've faced and everyone else around us seems rather pathetic. I know you were talking about teaching everyone fire magic in a future crisis; now, if the above statements you've posted above are true, would you like to find out that information beforehand so that we can scrap fire magic and focus on more useful things, or wait until we're in a situation where we're screwed over and then find out these limitations on fire magic?

Way, way too many unanswered questions about the magic. It has proven to be somewhat useful, so far, but honestly, there's nothing that can't be replicated later on if we have the right ingredients and equipment.

I'm sure that inventing the flamethrower and manufacturing enough for everyone in our society could be done on down the line, but it seems much more effective to me to just get everyone to learn how to toss fireballs with the magic we have right now.
By pushing whole-heartedly into fire magic we are putting all of our eggs into one basket.

How is this putting all of our eggs in one basket? We're already ahead of the coastal tribes with our material technologies, we're far enough ahead of the beastmen that we could fight them off and achieve victory, while for magic so far we've only had a very small number of apprentices and the Wielder.

Let the apprentices do their primitive experiments on the gem. The Wielder's probably training more in secret anyway.

See, the thing is, if we don't know which people are fire wielders we're probably not going to get any benefits of fire-wielding out of them unless there's a change that allows them to be open about their skills. If we sign up about everyone for fire magic, then we have the whole group with some amount of fire skills, and we don't force those learning fire magic into hiding. If people are learning fire magic in secret, they're not going to do fire magic anywhere where we could have a benefit, or else the Wielder would get in worse trouble than he already is. The only thing them learning fire magic in secret provides us is the chance that they'll launch a coup against the muggles to take power. Quite honestly I won't blame them, if the best we can do with a man infused with knowledge of amazing fire magic and willing to teach it to anyone is to get him to scrape manure away from a fence.

Fire magic won't be lost, but we should take the chance to open up new avenues of choice whenever we can. Having another option should be beneficial sometime down the road.

Metal is obviously going to be a choice in the future, but fire magic won't be if we're only getting it's master to shovel manure and the scant number of apprentices start up a caste system and jealously protect their knowledge of fire so that their place won't be taken. That's exactly what the fire keepers did after the discovery of fire, and now it's time to correct that mistake.

"Our starting civilization will be very flavorless, a blank slate to be written upon with very open outcomes. In the future, depending on how the society evolves, I will most likely limit the choices depending on what we've become (for example, don't expect a warlike theocracy meeting another group to have the option 'Trade', at least in the beginning)."

Being fanatics would severely limit our choices in many cases. And yes, C gives the wielder even more showtime, and a legal way to train up more fanatics and convert more. No thanks.


... except that everyone learning fire magic would implode the fire keepers, given that their entire existence extends from limiting the people in their ability to create fires. Yes, the fire keeper himself is a bit gung-ho about the glory of conquering for fire, but he's evidently capable of limiting himself where he realizes it would be beneficial (this allowed us to adopt that one coastal tribe, you'll note that they were not just incinerated) and he's been perfectly willing to hold himself back when we decide not to go through with it. For all this talk about how he's going to overthrow us, he's had plenty of opportunities to burn up our council and establish his own rule and he's never done anything despite the humiliations we're giving him. Just let him teach as many people as possible out in the open, it's healthier than forcing the teaching underground.

In order to reduce the wielder's power we must show the tribesmen we can do without his military might. hence, more weapons. Hence, A

Forgive me, but I don't see how making some bronze knives would lessen the amazing power of fire that he holds. If we'll just accept his teachings and embrace the flame a smidge, we'll do so much more.
 

Tigranes

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Yeah, good arguments, but I'm still on C. There are many possible problems, limitations and disappointments with trying to get everyone to learn fire, but we've already seen enough of the potential benefits, military and otherwise, to make it at least as worthwhile a choice as a "Work On Military" option - which, by the way, is only guaranteed any sort of progress because of the structure of this game. The discovery of Obsidian was rather accidental, you remember. Both A and C can go as well as that, or as badly as bears. (Do we have any more bears around, by the way, or tamers? Did they all die in the battle?)

I don't think A is a bad option - a Normal military expanding and growing is another way to prevent a despotic rule by the Wielder or the Fire Keepers. But the main thing for me is that we have a limited amount of time, a window of oopportunity, to learn more about fire use and the gem, so that we can then pacify or get rid of the Wielder quite quickly. Make no mistake, having him shovel dung for even longer isn't going to do anything goodd for chances of insurrection or intrigue. Besides, the wording - ", give back at least his training duties, provided he teaches only to those we decide" - certainly risky, but it's not a full reinstatement.
 

Vernydar

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Yeah, good arguments, but I'm still on C. There are many possible problems, limitations and disappointments with trying to get everyone to learn fire, but we've already seen enough of the potential benefits, military and otherwise, to make it at least as worthwhile a choice as a "Work On Military" option - which, by the way, is only guaranteed any sort of progress because of the structure of this game. The discovery of Obsidian was rather accidental, you remember. Both A and C can go as well as that, or as badly as bears. (Do we have any more bears around, by the way, or tamers? Did they all die in the battle?)

I don't think A is a bad option - a Normal military expanding and growing is another way to prevent a despotic rule by the Wielder or the Fire Keepers. But the main thing for me is that we have a limited amount of time, a window of oopportunity, to learn more about fire use and the gem, so that we can then pacify or get rid of the Wielder quite quickly. Make no mistake, having him shovel dung for even longer isn't going to do anything goodd for chances of insurrection or intrigue. Besides, the wording - ", give back at least his training duties, provided he teaches only to those we decide" - certainly risky, but it's not a full reinstatement.

Tigranes, I do agree with you that fire is useful. What I do not trust is that the wielder will only do as much. He will go behind our backs again, teach to other people again, and encourage fanaticism. He managed to do it once, he will manage to do it again because there are already fanatics in the tribe helping him.

I want magical might, widespread too! I do not trust the wielder though. If I could have magical power without the wielder I'd say yes immediately. But I still think he will try to stage a coup, rather sooner than later, and that giving him ANY more space and authority than he has now would be exceedingly risky.

That is why for now I prefer to go the weapons way. And that is why I wanted to kill him back then, and study fire on our own after getting rid of the gem.
 

treave

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I'd say it is pretty decent, since the only time we've encountered any hint of anyone else having better weapons than us would be the one chief of the beastmen with that single iron weapon. None of the peoples of the coasts near us have been described as having any technology like it, and they're currently our only concern as the beastmen have a peace with us. Our own supply of obsidian is likely to open up in the near future once the volcano dies down, and we already have plenty of our superior obsidian weapons lying around even without that supply.

There's no need to describe it because any hunting community would have access to spears, throwing spears and clubs. We don't even have bows FFS! Obsidian weaponry is superior only in terms of sharpness. It's still quite brittle. Not to debate the merits of sticking to obsidian, but I don't see how resting on our laurels when it comes to materials is going to help us.

There's not a pressing need to play catch-up right now when we can develop a magic we've devoted extremely few of our resources into and that has applications unlike anything we've seen on Earth. Tell me, what does an army clad in bronze have against an army capable of raining fire down on their opponents, anyway?

Depends on how hot the fire is. Right now there doesn't seem to be anything to make me believe that we can output metal-melting flames without assistance.

It would, the same as would giving everyone the ability to easily manipulate fire on their own. Having fire magic common among the people also makes business with metals easier, as it gives more people the power of fire manipulation to work with metals than just a select number of privileged fire keepers and apprentices of the Wielder.

Here's something to note: again, the council will be proposing training certain people that they choose. Basically it's the same deal as with our previous policy of being cautious in training. We are NOT going to just immediately give everyone the gift of flames.

'Since these are quiet times, we should expend our energies in better understanding the powers the Wielder taught us. We could ask him for advice, give back at least his training duties, provided he teaches only to those we decide. It's too important a part of our strength to keep ignoring.'

We're still controlling it, and unless Curufinwe is going to allow us to dictate a change in policy again, your point is just speculation.

This is probably the best time we have to learn all about these perfectly valid questions given how we now have a peace with the most difficult enemies we've faced and everyone else around us seems rather pathetic. I know you were talking about teaching everyone fire magic in a future crisis; now, if the above statements you've posted above are true, would you like to find out that information beforehand so that we can scrap fire magic and focus on more useful things, or wait until we're in a situation where we're screwed over and then find out these limitations on fire magic?

If the trade off means that we have one less source of materials to work with, I'd rather find out fire magic doesn't work all that well in an emergency. After all, if you're falling back solely on magic to bail you out of the emergency, you're pretty much fucked either way. You see, if that sort of information isn't given to us already, I have little faith that our bunch of tribals would be applying the scientific method to find out the answer to those questions.

I'm sure that inventing the flamethrower and manufacturing enough for everyone in our society could be done on down the line, but it seems much more effective to me to just get everyone to learn how to toss fireballs with the magic we have right now.

I see choice C as resuming with our previous policy, not doing a headlong dive into fire land.

How is this putting all of our eggs in one basket? We're already ahead of the coastal tribes with our material technologies, we're far enough ahead of the beastmen that we could fight them off and achieve victory, while for magic so far we've only had a very small number of apprentices and the Wielder.

Because this is a time jump. Unfortunately we don't know how far time is jumping, but you won't be ahead for long. Obsidian is no game breaker against stone. The beastmen are an unknown quantity; all we've done is beat off a group with poor grasp of tactics, but seeing as their elders appear to have a grasp of diplomacy and veiled threats, I think a second bout would fare a bit differently.

See, the thing is, if we don't know which people are fire wielders we're probably not going to get any benefits of fire-wielding out of them unless there's a change that allows them to be open about their skills. If we sign up about everyone for fire magic, then we have the whole group with some amount of fire skills, and we don't force those learning fire magic into hiding.

Again, there's nothing in the choice that states that this will transition us into a fully magic-using society.

If people are learning fire magic in secret, they're not going to do fire magic anywhere where we could have a benefit, or else the Wielder would get in worse trouble than he already is. The only thing them learning fire magic in secret provides us is the chance that they'll launch a coup against the muggles to take power. Quite honestly I won't blame them, if the best we can do with a man infused with knowledge of amazing fire magic and willing to teach it to anyone is to get him to scrape manure away from a fence.

Then let them. And you GET your fire magic that you always wanted anyway. And we've already taken the chance to advance our technological base by then, so we're better off for it.

Metal is obviously going to be a choice in the future, but fire magic won't be if we're only getting it's master to shovel manure and the scant number of apprentices start up a caste system and jealously protect their knowledge of fire so that their place won't be taken. That's exactly what the fire keepers did after the discovery of fire, and now it's time to correct that mistake.

I'm not even betting that we're getting metal off the bat. It'd be the optimum outcome, but any other material advance, or change in way of manufacturing, would still be great and demonstrate more potential for improving our tribe as a whole.
 

treave

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Wait, why don't we have any bows, again? :( Obsidian arrowheads are a much better use of the material. Some guy better figure out how to fletch.
 

Kipeci

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I don't see how resting on our laurels when it comes to materials is going to help us.

I'm not suggesting we never learn how to make use of metals, of course, but it seems to me that getting people to devote some time to learn how to use fireballs is not a waste when our technology is on par with or advanced beyond what our neighbors have in addition to our superior training.
Depends on how hot the fire is. Right now there doesn't seem to be anything to make me believe that we can output metal-melting flames without assistance.
A person fully decked out in bronze armor would still perish or be seriously injured long before we got to the point of melting the metal. They could easily be cooked in their shells. Other armors are outright flammable. If we're lucky, our neighbors go for armor made out of cloth.

Here's something to note: again, the council will be proposing training certain people that they choose. Basically it's the same deal as with our previous policy of being cautious in training. We are NOT going to just immediately give everyone the gift of flames.

I didn't see a reason why we wouldn't immediately lift the restriction, though. It was originally placed so that we were sure no one was going to turn into some sort of insane fire demon once the teachings started, and since that didn't happen, I assumed others would have little problems with lifting the restrictions aside from kneejerk distrust of the Wielder... of course, then the Wielder got kicked out of his teaching role and made to shovel manure so that he could be entirely useless. I would vote for 'doing a headlong dive into fire land,' as you put it. This is my response for every similar remark.

You see, if that sort of information isn't given to us already, I have little faith that our bunch of tribals would be applying the scientific method to find out the answer to those questions.
We grudgingly provided the Wielder with a very tiny number of apprentices and now he is doing no useful work on the teaching. I think it's natural that we shouldn't have all the answers to your questions when we've gone about discouraging learning the fire magic as we have.

Then let them. And you GET your fire magic that you always wanted anyway. And we've already taken the chance to advance our technological base by then, so we're better off for it.

This doesn't make us 'better off for it', that launches us into a destructive civil war killing a potentially large number of our people, damaging our land, and we don't know how reprisals would go against either side. If the tech side wins, what's to stop them from doing what about half of us have been suggesting and just killing off the guys who can throw fireballs around? If they don't eliminate them, there's always going to be a tension that people with supernatural abilities aren't superior to normally powered people. If they do, no fire magic for us.

If fire guys win out, depending on if the Wielder is still around and some other factors, they could just go ahead and establish that caste system and horde their powers to themselves, which is obviously a problem.

but any other material advance, or change in way of manufacturing, would still be great and demonstrate more potential for improving our tribe as a whole.

That's true, but I believe fire magic would be as well, and I'm thinking that there's much more of a time limit on it than the metal issue. Say we search around for some metal and we have an absurd timeskip, the Wielder dies and you have only what knowledge survived in the apprentices. How is that improved? The worst that happens with the other one is that we're a little behind in metal technology, and it's just my opinion that this worst case is acceptable for opening up fire magic to a greater number of our people and more intensive study.

I think A is an okay option, but I'm disappointed that it appears A will win when C seems to be a much superior choice to me.
 

Jick Magger

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Wait, why don't we have any bows, again?
Took humans millions of years to develop bows. Shit's pretty complicated yo, and I wouldn't count on us developing them anytime soon without some kind of divine guidance (i.e. artistic license).
Closest we've got right now are primitive Javelins, and to be fair they've proven to be extremely effective thus far.
 

treave

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Wait, why don't we have any bows, again?
Took humans millions of years to develop bows. Shit's pretty complicated yo, and I wouldn't count on us developing them anytime soon without some kind of divine guidance (i.e. artistic license).
Closest we've got right now are primitive Javelins, and to be fair they've proven to be extremely effective thus far.

Well, the earliest bows still date back to the late Paleolithic era, which is probably the earliest I'd date our current tribe. I mean, we already have clay-working, which is a Neolithic invention if I'm not mistaken. If we're only using very crude stone weapons, with no polishing done, then the timeline is a bit more ancient than I've imagined.
 

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