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TBS Panzer Corps 2

Burning Bridges

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Guys, Panzer Corps was Panzer General with new graphics and Panzer Corps II is Panzer Corps with new graphics.

No doubt that there are morons who pay 60$ for a crisper looking Panzer III but to me the gameplay is pathetic. Even Panzer General had a lot more going on with almost 30 year older technology.
 
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I played the first Panzer Corps and had a mild amount of fun with it. But they milked this cow with tons of DLCs and that's something I don't like. Anyway, part 2 looks not very attractive in my eyes (I prefer 2d) and I'll pass. Open General still is my drug of choice for PG-needs. It's free and has dozens of interesting campaigns in very different historical settings, some of them I never heard of (I especially like the von-Lettow-campaign). Highly recommendable.
 

AdamReith

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
What's the selling point of this to somebody sitting on a copy of Panzer Corps with all the dlc?

How many life times would I need to live for this purchase to be worth it?
 

AdamReith

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
So there's no point to this game's existence in your opinion.

Case solved.

:smug:
 
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Burning Bridges

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Depends on your desire to play any of those 3.

The problem I have with these new games is that while they boast with improved graphics, they don't match Panzer General's graphics that was artisitically almost perfect.

While Panzer Corps was true to the formula, it was a bit of a dilemma I faced when reviewing Panzer Corps. It had merely copied the gameplay and added horribly repetitive ground textures and a green-brown look that I could stand less and less. Quite frankly it was a typical cheap rehash, a less talented person had recreated the artwork in much higher resolution and people sucked it up because the franchise had been dead for 15 years.

And I think that is what PC2 is gonna be too.

This is still a game that was considered simplistic in 1993, I still see the that there are perhaps 20 units on screen in the same arrangement and that the endgame will bog down in completely unrealistic Tiger II on Josef Stalin battles. Nothing more like a glorified puzzle game. If Panzer General had evolved there would be entire countries and a completely free strategic mode.

That annoying 3d fishbowl effect is the cherry on top. It only gives away that they took the latest Unity drek and enabled effects that appeal to children mostly.

Or in a word, they are fucking amateurs.
 

Burning Bridges

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It's also shocking how similar this is to Panzer General III, the game that sealed SSIs fate.

Seems they are not only copying their ideas but also their biggest failures.

 

AdamReith

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
Yeah, it's such a shame because as you alluded to.

Incorporating a more complex campaign abstraction is the next logical evolution. Especially because it would give more purpose to the shittier units in the roster.
 

Burning Bridges

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Tbh the whole franchise seemed more like a coincidence to me.

In every iteration of Panzer General the most fun was Poland, France and then the first rounds of Barbarossa, because you only had very weak units. I have never spoken to anyone who liked the later scenarios where 2 walls of super tanks face each other. It was always a mess.

An evolution did not take place, in spite of Panzer General 2+3, Panzer Corps, and now Panzer Corps II.

There was also Order of Battle which I could not get at all, and you bet there will be Order of Battle II and so on.

There are people who preferred Panzer General 1 and still play it to this day, and keep ancient hardware to be able to.
 

AdamReith

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
Tbh the whole franchise seemed more like a coincidence to me.

In every iteration of Panzer General the most fun was Poland, France and then the first rounds of Barbarossa, because you only had very weak units. I have never spoken to anyone who liked the later scenarios where 2 walls of super tanks face each other. It was always a mess.

An evolution did not take place, in spite of Panzer General 2+3, Panzer Corps, and now Panzer Corps II.

There was also Order of Battle which I could not get at all, and you bet there will be Order of Battle II and so on.

There are people who preferred Panzer General 1 and still play it to this day, and keep ancient hardware to be able to.

Yeah, the gameplay is great. In games like Total War the campaign is just an excuse to generate fun battles, this would benefit from that I think.

But yeah, until then I think this doesn't offer anything worth getting excited over sadly.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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I think Generals worked really well as a series. They kept the formula true, but always mixed it up just enough in different installments, like research, heroes, spells and magical items in FG, or changing range, spotting and air warfare rules in People's. It just burned out together with SSI, they have ridden it to the ground and there was just not enough effort and money near the end.

And the lack of improvements was not a problem for Panzer Corps, it did have some genuine ones that made a lot of sense and were very welcome. Sure, it wasn't "a game like from the nineties, but completely different", but that was absolutely not the point of it and not what the audience expected. The real problems was the fact the the numbers game felt really off, at least in the initial versions, and that despite huge improvements to the dynamics of campaigns (changing objectives, side objectives, defensive missions that were actual defensive missions) the general level of design was very uneven and could go from good to just plain bad between individual scenarios. It was also just plain effing stupid at times, like the soviet campaign where many scenarios just devolved into zounds of germans lemming rushing into a small bunch of protoss russian defenders.

That said, I think they're focusing on wrong things with PC2 and that the game will have some nice, small improvements again, but will overall just feel wrong, exactly like OOB did. Although looking at the videos, at least the animations are not snail paced, so the lesson was learned there.
 

Burning Bridges

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The "numbers" have been different in every time the game has been reprogrammed. For example the RNG in PGForever sometimes makes me scratch my head. And Panzer Corps was a bit different again.

And let's be honest, even in original PG we all raged when the words "rugged defense" came upm, at least until we understood when it happened.

I have seen guys go completely bonkers over PG. One of my mates accused me of somehow rigging the game. When I played the Germans he said my tanks were too hard. When I played the Soviets he complained I got endless equipment. He was mad with rage the whole time we were playing.

In fact his rage was so much fun that me and another friend told him that we had indeed rigged it and he must watch out that we occasionally hit a key. He went completely mad, and refused to play again, then tried again and so on. (Funny thing is that this guy still plays PG to this very day, and hates all the newer installation. I gave him PGForever and he said it was not good)
 

Citizen

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I dislike the 3d look of it, Panzer Corps/Armageddon looked clear and very pretty in a minimalist way, this one doesn't
 
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I played the first Panzer Corps and had a mild amount of fun with it. But they milked this cow with tons of DLCs and that's something I don't like. Anyway, part 2 looks not very attractive in my eyes (I prefer 2d) and I'll pass. Open General still is my drug of choice for PG-needs. It's free and has dozens of interesting campaigns in very different historical settings, some of them I never heard of (I especially like the von-Lettow-campaign). Highly recommendable.
I play open general. Some of them are good, some of the campaigns are incredibly unbalanced though, but its free, and there are endless eras..even made up ones I think.
 
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Tbh the whole franchise seemed more like a coincidence to me.

In every iteration of Panzer General the most fun was Poland, France and then the first rounds of Barbarossa, because you only had very weak units. I have never spoken to anyone who liked the later scenarios where 2 walls of super tanks face each other. It was always a mess.

An evolution did not take place, in spite of Panzer General 2+3, Panzer Corps, and now Panzer Corps II.

There was also Order of Battle which I could not get at all, and you bet there will be Order of Battle II and so on.

There are people who preferred Panzer General 1 and still play it to this day, and keep ancient hardware to be able to.

to me its exactly like AD&D and level progression. High level D&D is mostly shit and boring too. They need to make it more interesting and necessary to drag along your lower end units and barely be able to upgrade them. They need to make it necessary to have towed anti-tank guns, and towed anti-aircraft guns etc..they could easily do this by limiting the number of tracked vehicles or something and forcing you to use towed anti-tank, but they don't, and I am not sure why. Getting self propelled artillery piece should be very hard and something exciting you reach for, not something you can build 7 pieces of and roll all over France and Belgium with.
They should give you some incentive to drag along a panzer I for 6 battles because in the 7th you can add an upgraded tank gun to its hull and it becomes a self propelled tank killer for a low cost thus sparing you some valuable resource points on buying a hull. For a moment it seemed this was how they were going with the game design but then they seemed to have backed off for some reason.

If they did go this way I think it means they concentrate more on the earlier battles of the war, in Africa battles, Greece, Creete, hunagry, romania, or just smaller engagements instead of having you conquer the entire world. Or perhaps at some point instead of you managing small attacks in africa and greece, as the war progresses they have you manage small defenses as the tide turns. But I don't really think you should be able to change the war, only the fate of your little army. The entire war could be going on in the background, but you managing your little kampfgruppe should be the main story and it should not be about winning the whole war...I always hate it when I do well and they ask me to go attack Britain, I always decline. It sucks, because it eventually leads to attacking america and having jets and rockets, and that part of the game blows.

in fact maybe someone should make a game called Panzer leader kampfgruppe or something that would more align the game in the proper scale and direction that I believe it can do a good job of remaining fun for an entire campaign and being challenging and interesting, instead of becoming bloated and ridiculous like you speak about.
 
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The "numbers" have been different in every time the game has been reprogrammed. For example the RNG in PGForever sometimes makes me scratch my head. And Panzer Corps was a bit different again.

And let's be honest, even in original PG we all raged when the words "rugged defense" came upm, at least until we understood when it happened.

I have seen guys go completely bonkers over PG. One of my mates accused me of somehow rigging the game. When I played the Germans he said my tanks were too hard. When I played the Soviets he complained I got endless equipment. He was mad with rage the whole time we were playing.

In fact his rage was so much fun that me and another friend told him that we had indeed rigged it and he must watch out that we occasionally hit a key. He went completely mad, and refused to play again, then tried again and so on. (Funny thing is that this guy still plays PG to this very day, and hates all the newer installation. I gave him PGForever and he said it was not good)
forgot about rugged defense, that was bad ass.
 

rezaf

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They need to make it more interesting and necessary to drag along your lower end units and barely be able to upgrade them. They need to make it necessary to have towed anti-tank guns, and towed anti-aircraft guns etc..they could easily do this by limiting the number of tracked vehicles or something and forcing you to use towed anti-tank, but they don't, and I am not sure why. Getting self propelled artillery piece should be very hard and something exciting you reach for, not something you can build 7 pieces of and roll all over France and Belgium with.
They should give you some incentive to drag along a panzer I for 6 battles because in the 7th you can add an upgraded tank gun to its hull and it becomes a self propelled tank killer for a low cost thus sparing you some valuable resource points on buying a hull. For a moment it seemed this was how they were going with the game design but then they seemed to have backed off for some reason.

This has been a topic for discussion on the official forums since like forever. Probably not different for PG forums.
Because it's, like, quite an obvious thing. But also quite hard or even impossible to pull off.

The game design of PG/PzC is a weird beast to begin with, individual units of Tiger tanks, individual units of AA, the scale of the map, which often varies greatly between scenarios, all that stuff. It's a vast simplification. And it might be impossible to build campains in the way you describe, where all those minor units stay relevant.
You'd have to change so much, it wouldn't be the same kind of game anymore.

Because, when all is said and done, I think we WANT our untouchable supertank unit or maxed out infantry that really kicks some arse and can be called upon for the really tough job. And the only way to counter this for scenario designers is then to put the player into a sort of (mostly offensive, thus inverted) this-is-sparta situation.
In such situations, you can't afford to have sub-par units as a player. Because in order to break through the superbly defended frontlines and capture those 5 objectives by turn 9, you can't afford to tag along stationary tank defense units or even low-tier units in general.

One suggestion I remember was to give units "weights", so you can face 4 low-tier tanks or 1 top-tier one, but if the low-tier ones are essentially worthless, that doesn't really change much.

Since you came up with the AD&D comparison, I think it's best to look at it this way: When your AD&D character is high level, how comes you usually don't fight, say orcs anymore? It looks as if there are no more orcs in the world to begin with, and if there are, it's always orc warlords, high shamans or orc assassins not really comparable to the 5hp counterparts you faced when you were still low level.
Obviously, it would just be pointless and boring for a high level party to chop up 15 orcs and an orc leader that couldn't even touch them.
Are there no more orcs? I'd say, it's just assumed other, lower tier parties deal with them chaff now, whilst you get busy hunting down those demons from the nine hells.
It's an abstraction. And in the same way, 15 Panthers and Tigers in your PG core are an abstraction, the lower level support units are still out there, just "not depicted".
 

Luka-boy

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So the game is out on gog:
https://af.gog.com/game/panzer_corps_2?as=1649904300

Any idea if good? I watched a bit and was interested,but there was some turn counter,and i hate being rushed. So any idea how it works and is it optional?
If it's a deal-breaker for you I'm afraid beating the maps in a certain amount of turns is a staple of Panzer General-style games, since depending on how fast you completed the objectives the campaign branches in different scenarios.

I don't know if it's optional in Panzer Corps 2 but I doubt it very much because it would be as controversial as having turn-based combat in a Baldur's Gate game.
 
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