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Paradox is the best company ever :love:

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I don't consider the amount of time spent before pressing end turn to be a determining metric for whether a game is or isn't turn-based.

Good, because that's not the definition I gave. The defenition I gave was whether you play while the game is in a paused state versus when the game is in an unpaused state.

If I skip my every turn in a turn based game such as HoMM3 or Civ4, and just stare at what the AI does, then by your definition I would be playing

No, you would not be playing. You would be observing.
 

thesecret1

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The defenition I gave was whether you play while the game is in a paused state versus when the game is in an unpaused state.
And the game is paused precisely between the moment your turn start and the moment you press end turn.
No, you would not be playing. You would be observing.
Alright, then let's say I have an ultra-shit toaster, and resolving one turn of civ 4 takes 5 minutes, while it usually only takes me three minutes to make my turn. Game thus spends more time doing turn resolution than time spent me playing. Boom, real-time, according to you, I guess.

Besides, I just noticed that you seem to have a gross misconception with how paradox games work, namely:
you play a Paradox game while the clock is ticking, and not in a paused state the way you play a turn-based game.
You do not. Literally everything you do in, say, EU4, is done in a paused state. The "ticking clock" is just automated "end of turn" that triggers with frequency determined by game speed. What you describe as "playing while the clock is ticking" is just you not needing to take extra time (pausing the game) to input your commands. It is analogous to writing a script that ends your turn every minute in HoMM3 automatically.
 

KazikluBey

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In most real time games, you cannot give instructions in a paused state (if there is any) and unless you tied the game logic to framerate (something that is generally considered to be poor form for many reasons), it is not based just on ticks, but also system clock, meaning it is tied to actual real time.
Paradox games are tied to system clock, just like Starcraft, unless your toaster bottlenecks performance.

It is also quite intellectually dishonest to compare Paradox's implementation with processor ticks, as Paradox games make heavy use of their turn-based nature in their design. When you issue an army move, you get clear information on which day it will arrive (how many turns it will take for the move to be finished), since the distance between the provices is hardcoded in and taken into account.
Starcraft games make heavy use of the turn-based nature in their design. When you issue an army move the game knows exactly which game tick it will arrive (how many turns it will take for the move to finish), since the distance between the points is hardcoded in and taken into account.

This is not real time design, where the amount of time wouldn't be given any such attention ("your character will take 6000 frames to get where you clicked") and where the precise distance between two points wouldn't be given too much thought (would be determined from a given model and character speed).
Starcraft wouldn't be real time if they told you the distance and how long it would take to move between two points, got it.

Another example can be the MTTH system that's used for the majority of the game's events, and which also utilizes turns.
Another example is building/research time required for the majority of production, which is determined by game ticks.

On the technical side, paradox games are very clearly engineered as turn based in order to discretize and simplify virtually all of the game's mechanics. The only difference between it and other turn based games is that pressing end of turn is automatized for you (the frequency determined by the speed settings) and by the game being tailored for very fast simultaneous turn processing.
Just like Starcraft, then. Seriously. The only relevant major differences is the length of the game ticks and the ability to pause.
 

Norfleet

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In most real time games, you cannot give instructions in a paused state (if there is any)
This isn't true at all. In MOST real-time games, it is entirely possible to give orders while paused. Only a few games explicitly forbid this by antics like graying out your screen, the great majority of the games will go ahead and let you give orders.

And in truth, the only thing which actually distinguishes "turn-based" from "real-time" in most games whether or not a human-significant amount of time and activity occurs between updates. It is certainly POSSIBLE to create a game based on JIT updates and event milestones where the game functions in continuous realtime, but most games simply have a stepwise tick function, where action happens so many times per second.

This is also why silliness like "drawing at 120 Hz" is purely a delusion, because unless your game's internal tick rate is actually 120 updates a second, meaning something actually can HAPPEN that results in a different frame, all you're doing is repeatedly and pointlessly redrawing the same frame multiple times. If the game itself only updates 30 times a second, then all you get is 4 identical frames followed by 4 more identical frames because nothing has changed.
 

thesecret1

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Paradox games are tied to system clock, just like Starcraft, unless your toaster bottlenecks performance.
Really? Game logic is tied to system clock? I heavily doubt that, as I do not recall as single instance where any of the mechanics in EU4 (for example) would be tied to real time. I don't have to wait 5 minutes IRL for a cooldown or similar. Hell, the only thing that comes to mind is perhaps game speed, but automatized end turn can hardly be called a game mechanic. Reffer to my earlier post for details.

Starcraft games make heavy use of the turn-based nature in their design. When you issue an army move the game knows exactly which game tick it will arrive (how many turns it will take for the move to finish), since the distance between the points is hardcoded in and taken into account.
I get that you're trying to be cheeky, but you only display your utter retardation. Besides, you are wrong. In real time, there are many different actions you can take at any given time, all of which would require extra ticks to handle. Therefore, the game tick is by no means known. Not that that is relevant to the argument at hand, just thought I'd point out that not only do you seem incapable of understanding the point of the argument, but are also incapable of constructing a vlaid parallel, which is simply sad.

Starcraft wouldn't be real time if they told you the distance and how long it would take to move between two points, got it.
Failure to differentiate between an example and a proof. Okay, I'll try to explain it to you in words you understand: If I say that one of the characteristics of an apple is, for example, that it contains water, it does not mean that anything containing water is an apple.


Another example is building/research time required for the majority of production, which is determined by game ticks.
Research time is a typical example of something that's usually tied to system clock, so as to ensure the time it takes to finish is dependent on real time, not platform performance.


Just like Starcraft, then. Seriously. The only relevant major differences is the length of the game ticks and the ability to pause.
Wrong again. Your entire argument seems to be that EU4 and similar are real time because the turns are short. That's idiotic and, with that definition, StarCraft would indeed be turn-based. Of course, in reality, there are severe design differences between a real time and turn-based game, some of which I've already provided (overall independence on system clock, as it is not necessary, UI information about how many turns certain tasks will take, independence on player reflexes, etc.)


In MOST real-time games, it is entirely possible to give orders while paused.
Oh really? It is impossible in all of FPS, in the vast majority of RTS, you can't do shit in most simulators, racing games are also a no-no, platformers as well...

And in truth, the only thing which actually distinguishes "turn-based" from "real-time" in most games whether or not a human-significant amount of time and activity occurs between updates.
I disagree, as stated above.


because unless your game's internal tick rate is actually 120 updates a second
Not that I'm trying to argue here, but be assured that this is by no means impossible or even unusual. It's why most games have a cap of sorts, that ensured game logic will only "tick" (or rather that should the next update come too quickly, it will be skipped and the tick will do nothing) 60 times per second or similar. Should someone determine that cap to be 120, drawing at 120Hz would make sense (but the cap is usually 60).
 

Old One

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In a turn-based game, one player or side or character takes a turn, then the next payer or side or character takes a turn. It has nothing to do with ticks or tocks or clocks.

I get to act, then you get to act, then I get to act again, just like chess.
 

thesecret1

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In a turn-based game, one player or side or character takes a turn, then the next payer or side or character takes a turn. It has nothing to do with ticks or tocks or clocks.

I get to act, then you get to act, then I get to act again, just like chess.
Turns can be resolved simultaneously. You both plan an action, then your actions get evaluated simultaneously. It is what Paradox uses and it's not that rare to see in other video games.
 

thesecret1

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Paradox doesn't use that though since their games aren't played in turns.
I've already laid down my arguments for why I say they do. Provide some counter-arguments if you wish to prove me wrong, a "no u" wastes everyone's time at no benefit.
 

Wyatt_Derp

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Paradox doesn't use that though since their games aren't played in turns.

I *hits pause button* totally *hits pause button* agree but *hits pause button* you still need to *hits pause button* hit the pause button in order to *hits pause button* manage all the menus and give orders to your *hits pause button* units and icons.
 

mondblut

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Turns can be resolved simultaneously. You both plan an action, then your actions get evaluated simultaneously.

Except that you don't get to interrupt your resolution phase and change your orders on the fly trying to whack that enemy army that is always going to leave the target province a day before your army enters it.

Talk to us again when Paradox games will ONLY allow you to hand out orders at midnight and prevent you from doing anything while the following day is being calculated.
 
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Paradox doesn't use that though since their games aren't played in turns.

I *hits pause button* totally *hits pause button* agree but *hits pause button* you still need to *hits pause button* hit the pause button in order to *hits pause button* manage all the menus and give orders to your *hits pause button* units and icons.

This is true if you're playing on speed 5 (or 4, depending on the game).
 

thesecret1

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Talk to us again when Paradox games will ONLY allow you to hand out orders at midnight and prevent you from doing anything while the following day is being calculated.
Well, in EU4, that's what's happening, innit? You can't do anything between days. You give your orders on day 1, and right after you get day 2. Between those days, army moves get processed, battles go through a tick, event may or may not trigger depending on MTTH and their prerequisites... I'm not really sure what exactly you're trying to argue here, to be honest.
 

Delterius

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Turns can be resolved simultaneously. You both plan an action, then your actions get evaluated simultaneously.

Except that you don't get to interrupt your resolution phase and change your orders on the fly trying to whack that enemy army that is always going to leave the target province a day before your army enters it.

Talk to us again when Paradox games will ONLY allow you to hand out orders at midnight and prevent you from doing anything while the following day is being calculated.
that sounds retarded
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
PDXCON stream:


https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive

(All times are in local Berlin time (CEST))

twitch.tv/ParadoxInteractive

10:00 ANNOUNCEMENT SHOW

11:30 Crusader Kings 3
12:00 Surviving the Aftermath
12:30 Europa Universalis: An Alternate History of the Game
13:00 Cities Skylines City Builder Premier and “Inside the episode” Panel
13:30 War stories - from the frontline of game development
14:30 Planetfall: World Building for the Future
15:00 Romero Games will make you a game you can’t refuse…
15:30 Those Metaling Kids: A Look at BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
16:00 Rome wasn't built in a day
16:30 The World of Darkness
17:00 Bloodlines 2 Development update
17:30 Hearts of Iron IV: News from the Front
18:00 Stellaris: A Signal from the Future
18:30 The High Council of Grand Strategy

twitch.tv/PDXCON

12:30 Surviving the Aftermath Gameplay
14:00 Stellaris: Ark of Asciension Clash
16:30 Age of Wonders: Planetfall
18:00 Prison Architect
19:30 BattleTech: Heavy Metal
 
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SkiNNyBane

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Grab the Codex by the pussy
In most real time games, you cannot give instructions in a paused state (if there is any)
This isn't true at all. In MOST real-time games, it is entirely possible to give orders while paused. Only a few games explicitly forbid this by antics like graying out your screen, the great majority of the games will go ahead and let you give orders.

And in truth, the only thing which actually distinguishes "turn-based" from "real-time" in most games whether or not a human-significant amount of time and activity occurs between updates. It is certainly POSSIBLE to create a game based on JIT updates and event milestones where the game functions in continuous realtime, but most games simply have a stepwise tick function, where action happens so many times per second.

This is also why silliness like "drawing at 120 Hz" is purely a delusion, because unless your game's internal tick rate is actually 120 updates a second, meaning something actually can HAPPEN that results in a different frame, all you're doing is repeatedly and pointlessly redrawing the same frame multiple times. If the game itself only updates 30 times a second, then all you get is 4 identical frames followed by 4 more identical frames because nothing has changed.

120 Hz is for animation smoothness and more clear image when panning the map.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Messages
97,232
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth


(All times are in local Berlin time (CEST))

twitch.tv/ParadoxInteractive
11:00 Masters of Universalis - Europa Universalis IV
14:00 Crusader Kings 2 - Monarch's Journey
15:00 Empire of Sin Gameplay
16:00 Bloodlines 2 - Q & A with the team
17:00 HoI IV - World War PDXCON
 
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Chaosdwarft

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Is Crusader Kings 3 going to be another DLC for Crusader Kings 2?

Well now we know.

I feel like the Paradox I use to support back in EU2, CK1, Vic1, HOI2 is now truly DEAD; just like when Blizzard fused with Activation. It is just sad to see previously great "gem" companies turn into a sort of "abomination". I still feel like youtubers killed the EU franchise for me with their min/max philosophy. I always liked Paradox game for the role-playing aspect, country management and narratives you created in your head or in wonderful AARs. At least the modding scene is healthy and active, in my opinion, compared to other franchises.

Maybe it's just nostalgia talking...:obviously:
 

Wyatt_Derp

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Is Crusader Kings 3 going to be another DLC for Crusader Kings 2?

Well now we know.

I feel like the Paradox I use to support back in EU2, CK1, Vic1, HOI2 is now truly DEAD; just like when Blizzard fused with Activation. It is just sad to see previously great "gem" companies turn into a sort of "abomination". I still feel like youtubers killed the EU franchise for me with their min/max philosophy. I always liked Paradox game for the role-playing aspect, country management and narratives you created in your head or in wonderful AARs. At least the modding scene is healthy and active, in my opinion, compared to other franchises.

Maybe it's just nostalgia talking...:obviously:

To be fair to Paradox, they're not alone. Most strategy game companies that make historical games have steered away from real history or history character larping. Feature creep, DLCs, and certainly political correctness have turned the entire genre into a Saturday morning cartoon show.

There's a few companies that do business with Matrix/Slitherine that stick to the tried and true, but they're becoming more and more obsolete as gamers want to play as dragon lords or transgendered wizards rather than Caesar, Napoleon, or Attila the Hun. Paradox has done away with Deus Vult. I'm sure it's just a matter of time before they do away with the Crusades altogether. Then we can just fantasize that the Muslims and Christians had a thousand years of peace in the Holy Land (and the Pope can fly). Give it a few more years and they'll probably issue a statement saying that they're not going to focus on Europe history any more... due to the overuse of white privilege. Then we can enjoy a 3 game series based on early bronze age African tribes that lived in houses made out of elephant shit and conjured spells to ward off the evil spirits that dried out their watering hole.

MAKE STRATEGY GAMES GREAT AGAIN - it needs to be a hat.
 

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