PART THREE - MMORPG input - Making RTS gameplay fun

[DarkSign]

Ok. You guys are definitely helping me flesh out the parts of the gameplay I was questionable on. Next comes a conversation about RTS/Tychoon type gameplay.

I must admit that I havent done much of this. I LOVED Cossacks! when it came out and played it for 4 months every day for like 3 hours a day, sometimes longer. But no StarCraft no X-Com (I know I know) or WarCraft....nothing but Cossacks.

My problem is I havent played enough RTS & Tychoon games to know how to create them.
I really need to know more than how to build them, but how to make a whole range of activites that would be fun for that person to do constantly.

Let me start with my plans:

1) I was hoping to have merchanting and vice type RTS gameplay via RTS/Tychoon. I should step back and say that Id like it to be a mix of RTS/T and in-depth down on the street play.

For example as a vice merchant, you would be able to sell contraband alcohol, run illegal gambling halls, and sell prostitution and drugs. (Yes I know the ESRB rating is shot). In a tychoon fashion NPCs would frequent your shop and buy from you over time. By changing the fluctuation of prices and goods (different profit and different items) you would get more or less share of the $ in your area.

Additional gameplay would come from needing to bribe local officals and police to stay away or even protect you. You would need to buy guards, protect your facility from attack and expand your territory by doing mini-seiges on other vice outposts.

Extortion of regular businesses would be another way of expanding your territory. Youd either intimidate the shopowner or fight him for control of his business and collect a % of profits.

So that would seem fun right? To create a raider-gangster type empire...amassing money and influence...in both the player-world and NPC world?

Thoughts?

2) Id like to also make a manufacturing RTS track...but Im stumped on how to make it actually FUN.

I suppose you could take resources from the wastes and turn them into city building parts...you could by plans for machinery...you could eventually sell the most parts to NPC buyers as well as player buyers? I dont know...Im stumped. Or more accurately Im uninspired. I need someone who has played these games to help me.

3) On a radically different track...

If I were to make guilds create items on a tech tree progression....what type of gameplay would you use for research...which would progress them down the tech tree?

If that is the case, how would you make sure that the progression down the tech tree balanced a decent length of time for progression....but the dispersal of the new items wouldnt spread to fast?

Once again I call upon you all to burst from your brains innovative and fun gameplay to integrate into a casual and long-term minded MMO structure.

 

[Fez]

What the hell is a "Tychoon"? Do you mean Tycoon? The Tycoon idea has been ground into the dirt by the million and one games in that theme. The ganster elements sound like a few games I've already played. I'd suggest playing more RTS games, playing games is the only way you will see what works. Play them until it hurts you, and then play some more.

Not so sure on the tech tree idea, I'll have a think.

 

[DarkSign]

LOL. Sorry I was tired last night. I meant Tycoon.

In other news, Ive learned of a RTS FPS hybrid called "Savage" - going to warez it if I can to see what its about.

 

[Balor]

Try FPS FPS HL1 mod Natural Selection.
You don't even have to warez it, since it's free.
I'd say it's rather good...
Dunno if better then Savage.

 

[DarkSign]

Ah yeah. I had forgotten about that badboy.

Any ideas regarding my intial post?

 

[Fez]

Play all the RTS games you can on the timeline from the start to the end.

 

[Balor]

1) I was hoping to have merchanting and vice type RTS gameplay via RTS/Tychoon. I should step back and say that Id like it to be a mix of RTS/T and in-depth down on the street play.

For example as a vice merchant, you would be able to sell contraband alcohol, run illegal gambling halls, and sell prostitution and drugs. (Yes I know the ESRB rating is shot). In a tychoon fashion NPCs would frequent your shop and buy from you over time. By changing the fluctuation of prices and goods (different profit and different items) you would get more or less share of the $ in your area.

Additional gameplay would come from needing to bribe local officals and police to stay away or even protect you. You would need to buy guards, protect your facility from attack and expand your territory by doing mini-seiges on other vice outposts.

Extortion of regular businesses would be another way of expanding your territory. Youd either intimidate the shopowner or fight him for control of his business and collect a % of profits.

So that would seem fun right? To create a raider-gangster type empire...amassing money and influence...in both the player-world and NPC world?
Thoughts?

First part is good... really good. When it comes to NPCs. But about PCs... let’s say, you plan to extend ‘protection’ to the PC char.
You said that there will not be permadeath (too bad, but ok). So, threatening the shop owner would be rather pointless... so, the only way would be allowing shops to be burned.
That’s completely different business - “Either you pay ‘fire insurance’, or you’ll gonna have an ‘accident’”. Btw, some obligations should be extended to the ‘extorting side’ as well - like, if you are already ‘protected’ and some other guys come to collect a ‘share of profits’ - you should redirect them to your ‘roof’. (Russian slang word for such people).
It works in Russia, it should work in this game-world.
However, when you, in fact, don’t want to pay your ‘protection fee’, but protect your establishment yourself... Killing hitmans that will be sent to you is pointless - no permadeath, they’ll just rise and come again (lol, reminds me of bad horror movies).
So, automated defense should be good option - since it’ll be guarding your stuff even when you are not here... same goes for hired guards.
Of course, defense can be destroyed or hacked, guards - killed or bribed... but that’s details.

2) Id like to also make a manufacturing RTS track...but Im stumped on how to make it actually FUN.

I suppose you could take resources from the wastes and turn them into city building parts...you could by plans for machinery...you could eventually sell the most parts to NPC buyers as well as player buyers? I dont know...Im stumped. Or more accurately Im uninspired. I need someone who has played these games to help me.

Ok, what kinds of resources? Wreckages from the old cities? So, after you’ll end up with one, you’ll be moving towards the other one?

3) On a radically different track...

If I were to make guilds create items on a tech tree progression....what type of gameplay would you use for research...which would progress them down the tech tree?

If that is the case, how would you make sure that the progression down the tech tree balanced a decent length of time for progression....but the dispersal of the new items wouldnt spread to fast?

Once again I call upon you all to burst from your brains innovative and fun gameplay to integrate into a casual and long-term minded MMO structure.

http://h-world.simugraph.com/pmwiki/pmw ... OfResearch

 

[almondblight]

Remember to play myth, one of the best (and most innovative) RTS games ever.

 

[Balor]

*Scratches head"
Have you just come out of 5-years long hibernation?
It WAS one of the best and most innovating games when it hit the shelves, allright. But now?
What, in particular, it had that can greatly benefit this particular game?
Burning grass, settign traps, etc - it was fun, but as I understand, not "it".

 

[Astromarine]

About " Protection money": In order to be an oppressor there has to be an oppressed. PVP is one thing, I can try escaping, etc, and the only thing I'll lose is a bit of my time rezing or some cash. But basically being told that either I basically bend over and let someone rape me or I lose all the stuff that was my objective for playing (store etc), is too much. Noone will stand for that. No game is THAT fun to make that bearable.

 

[Sovy Kurosei]

Pumping money into research and development is always a safe bet. I guess you could have a scientist archtype that could identify and document artifacts that people pick up out in the wastelands. The effects can be a boost in research in development or developing blueprints for a new weapon or armour.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Savage blows.

 

[Balor]

2 Astromairne:
Why 'raping'? It can be done civilized way. They can even provide you with a turrent to protect your stuff from other bandints ond simple griefers...
Of cource, it can be remotedly reprogrammed to fire at YOU if you will miss your payment, but hey, deal's deal?
Life's tough in the Wastes.
You want an other carebear paradise?

 

[DarkSign]

About " Protection money": In order to be an oppressor there has to be an oppressed. PVP is one thing, I can try escaping, etc, and the only thing I'll lose is a bit of my time rezing or some cash. But basically being told that either I basically bend over and let someone rape me or I lose all the stuff that was my objective for playing (store etc), is too much. Noone will stand for that. No game is THAT fun to make that bearable.

I guess I didnt explain it correctly. While players would have their own businesses, the extortion would be of NPC businesses. Of course there would have to be a lot of them, but the point is that you could take part of their (imagined) profits. See the HOTU games "Crime Fighters" or "Legal Crime".

Now players would run businesses as well...which can be attacked or defended by others. The difference is that with an player-run business it can only be destroyed. Whether it is able to be destroyed anytime and defended by guards OR meet at an arranged time (kind of like a mini-seige or mini gang war) and fight for control.

Thoughts? Ideas?

To continue with my thought process, I was considering throwing out the entire RTS framework as it might be a barrier to entrance for newbies. Then I realized that ShadowBane (which I still enjoy) did the same thing (ranking up weapons builders and fortresses) and no one complained or balked. All Im doing is tieing it to resource ownage, which is something they are trying to implement now. (Pat me on the back I designed this years ago in full :D )

THIS BRINGS US TO A STYLISTIC CHOICE *****

I want this game to be really p-a and cyberpunk (two distinct styles) but I DONT want to go too sci-fi.

When determining the types of buildings to level up I could choose many different styles of damage and resources...

If I go with ballistic, chemical, fire, electric, radiation and plasma damage types...
then there are building choices that go with those.

but are plasma and electric damage types (remember they are in Fallout) too sci-fi? Would the P-A world pan the game as a fake and whine at their implementation?

I do have my own voice and know what I ultimately want to do, but I do see others' perspectives.

Whadda y'all think?

 

[Balor]

Plasma - most definitely. Cause only plasma weapon I know is Rocket-Propelled Flame thrower "Bumblebee". That's because, as I understand, the temperature of the explosion is so high that some matter reaches plasma states. Oh, and same goes for hollow charges.
But actually shooting 'raw' plasma... that's lame, cause it is VERY unstable. That’s like, well, shooting at your enemies with dandelions.
For electrical weapons - hell, why not? I recall that there are such already... at first it shoots out ionizing beam, and then - discharge.
In future (say, with invention of super-conductive batteries and super-capacious capacitors) such a gun can be made rather powerful.
I doubt that it will be as powerful as in Fallout to fry to cinders, but enough to remotely incapacitate, or even kill those weak of heart.
Shooting should be rather slow (same goes for railguns) - since the time needed to charge the capacitors.

 

[Hajo]

If I go with ballistic, chemical, fire, electric, radiation and plasma damage types...
then there are building choices that go with those.

Why do you split fire and plasma damage? Actually the damage comes from the heat both times. The electrical charge of plasma isn't really damaging.

A dense atmosphere like on earth disables most usages of plasma. Plasma cannons suffer from the rapid spreading of the beam. Such things only work well in vacuum (space or planets without atmosphere).

Explosions do damage mostly by shockwave and shards, so it's not really relevant if plasma is involved, I think.

 

[Balor]

Explosions do damage mostly by shockwave and shards, so it's not really relevant if plasma is involved, I think.

Not in case of thermobaric explosions.

 

[Hajo]

Looking up thermobaric I found this:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... lu-118.htm

The description says:

"Functional kill from airblast loads is predicated on the ability to accurately determine the blast environment from an internal detonation. The response of critical equipment cannot be calculated without accurate blast loads."

When I said "shockwave" I meant the effect that they call "airblast"

They don't mention plasma there?

 

[Balor]

Termobaric explosion is not exactly airblast. And it's effect is in shockwave (hence baric), excessive heat and effect of burning-out oxygen.. That's why they are, in fact, most effective when used in closed spaces.
When you see a whole house blown apart because of a gas leak - that was typical termobaric exlosion.

 

[Hajo]

I see. Thank you for the explanation.

But we started this with my question why to split fire and plasma damage. Plasma weapons don't work in dense atmosphere (I think you wrote similar, so I assume we agree), and as we foudn explosions (except thermonuclear) don't create a special plasma damage.

So we could subsum plasma and fire as "thermal" or "heat" damage?

Lack of oxgen is another topic. I think I heard of weapons used in WW2 to burn the oxygen of a rather big area, so the idea doesn't seem to be new.

 

[DarkSign]

Yeah what Ill do is produce plasma weaps from chemical and fire building types....not sure if Im going to have separate types.

Hajo...I read that article on your Wiki (still writing for ya ) where you speak with Nephilim about making research interesting.

Thats exactly what I was discussing above (I think Balor linked it). Have you had any new thoughts on the subject? And ideas for making researching fun and sophisticated?

 

[Hajo]

Thats exactly what I was discussing above (I think Balor linked it). Have you had any new thoughts on the subject? And ideas for making researching fun and sophisticated?

No, unfortunately not
I'm really seriously stuck on that.

Currently I think I should try something very simple, gather some experiences with that and see if it can be axpanded.

 

[Balor]

Just a bit of crazy idea, but how about making it a bit like one in Evil Genius? That was sure fun in sophisticated
Rather humorous, tho, and we don't really need that. but have a look.

 

[DarkSign]

Just a bit of crazy idea, but how about making it a bit like one in Evil Genius? That was sure fun in sophisticated
Rather humorous, tho, and we don't really need that. but have a look.

Get out of my brain! I was just thinking about that. Funny, I didnt FEEL a Russian in my brain.

/scratches head

Anyone have a good torrent site? :D

 

[Balor]

Hey, so, did you manage to play it after all?
Anyway, let me sum my idea of research:
Each item can be studied to get it's schematic (and schematics would be used in manufacture process).
Each schematic (as well as item) should be constructed of different parts. (simplified, I guess, but a set of 5-6 parts (or, better said, modules) for each item would be nice).
Then, different schematics would be put in research computer database, where they'll be:
1. Researched for upgradeability - to see if you can improve the design (for a gun - less jams, shoots faster, etc).
2. Research for new items - first, you set priority - what you'll try to invent. Then combine two or more schematics and see what you'll find, and if there are enough parts in the pool for a new item - you'll get a chance to invent something new, depending on your skill.
If attempt fails, you should be notified that you are at the brink of inventing X - so, you should retry until you are done.
Like, revolver + shotgun = Jackhammer :D.
Some items would require upgraded versions of schematics to be unlocked.
Like, prototype laser pistol -> laser pistol -> advanced laser pistol + 12.7 sniper rifle -> laser rifle.
Different items should require different sciences to be invented or upgraded.
Usual guns - Kinetics, Chemistry.
Laser rifles - Optics.
Rail guns - Electromagnetic fields.