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Commandos-Like Partisans 1941 - real-time tactics in WW2 Russia

Burning Bridges

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Needs a DLC where we can be the Germans and execute partisans.

Seriously partisan war was a totally dirty war. Pretty lame to glorify that.
 

Burning Bridges

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have you even researched the topic? Google what animals you Russians were, back to Napoleonic times. the impaling and mutilation of prisoners in the Revolutionary war etc. Very heroic

It was the Russian civilians and partisans with their old tradition of gauging out eyes and cutting off parts from prisoners that brought the bestiality to the Eastern Front, not the Germans. Although the SS and Gestapo did everything they could to deserve the hatred. The British French or Americans would have shot and hung the partisans just as well. it would have made no difference. Just look what Russia itself does with patriots and partisans if they happen to be fighting against them.
 

Dayyālu

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It was the Russian civilians and partisans with their old tradition of gauging out eyes and cutting off parts from prisoners that brought the bestiality to the Eastern Front, not the Germans.

"It was the civilians, I swear, the civilians"

Re-read what you wrote, carefully

Consider the official orders about how to manage the occupied lands in Eastern Europe and public order in the Eastern Front, or merely compare the German ones with what Italians or Rumenians did (Axis powers in the same way)

Although the SS and Gestapo did everything they could to deserve the hatred.

Those wacky Nazis, all their fault, i swear

The Wehrmacht was clean as a septic tank, supporting the murder, execution and deportation of thousands without problems. When a population supports a Stalinist regime instead of you (Hiwis aside, even if they were quite significant) you should start asking some questions

The British French or Americans would have shot and hung the partisans just as well. it would have made no difference. Just look what Russia itself does with patriots and partisans if they happen to be fighting against them.

Oh, for sure, we only need to see what the Allies did to their colonies or what the Americans did to the Japs, or the Soviets themselves. But whataboutism isn't a proper defense, plus, seriously, the German mismanagement of the entirety of the civilian/occupation side of the Eastern front is astounding

The Soviets did better, and we're talking of a government that deported at once just-liberated populations on the suspicion of collaboration (Caucasus!)



The game reminds me a lot of Silent Storm, even if it looks a tad eurotrash.
 

Burning Bridges

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LOL simply google you idiot. The Germans shot prisoners, but the Russians enjoyed the killing, during Napoleons march, the Great Revolutions AND WW2.

Simply look at the images of impaled Russians, Poles, Ukrainians and Germans and revel in it you sick fuck.

How many people were impaled by German civilians during WW2?

The result 30 million dead Russians and 30 million more they killed themselves by order of Stalin, truly heroic.
 

Dayyālu

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LOL simply google you idiot.


:roll:

I could make fun of you by pointing out that German civilians were more likely to kill themselves than resist meaningfully without direct orders, but that would be disrespectful to the poor fucks that reaped the consequences of the criminal actions of a criminal government.

Why do you feel the need to defend warcrimes? I can't deny what my own people did in Ethiopia, Albania or Yugoslavia. Nor I can't deny what my own partisan movements did, sometimes act of outright savagery. Trying to save face by making up hysterical fairy tales about the Russians being "fundamentally beasts" sounds desperate at best, meaningless repetition of propaganda at worst.

To amuse you, I can even translate Italian documents on the Russian and Ukrainian population. You'd be surprised how collaborative they were when they did not have to deal with a genocide attempt. Again, so little was needed.... we're talking of the Stalin alternative, here. C&C, my man.
 

Burning Bridges

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Why do you feel the need to defend warcrimes?

Are you retarded? I don't defend warcrimes.

I don't hate Russians either, when I pass the Russian soldiers graves and I see flowers blown away, I always put them back.

I wrote partisan warfare is a sick, dirty war, and partisans get shot by any army like stray dogs. And you should know this is the assessment of English and American writers, we are smart enough not to trust the Germans here.

Trying to save face by making up hysterical fairy tales about the Russians being "fundamentally beasts" sounds desperate at best, meaningless repetition of propaganda at worst.

Again not what I wrote, just that any literate person can look up the atrocities perpetrated by russian civilians and army that belong into medieval times, not in the 19th and 20th century.

Here is a picture from a Polish site (NSFW)

PolishOfficerHangedImpaledbyRedArmyOrsha1918pd-285x378.jpg
 
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Space Satan

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have you even researched the topic? Google what animals you Russians were, back to Napoleonic times. the impaling and mutilation of prisoners in the Revolutionary war etc. Very heroic

It was the Russian civilians and partisans with their old tradition of gauging out eyes and cutting off parts from prisoners that brought the bestiality to the Eastern Front, not the Germans. Although the SS and Gestapo did everything they could to deserve the hatred. The British French or Americans would have shot and hung the partisans just as well. it would have made no difference. Just look what Russia itself does with patriots and partisans if they happen to be fighting against them.
I think you are missing the point. Why should we bother with the fates of subhumans that wished to exterminate us? They were defeated and every deed is allowed against them. Every rape of german woman justified.
Cucks like you are disgusting for every nation. You whine about how USA should atone for native american extermination, about how English should bow before Indians for famines and oppression, how Frenech should pay Algeries, Spain should apologize for Netherlands' occupation, how whites should atone for slavery etc.
Because all normal people should take pride in their past, bloody or not.
 

Dayyālu

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I wrote partisan warfare is a sick, dirty war, and partisans get shot by any army like stray dogs. And you should know this is the assessment of English and American writers, we are smart enough not to trust the Germans here.

Partisan activity and popular resistance on the Eastern front was particularly brutal (akin to the one in Yugoslavia) and it was a direct result to the frankly brutal and idiotic policies of the Third Reich. Yes, the entire basis of the war was a genocide and a racial exchange. Yes, that was the point. But I do hope you know that despite orders that were senselessly brutal, the Germans managed to get some collaborators. And this with the "shoot civilians in retaliation at the drop of a hat" "shoot Jews by the hundreds" "planned starvation".

Many countries find themselves to deal with guerrillas: the German approach on the Eastern Front was criminal, brutal, and counterproductive. Even the German approach in Yugoslavia was better, thanks to a far better focus on local actors.

There are quite some examples of guerrilla warfare that showed nuance despite its brutality, both in repression and in execution. Anti-partisan warfare doesn't directly connect to genocide: and the Germans were attempting genocide. I'd add that the particular German approach of random senseless brutality was applied in pretty much all their "less racially hygienic" conquests: even we Italians got the short straw when we got occupied.

"Winning heart and minds" can be something different than a overused platitude.


Again not what I wrote, just that any literate person can look up the atrocities perpetrated by russian civilians and army that belong into medieval times, not in the 19th and 20th century.

camps-57c5c6375f9b5855e5d0b9eb.jpg


Just any literate person can look up the atrocities perpetrated by German civilians and army that belong into medieval times, not in the 19th and 20th century.

Should I excuse the Russians for being poorly-educated barbaric creatures, and what should I do with Germany, that gave so much in word and deed to the whole of Europe? Should not they be even more guilty, not having the justification of a supposed "brutal nature"?

This discussion is however too much GD, and isn't going anywhere. I'll agree to disagree, Burning Bridges.

Because all normal people should take pride in their past, bloody or not.

Pride? Pride should be reserved for worthy things. The amusing tendency of Europeans to paint themselves as the victims and not as perpetrators is indeed a scourge on public discourse (being a victim shuts down discussion and appeals to feelings) but srs, if you want to pride yourself on mass executions, go wild.
 

Commissar Draco

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Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
Its Burning Anus feeling bad about Gaymanistan loosing the war again; aside from all said before that Germany planned and executed war of extermination not only against Jews but also Slavs as well and should be grateful they got only occupied and divided for 45 years there was no clean, pretty or moral war in history of mankind cause real life is not war against Orcs like in LOTR but... Still no reason to hide it or making it onto some kind of hysterical spectacle. Of Course game being made in Putin Russia will be full of Great Patriotic War propaganda and I don't expect to see much of NKVD troops and (((Commissars))) terror against civilians and RKKA soldiers and officers which led to German and Axis troops being greeted with flowers and soldiers surrendering en masse before shitler orders made them to love Uncle Stalin again but its better than this western passive-aggressive and emotional black legending of History. Game looks nice and my only cavet is that its appears to be in RT when TB in planning phase would be much more tactical.
 

Burning Bridges

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Partisan activity and popular resistance on the Eastern front was particularly brutal (akin to the one in Yugoslavia) and it was a direct result to the frankly brutal and idiotic policies of the Third Reich.

The first part is true, the second cannot be true because the same brutality happened during the Russian Revolution and during the March from Moscow. i.e. everyone who invaded Russia was shocked at how barbaric it was in many cases, that makes no justfication for invading, but is nonetheless a fact.

There are quite some examples of guerrilla warfare that showed nuance despite its brutality, both in repression and in execution. Anti-partisan warfare doesn't directly connect to genocide: and the Germans were attempting genocide. I'd add that the particular German approach of random senseless brutality was applied in pretty much all their "less racially hygienic" conquests: even we Italians got the short straw when we got occupied.

Just this to your overall good post.

If you know so much, you must know that the Germans had a big problem. They had a problem that most soldiers would follow orders to do one shooting but that morale collapse and mutiny ensued when there were many shootings. Even Himmler himself fainted when he saw it in person. So for the murdering of Bolsheviks and Jews they turned to the local population and were absolutely shocked about their brutality, zeal and sadism. I'm not talking about Germans here, the German crimes are discussed ad nauseum but the dirtiness of Russian war does not elude anyone who studies the literature, and by far not just WW2. Russians can in fact be lucky that they were invaded because otherwise many of those acts would appear in a very bad light. Civilians feared them like wild animals, not just German civilians but also Poles and Baltics. Not talking about the many nice Russians who shared their rations with German children, I was talking about the many cases of sheer barbarism that unfortunately happened. That's of course also why the Red Army stopped the rapes themselves. The problem was eventually the same as with the Germans, it undermined morale of the "normal" troops.

Defending your home is a good thing but the problem with partisan warfare is there are no rules, and therefore all armies shoot partisans. Partisans consider themselves patriots but too many are criminals. Half the resistance in most countries was basically just organized crime, the only armed force that still operated under occupation. The Germans take the repsonsibility for their war crimes but the barbarism is usually overlooked that leaves you no other choice. Much easier to pull the trigger in a shooting if you have seen many fellow soldiers with their penis in their mouth and the eyes missing, who had already given up themselves.

And btw there were a great many Russians who were just encircled and fought on and I don't even consider them partisans as long as they still wore uniforms - they were just cut off soldiers, I'm talking about soldiers who did not wear uniforms and do not follow any rules, those are considered lawless in all armies and are subsequently shot. Unfortunately there was no law in the East front at all and this makes it even more disgusting. The Germans did not apply the Geneva convention by default and the Russian had not even signed it. The dirtiest most disgusting wars ever, and downright sick to appeal to dumb millenials without telling them the truth.
 

Burning Bridges

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Its Burning Anus feeling bad about Gaymanistan loosing the war again; aside from all said before that Germany planned and executed war of extermination not only against Jews but also Slavs as well and should be grateful they got only occupied and divided for 45 years there was no clean, pretty or moral war in history of mankind cause real life is not war against Orcs like in LOTR but... Still no reason to hide it or making it onto some kind of hysterical spectacle.

You are simple just an idiot. You should know me by now and that this is complete and utter nonsense.

Of Course game being made in Putin Russia will be full of Great Patriotic War propaganda and I don't expect to see much of NKVD troops and (((Commissars))) terror against civilians and RKKA soldiers and officers which led to German and Axis troops being greeted with flowers and soldiers surrendering en masse before shitler orders made them to love Uncle Stalin again but its better than this western passive-aggressive and emotional black legending of History. Game looks nice and my only cavet is that its appears to be in RT when TB in planning phase would be much more tactical.

This is exactly what I write since 14 years. If you write it that is ok, when I write it is "Burning Anus feeling bad about Gaymnistan loosing the war". Only because you are descendant of the great Russian communists. Intellectual bancrupcy in every post about this topic = Commissar Draco.
 

Dayyālu

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Sorry for the late reply, but this requires a tad more thought than the usual shitposting.

The first part is true, the second cannot be true because the same brutality happened during the Russian Revolution and during the March from Moscow. i.e. everyone who invaded Russia was shocked at how barbaric it was in many cases, that makes no justfication for invading, but is nonetheless a fact.

If your point is that there is an anthropological difference between the conduct of Russian civvies&soldiers compared to German ones, again, I disagree and for me it depends mostly on the background of the invaders. Again, I have a wide variety of letters from Italian soldiers, and while some do indeed repeat the propaganda of a subhuman race most of them merely find the russkies/ukies as a poor people of agricultural stock (almost a "brethren race"), and little else. I don't read particular focus on supposed brutality, that's entirely reserved for Germans (particularly during the retreat).

We can of course argue that there's a very specific reasons why the Itas paint the Germans as "evil betrayers" , mostly postwar rationalization and justification, but regarding civilians there isn't a vast majority complaining of "slavic brutality". Balkanites and Africans have far more the image of the bête noire, particularly North Africans.

Cultural stereotyping and propaganda do influence greatly how an invader perceives the other. Stereotypes may be real, but it's also a self-reinforcing cycle. There's of course a little point that should be done on Soviets approaches, though....

If you know so much, you must know that the Germans had a big problem. They had a problem that most soldiers would follow orders to do one shooting but that morale collapse and mutiny ensued when there were many shootings. Even Himmler himself fainted when he saw it in person. So for the murdering of Bolsheviks and Jews they turned to the local population and were absolutely shocked about their brutality, zeal and sadism. I'm not talking about Germans here, the German crimes are discussed ad nauseum but the dirtiness of Russian war does not elude anyone who studies the literature, and by far not just WW2. Russians can in fact be lucky that they were invaded because otherwise many of those acts would appear in a very bad light. Civilians feared them like wild animals, not just German civilians but also Poles and Baltics. Not talking about the many nice Russians who shared their rations with German children, I was talking about the many cases of sheer barbarism that unfortunately happened. That's of course also why the Red Army stopped the rapes themselves. The problem was eventually the same as with the Germans, it undermined morale of the "normal" troops.

A lot of work has been done on the morale and motivation of the common German soldier regarding repression (ain't surprising, there's a Nazi tax even on academic studies!) and probably the most famous are the works of Browning and Goldhagen in the early 90ies (if someone has more up-to-date literature, feel free to correct me). I am quite partial to Browning's theory that peer-pressure and authority can influence even apparently "normal" men to work fairly well in a machine of death: I'd add that lack of punishment and internalized propaganda can even push further. We're talking here about the common man, not the ideological machine or the common criminal. Germans weren't evil by nature, but in a specific situation with approval from authority what you are going to do? We find the same situation during Italian repression in Yugoslavia, where you read letters of soldiers excusing themselves from executions, but in the end you always find someone willing to shoot.

Having auxiliaries bent on sheer barbarism is common to a shitton of sides, though, because in unrestriced warfare you need everything you can and you often get the worst on board: you can thus get the RONA for the Russkies, the Dirlewanger brigade for the Germans and others. Hell, even the Italians (supposedly a "soft" race) got people like the so-called Banda Carità (not widely known because they aren't as flashy as others, but beyond none in brutality).

And this brings me to the conclusion that even Soviet brutality, particularly in partisan warfare, worked on a similar model: you had peer pressure, support from former or soon-to-be-returning authorities and a frankly hysterical propaganda (Stalin himself had to order to cut out some of the genocidal spiel the Soviet propagandists were throwing out). I can't read Russian, but I've found Ivan's War information on the hysterical revenge mood that got whipped into the common Soviet soldier fairly enlightening, and probably it was the same for the common partisan. Add to it the inherent feeling of defending the motherland and you get bloody revenge.

Defending your home is a good thing but the problem with partisan warfare is there are no rules, and therefore all armies shoot partisans. Partisans consider themselves patriots but too many are criminals. Half the resistance in most countries was basically just organized crime, the only armed force that still operated under occupation. The Germans take the repsonsibility for their war crimes but the barbarism is usually overlooked that leaves you no other choice. Much easier to pull the trigger in a shooting if you have seen many fellow soldiers with their penis in their mouth and the eyes missing, who had already given up themselves.

On the entirety of the Eastern front there were precious little rules! We both agree about the presence of outright criminals in the frontlines, but I do disagree about the specificity of a "russian brutality" and even more on the reaction against occupation by the Germans. If in Western Europe German atrocities are usually reactive (common in Italy, where you shot like 10 civvies for every soldier killed) in the SU they were planned by political ideology. And considering the size and the efficiency of the Soviet state, trying to antagonize a population you needed was a supremely retarded thing to do, but after all, the entire was had a racial/political reason. Fucked one way, fucked the other. Hell, the Poles before WW2 had a far better approach to the SU, by focusing on supporting nationalistic urges inside it, pretty much the second most important thing that fucked the Soviets in the late 80ies.

The dirtiest most disgusting wars ever, and downright sick to appeal to dumb millenials without telling them the truth.

Truth is complex and you need a real open mind (or be fairly detached) to approach stuff like this properly. Point is, we're still incredibly butthurt about everything, and paiting yourself as a victim is a great way to simplify public discourse. We do live in a victimhood culture.

But this is just a silly game depicting pseudo-historical events: it's just for fun. Even more, if it's done by Russkies, it could go on Come and See levels and I would not be surprised (nothing wrong with Come and See, but you gotta understand from where it's coming from).

Why the fuck I wrote all of this? Autism, genosse. Autism.

Hey guys, what are you talking about h-

germania_amica.jpg
 
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Burning Bridges

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I can't read Russian

I can.

And you have a lot of opinion for someone who hasn't even mastered the basics of te Russian language.

I feel no motivation to reply if you cite Daniel "Ze Germans are pure Evil" Goldhagen as your source. Why don't you just go fuck yourself. My time is better spent going to the soviet graves here and bring them some flowers.

Just let me say again that I wasn't and never will devalue the partisans. I was just writing there was nothing uplifting at all about partisan warfare. It was a pure necessity and the truth would be revolting and sick.

P.S. and here is a book for you as you are so literate. It explains very well why the war escalated into barbarism before the Germans could even start to put their extermination program into practice, within a few days https://www.amazon.com/War-Without-Garlands-Barbarossa-1941/dp/1885119712
 
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Burning Bridges

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And btw, I want to explicitly thank Serus, Comissar Draco, bonescraper and all the others for the shit they have given me over my last years in the codex, because it helped me move on and become a smarter person.

I was once naive and thought that Slavs are normal people and would eventualy realize when someone wants to be their friend. But slavs are insidious and will never stop until they destroy you. I talked to some woman in the train who was living in the territories which are now Poland and who told me of the shit they did to civilians and I did not understand why she just shook her head when I was still optimistic about the future. She said she would never go there again because of what happened and that it started long before the war, and that it would never go away either. That's also why I never travel to Poland or Russia since 1990, people are just hostile and scheming and you can feel it. There are so many nicer and better countries where they also don't steal everything and laugh you in the face.
 

Dayyālu

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And you have a lot of opinion for someone who hasn't even mastered the basics of te Russian language.

Aw, never been good on languages. English already required an effort and German is even worse. I lack the perks of a DDR education :lol: (nothing wrong, from what I read your teachers were hardasses).


I feel no motivation to reply if you cite Daniel "Ze Germans are pure Evil" Goldhagen as your source. Why don't you just go fuck yourself. My time is better spent going to the soviet graves here and bring them some flowers.

Did you by the way completely ignore that I find Browning's works far more convincing and merely namedropped Goldhagen because he's one of the basics for the subject? Are we having a proper discussion or you get triggered by the mere mention of a guy you don't like?

:lol::lol::lol:

Goldhagen's theory is fairly easy to dismiss, but hey, it's one of 'em.

It explains very well why the war escalated into barbarism before the Germans could even start to put their extermination program into practice, within a few days https://www.amazon.com/War-Without-Garlands-Barbarossa-1941/dp/1885119712

Kershaw is a very good suggestion, I do agree.

Whatever, replying a second time was another mistake.
 

Space Satan

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>Honestly I think slavs deserved to be treated as subhumans becuse they resisted invasions by killing invaders
>I AM BEING CYBER-BULLIED BY SLAVS ON CODEX HOW HIDEOUS HOW AWFUL
RPGCodex was the last place I expected to meet snowflakes but here we are.
 

Burning Bridges

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Did you by the way completely ignore that I find Browning's works far more convincing and merely namedropped Goldhagen because he's one of the basics for the subject? Are we having a proper discussion or you get triggered by the mere mention of a guy you don't like?

:lol::lol::lol:

Goldhagen's theory is fairly easy to dismiss, but hey, it's one of 'em.

Goldhagen's theory is shit

but you can send SpaceSatan a copy, I am sure he will devour it, in between jerking off to rape fantasies.
 

Burning Bridges

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All is good, I just have my position, they have theirs.
 

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