Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Testownia]

I have a question about the resolution to "Troll Troubles" -

Spoiler

can you get both Hargulka and Tartuk as vassals?

Spoiler

No. You can only convince one of them after the other dies.

Spoiler

Pretty sure you can get them both if you're Chaotic. Or at least Harg as vassal and Tart as (late) ally.

So which one of you is right?

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I have a question about the resolution to "Troll Troubles" -

Spoiler

can you get both Hargulka and Tartuk as vassals?

Spoiler

No. You can only convince one of them after the other dies.

Spoiler

Pretty sure you can get them both if you're Chaotic. Or at least Harg as vassal and Tart as (late) ally.

So which one of you is right?

Desiderius is always right.

Edit: Desiderius is not always right (according to Desiderius).

 

[Xamenos]

I have a question about the resolution to "Troll Troubles" -

Spoiler

can you get both Hargulka and Tartuk as vassals?

Spoiler

No. You can only convince one of them after the other dies.

Spoiler

Pretty sure you can get them both if you're Chaotic. Or at least Harg as vassal and Tart as (late) ally.

Spoiler

I think you need to be chaotic to get one of them, but this doesn't let you get both.

 

[Desiderius]

Spoiler

Can only get or or the other as a vassal, but think you can still spare tart then he shows up at end. May be confusing multiple playthroughs.

 

[Xamenos]

Spoiler

Can only get or or the other as a vassal, but think you can still spare tart then he shows up at end. May be confusing multiple playthroughs.

Spoiler

Yeah, you're probably mixing playthroughs. You only get a choice after one's dead, and the choices are "kill the other too", "let him go (Tartuk returns to help at the end, Hargulka fucks off forever)" or "Requires Chaotic: make him vassal"

 

[KateMicucci]

When's the last time this game went on sale and how big was the discount?

I want to wear heavy armor and also cast spells and sometimes stab people. What are my options?

Am I going to be gimped if I play with less than a full party? Cuz I hate juggling that many characters.

I don't know pathfinder rules. Any major difference from nwn2/icewind dale 2 I should know? Any of the new classes cool enough to be worth a look?

 

[Xamenos]

When's the last time this game went on sale and how big was the discount?

Christmas, I think. https://isthereanydeal.com/

I want to wear heavy armor and also cast spells and sometimes stab people. What are my options?

Magus is a hybrid fighter/wizard (or sorcerer) that can cast spels, stab people and wear light armor at L1. He can wear heavy armor at L13. Alternatively you could become some sort of Eldritch Knight, but I recommend just picking Magus.

Am I going to be gimped if I play with less than a full party? Cuz I hate juggling that many characters.

The game is designed for a full party, but can and has been soloed.

I don't know pathfinder rules. Any major difference from nwn2/icewind dale 2 I should know?

NWN2 was modified 3.0 rules. Pathfinder is 3.75. The core mechanics are the same, but some details differ. Some new spells, some spells work differently (former instant death spells like Finger of Death now deal 10 damage per caster level, for instance), skill ranks work somewhat differently (You spend 1 point to increase all skills by 1 rank. Class skills get a +3 bonus as long as you have at least 1 rank in them. Many skills have been consolidated or been taken out entierly). Most important is that all classes got new goodies, and there are a lot more of them. There are very few prestige classes and a single-class character is usually superior to a multiclass monstrosity unless you know what you're doing when planning your build.

Any of the new classes cool enough to be worth a look?

There are so many that it's impossible to answer without more information on what you like. The aforementioned Magus is extremely strong.

 

[Yosharian]

When's the last time this game went on sale and how big was the discount?

I want to wear heavy armor and also cast spells and sometimes stab people. What are my options?

Am I going to be gimped if I play with less than a full party? Cuz I hate juggling that many characters.

I don't know pathfinder rules. Any major difference from nwn2/icewind dale 2 I should know? Any of the new classes cool enough to be worth a look?

What if you were to discover that heavy armour is actually really weak in this game and that the best choice is bracers of armour + a monk dip

 

[Yosharian]

Yeah I figured that would be your response.

Your options if you want to wear heavy armour are Magus/Eldritch Scion or Cleric, Magus is a 2/3 spellcaster with a limited arcane spell list and combat abilities, Cleric is a Divine spellcaster with some powerful offensive spells and one of the best support/buff spell selections in the game. Cleric also has very strong healing in the form of Channel Energy.

 

[KateMicucci]

What if you were to discover that heavy armour is actually really weak in this game and that the best choice is bracers of armour + a monk dip

It would not surprise me with D&D's unintuitive, frankenstein system. I made a small monk dip party for IWD2 a few months (years... wew) ago that was pretty much unhittable.

I dislike that the D&D system inherently puts simulationist and gamist concerns at odds and it feels like "cheating" to make an optimal character build. Before playing D&D type games I'm always doing hours of research to figure out all the options for an optimal build. And then it's not even what I want to play.

Yes I want to be strong. But I also want to do it while being Sauron, trudging across the battlefield in heavy armor while flinging spells around and sometimes hitting people with a mace. I don't want to be Fr. Jackie Chan.

I've never had to spend more than a few minutes of thought to create the character I want using SPECIAL, and then never felt like my character was built "wrong" afterwards, unless some perk had weird prereqs.

 

[Desiderius]

Then you’ll enjoy Pathfinder.

 

[Yosharian]

Yeah Pathfinder has some severe balance issues to put it lightly, Kingmaker itself causes a lot of problems with its itemization though.

 

[Xamenos]

It would not surprise me with D&D's unintuitive, frankenstein system. I made a small monk dip party for IWD2 a few months (years... wew) ago that was pretty much unhittable.

Yes, that is precisely what Pathfinder changed over Wizards' 3rd edition by giving new features to all classes. My Valerie was unhittable by anything in the game as a simple Fighter 10 / Stalwart Defender 10. Regongar, a pure Magus 20, was equally if not more survivable by having self-buffs like Mirror Image. There are a lot of people who will tell you that dipping this or that is mandatory, but they are invariably wrong. The game can easily be finished in the highest difficulties by a single-class party. Buffs and tactics are far more important to your success than dipping levels left and right. And it is extremely easy to lose important features of your main class if you're hellbent on autistically maximizing specific numbers without context.

There is just one thing that requires heavy planning, and that's feat chains. They are more involved now, especially for melee chars.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Regongar, a pure Magus 20, was equally if not more survivable by having self-buffs like Mirror Image.

What does Regongar gain by staying pure Magus instead of an InEffectual Dragon Disciple dip? His next weapon buff after very strong ghost/energy depends on the alignment, and for a Chaotic Evil character in this game is useless. So why not dip?

 

[Desiderius]

Regongar, a pure Magus 20, was equally if not more survivable by having self-buffs like Mirror Image.

What does Regongar gain by staying pure Magus instead of an InEffectual Dragon Disciple dip? His next weapon buff after very strong ghost/energy depends on the alignment, and for a Chaotic Evil character in this game is useless. So why not dip?

Energy doesn't end up being that good because it doesn't work against Natural Armor. I really don't get why people are so close minded - you can read the sheet as easily as I can - it's an embarrassment of riches. Why in the world would you want to lose out on all the new abilities + the scaling of your existing abilities for a couple STR and CON? A Bite? If he's getting Full Attacks he's already destroying.

Make a sheet.

On one side put what you get for staying Scion, on another going DD. It's just not close when you got 36 STR already or someshit from items and skills.

 

[Xamenos]

Regongar, a pure Magus 20, was equally if not more survivable by having self-buffs like Mirror Image.

What does Regongar gain by staying pure Magus instead of an InEffectual Dragon Disciple dip? His next weapon buff after very strong ghost/energy depends on the alignment, and for a Chaotic Evil character in this game is useless. So why not dip?

A) Dragon Disciple is a Prestige Class. It may be an arbitrary distinction, but I don't consider them to be the same class of InEffectual dips as, say, a monk or vivisectionist.
B) To answer what he gains by staying pure Magus, we need to look at opportunity costs and compare the two, like Desiderius says. I assume you're talking about the standard Magus 16/DD 4.
In that case, the Dragon Disciple 4 gains, compared to a Magus 20: +4 Strength. +2 Natural Armor. And that's pretty much it.
He loses the following Magus 17-20 class features: 1 spellcaster level, with all associated benefits. 6 known spells of any level. +1 Bonus he can spend on enhancing his Arcane Weapon. 1 Bonus feat. 1 Magus Arcana. The ability to ignore concentration checks at L20 (and an earlier +2). A +2 bonus he can put to his DCs, his Spell Penetration or his Attack rolls.

Is it worth it? I'd say most definitely not.

 

[Yosharian]

My Valerie was unhittable by anything in the game as a simple Fighter 10 / Stalwart Defender 10.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

To provide a counter-point, dips can make sense for melee characters acquiring abilities that scale purely on attribute score. Infamous Paladin & Monk dips are the prime examples. The value of those dips are only enabled by the bloated stat-stick items abundant in KM. The loss of capstone abilities isn't felt, due to most players never even approaching the level cap. That being said, most classes will not net benefit. Caveat emptor.

 

[Desiderius]

Big Boss in the cave has his own chink in the armor

Spoiler

On the one hand he's a Construct so not getting that sweet Crusader's Edge +2/+2d6 we do vs Demons, but 7 Fortitude and no Spell Resistance looking awfully enticing. The Claw is the loot he drops.

Got there on the debuffs and... he didn't live long enough for it to matter.

Highly recommend critting all boss alphas with this thing. Look at that Touch of Good sneaking in there from Sosiel.

The official bosses of the Cave are probably these three Vrocks who can give you some trouble if you let them. Living Ram armor on Infinitron Prones on Charge with Reflex Save 17 (that's the arrow, then Seelah starts Outflank crit chain (she's using a Scimitar with 18-20 crit range). The other two took a little longer since they got their Mirror Images off and I forgot I had the ability to Dispel them (Force Reality).

So Shield Bash currently sux, but on the other hand it triggers (with Crusader's Edge) on Charges, so that almost makes up for it. Bludgeoning also comes in handy here and there. The existence of Crusader's edge makes all melee much stronger than usual.

These guys are no joke if you let them hang around. That's a legit Save and Stun leaves you helpless to attacks. Spores keeps ticking while you're working through their Images or waiting out a Screech.

Seelah was not messing around this fight. I've been leaving the Shieldbearers (Infinitron and Seelah) unEnlarged to help their AC and of course less damage Sword and Shield compared to two-handed, but they've been holding their own.

Might be a good idea to keep a Wand of Bless handy around these guys. They pop up fairly often.

Wolj Favorite: Spicy Pastry. Good idea to keep these in mind because they stack with everything. Trying to figure out a Mobility specialist keep in mind that he can get 5 higher than anyone else can. Makes him a good candidate for a Mount someday.

My army has just brokenthrough the choke point following the Swarm Queen. After this headed north and cleared out the four northeast locations to jump start economy. The one to the West trigger Garg Ambush so I recommend heading East first.

When you're not you're hot. Been working on Seelah's Use Magic Device. Now is the time to put it to use.

Daeran's quest is easiest ever. Tell some kid something he doesn't want to hear and piss him off. Done and done!

Deadfire added in a Woedica advisor, Owlcat a random Kobold.

Let's call it a tie.

 

[LannTheStupid]

See, Desiderius , how the questions should be answered? I bet you would have only 30% of your current discussions if you had answered like this.

Regarding energy: barbarians - Armag chapter - wear armor. People in Pitax wear armor. Even some enemies in Tenebrous Depths wear armor, though they are admittedly rare. So this buff is more potent than an ability against good enemies which are none or lawful which are few.

Xamenos thank you very much. I will think about that. The problem is my Regongar mostly casts buffs and then goes melee, so the opportunity cost should be weghed more carefully. IMHO.

 

[Desiderius]

To provide a counter-point, dips can make sense for melee characters acquiring abilities that scale purely on attribute score. Infamous Paladin & Monk dips are the prime examples. The value of those dips are only enabled by the bloated stat-stick items abundant in KM. The loss of capstone abilities isn't felt, due to most players never even approaching the level cap. That being said, most classes will not net benefit. Caveat emptor.

You only lose your capstone at lvl 20, every other level you're missing your best level as well, all for a stat boost you've already admitted is easy to get without the splash.

There are in fact splashes (or more often chunks, like Rogue 4) that make some sense if they add needed functionality/versatility by providing something essential to the way you've visualized playing the character that the main class doesn't offer.

Stat splashes don't.

 

[Parabalus]

Regongar, a pure Magus 20, was equally if not more survivable by having self-buffs like Mirror Image.

What does Regongar gain by staying pure Magus instead of an InEffectual Dragon Disciple dip? His next weapon buff after very strong ghost/energy depends on the alignment, and for a Chaotic Evil character in this game is useless. So why not dip?

A) Dragon Disciple is a Prestige Class. It may be an arbitrary distinction, but I don't consider them to be the same class of InEffectual dips as, say, a monk or vivisectionist.
B) To answer what he gains by staying pure Magus, we need to look at opportunity costs and compare the two, like Desiderius says. I assume you're talking about the standard Magus 16/DD 4.
In that case, the Dragon Disciple 4 gains, compared to a Magus 20: +4 Strength. +2 Natural Armor. And that's pretty much it.
He loses the following Magus 17-20 class features: 1 spellcaster level, with all associated benefits. 6 known spells of any level. +1 Bonus he can spend on enhancing his Arcane Weapon. 1 Bonus feat. 1 Magus Arcana. The ability to ignore concentration checks at L20 (and an earlier +2). A +2 bonus he can put to his DCs, his Spell Penetration or his Attack rolls.

Is it worth it? I'd say most definitely not.

But compare a SS19/M1 vs SS20.

The former has noticeably higher AC for the majority of the game, the only payoff for the later is with the crit multi at lvl 20, which comes very late unless you use active skills, but if you abuse that you might as well also retrain.

Stat splashes don't.

In Rego's case the splash helps with kingdom management which is invaluable.

 

[Desiderius]

See, Desiderius , how the questions should be answered? I bet you would have only 30% of your current discussions if you had answered like this.

Yes, but you'd be better off if you'd get off your fat Slavic ass and figure it out for yourself but you're afraid to be wrong. The process of figuring it out is what is fun and what makes you a better player since there's similar tradeoffs to be judged all the time.

Xam's analysis only holds if DD4 are your last four levels. By that time stats are a drop in the bucket. If you take them up front where those stats look so good you're playing the whole game without your best four Magus levels.

And so we've seen the steady stream of Regongar sux! from the meme for fallers.

 

[Desiderius]

Nigga plz. Reg already owns in KM. Again. A splash doesn't just cost you the capstone. Go through all the ridiculous abilities, then understand that every fight in the level you would normally gain that ability it isn't there. All to make things a little easier the first couple levels. Saint has AC coming out the ears. The only reason you'd need that extra boost early is for soloing. If not use your team and tactics until you start dominating. You're DEX based and have Mirror Image, Shield, and Infinite Initiative. What need have you of AC anyway?

 

[Parabalus]

Nigga plz. Reg already owns in KM. Again. A splash doesn't just cost you the capstone. Go through all the ridiculous abilities, then understand that every fight in the level you would normally gain that ability it isn't there. All to make things a little easier the first couple levels. Saint has AC coming out the ears. The only reason you'd need that extra boost early is for soloing. If not use your team and tactics until you start dominating. You're DEX based and have Mirror Image, Shield, and Infinite Initiative. What need have you of AC anyway?

Or so that you get max AC with less buffs, meaning you have less strict reqs on party members and can choose them for story/flavour instead of the needed AC buffs they give.

Saints are STR based.