Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Desiderius]

You can go STR or DEX. The problem with Monk splash on Saint is that you're neither CHR or WIS based. It's just bad and people fell for the meme.

 

[Parabalus]

You can go STR or DEX. The problem with Monk splash on Saint is that you're neither CHR or WIS based. It's just bad and people fell for the meme.

It's more that the LG robes are retarded, you get a +8 wizard hat early which you would wear regardless and crane works with spell combat.

 

[Efe]

people fall for it cos you drown in + stat in kingmaker, makes them think its a good investment

 

[Yosharian]

people fall for it cos you drown in + stat in kingmaker, makes them think its a good investment

Prove, mathematically, that it's a bad investment.

 

[Xamenos]

Yes, but you'd be better off if you'd get off your fat Slavic ass and figure it out for yourself but you're afraid to be wrong. The process of figuring it out is what is fun and what makes you a better player since there's similar tradeoffs to be judged all the time.

Many people can't figure out the correct way to do things if you throw them off the deep end with vague instructions. It's much better if they are first shown a working example. And I rather enjoy teaching those who are willing to learn.

Xam's analysis only holds if DD4 are your last four levels. By that time stats are a drop in the bucket. If you take them up front where those stats look so good you're playing the whole game without your best four Magus levels.

True, I compared the two only at L20. A full analysis would be to compare them at every single level. Lann can do it on his own, if he wants, but it won't really change the outcome. A Magus X/DD 4 will always only gain +4 Strength and +2 Natural armor, and lose all class features of the 4 highest levels he's at. If it's not worth the tradeoff at L20 it probably won't be worth it earlier either.

And it is extremely easy to lose important features of your main class if you're hellbent on autistically maximizing specific numbers without context.

The former has noticeably higher AC for the majority of the game, the only payoff for the later is with the crit multi at lvl 20, which comes very late unless you use active skills, but if you abuse that you might as well also retrain.

Prove, mathematically, that it's a bad investment.

I love it when I'm immediately proven right. Can you fine folks tell me why you are so hellbent on autistically maximizing AC when it costs you, say, access to Mirror Image a full level later and fewer casts of it for a long time. Need I remind you Mirror Image is the single biggest increase in a character's survivability available in the system? And that's just a single spell delayed by the monk dip!

 

[Parabalus]

Yes, but you'd be better off if you'd get off your fat Slavic ass and figure it out for yourself but you're afraid to be wrong. The process of figuring it out is what is fun and what makes you a better player since there's similar tradeoffs to be judged all the time.

Many people can't figure out the correct way to do things if you throw them off the deep end with vague instructions. It's much better if they are first shown a working example. And I rather enjoy teaching those who are willing to learn.

Xam's analysis only holds if DD4 are your last four levels. By that time stats are a drop in the bucket. If you take them up front where those stats look so good you're playing the whole game without your best four Magus levels.

True, I compared the two only at L20. A full analysis would be to compare them at every single level. Lann can do it on his own, if he wants, but it won't really change the outcome. A Magus X/DD 4 will always only gain +4 Strength and +2 Natural armor, and lose all class features of the 4 highest levels he's at. If it's not worth the tradeoff at L20 it probably won't be worth it earlier either.

And it is extremely easy to lose important features of your main class if you're hellbent on autistically maximizing specific numbers without context.

The former has noticeably higher AC for the majority of the game, the only payoff for the later is with the crit multi at lvl 20, which comes very late unless you use active skills, but if you abuse that you might as well also retrain.

Prove, mathematically, that it's a bad investment.

I love it when I'm immediately proven right. Can you fine folks tell me why you are so hellbent on autistically maximizing AC when it costs you, say, access to Mirror Image a full level later and fewer casts of it for a long time. Need I remind you Mirror Image is the single biggest increase in a character's survivability available in the system? And that's just a single spell delayed by the monk dip!

You can just take it later you know, not at lvl 1-2. There's a pretty big hole in the mid levels where nothing really important comes up.

 

[Axioms]

As someone who really wants to play a game with wild multiclassing as a highly viable strategy, Pathfinder is not the system to do it in. At best you might autistically maximize a full skill monkey but it is probably more effective to just split skills over characters anyways.

 

[The_Mask]

The problem is my Regongar mostly casts buffs and then goes melee, so the opportunity cost should be weghed more carefully. IMHO.

Regongar should generally be enlarged (no pun intended), because it gives his touch attacks reach, and therefore less need for a concentration check. He also works perfectly fine as a half-orc because of the temporary hit points he can get once he dips below 0 (if that ever happens - shouldn't, if you play your cards right)

Pure Magus Regongar is a terrible beast.

 

[Yosharian]

Prove, mathematically, that it's a bad investment.

I love it when I'm immediately proven right. Can you fine folks tell me why you are so hellbent on autistically maximizing AC when it costs you, say, access to Mirror Image a full level later and fewer casts of it for a long time. Need I remind you Mirror Image is the single biggest increase in a character's survivability available in the system? And that's just a single spell delayed by the monk dip!

Alright, so delay it until after you get access to Mirror Image.

 

[Desiderius]

people fall for it cos you drown in + stat in kingmaker, makes them think its a good investment

Prove, mathematically, that it's a bad investment.

Prove, mathematically, that it’s a good investment.

 

[Xamenos]

You can just take it later you know, not at lvl 1-2. There's a pretty big hole in the mid levels where nothing really important comes up.

Alright, so delay it until after you get access to Mirror Image.

Alright then. Shall we delay getting Haste/Displacement/Vampiric? Stoneskin/Imp. Invis.? Should we wait for L19, when we only lose the capstone? Why would you even want the monk dip this late, after you already have access to all those things?

 

[Parabalus]

You can just take it later you know, not at lvl 1-2. There's a pretty big hole in the mid levels where nothing really important comes up.

Alright, so delay it until after you get access to Mirror Image.

Alright then. Shall we delay getting Haste/Displacement/Vampiric? Stoneskin/Imp. Invis.? Should we wait for L19, when we only lose the capstone? Why would you even want the monk dip this late, after you already have access to all those things?

MI is a unique buff you can't get from your party, while you have plenty of Extend hastebots. If you want to dip doing it after getting MI is pretty good.

Capstone is only relevant at HaEoT unless you abuse skill check XP, but then you might as well retrain for it.

 

[Xamenos]

Or so that you get max AC with less buffs, meaning you have less strict reqs on party members and can choose them for story/flavour instead of the needed AC buffs they give.

MI is a unique buff you can't get from your party, while you have plenty of Extend hastebots. If you want to dip doing it after getting MI is pretty good.

 

[Desiderius]

I wasn’t vague. Go through the character sheet. Look at every level. Imagine the different challenges you face at that level. Then ask yourself whether you want the conditional AC (fighting defensively is not costless and Saint doesn’t get Uncanny Dodge) or the new ability you get at that level (plus an uptick on all the scaling abilities and spells - especially slots since you’re a diminished caster) in the context of those challenges.

Unless you’re cheesing the Wizard Hat then stupidly putting it on a man who attacks for a living instead of one who beats saves where it belongs it’s not even close. I don’t think it’s close even at infinite AC.

 

[Yosharian]

You can just take it later you know, not at lvl 1-2. There's a pretty big hole in the mid levels where nothing really important comes up.

Alright, so delay it until after you get access to Mirror Image.

Alright then. Shall we delay getting Haste/Displacement/Vampiric? Stoneskin/Imp. Invis.? Should we wait for L19, when we only lose the capstone? Why would you even want the monk dip this late, after you already have access to all those things?

Haste, Displacement, Stoneskin and Improved Invisibility are all buffs that can be cast by a dedicated arcane caster. If the case is that we don't have access to that, then the value of being able to cast those buffs increases dramatically, obviously. But that doesn't apply to my party.

Vampiric Shadowshield is of limited value if one's goal is never to get hit in the first place. Vampiric Touch is primarily an offensive spell, so it's not a simple thing to compare its value to a Monk dip which is primarily defensive, but overall no, I don't believe that access to more and higher-level spell slots to use offensively is a reason to call a Monk dip a bad investment.

As should become clear if one attempts to 'prove' such a thing, whether or not a Monk dip is a good investment or not depends upon a variety of factors, not least of which is the character the dip is being taken on; what role that character plays, and what other classes the character is taking, amongst other things.

I never stated, in a blanket fashion, that Monk is a good investment, I only asked for some proof that it is not, since that is what was asserted.

For my part the only assertion I will make is that I consider it a good investment on my main character build.

 

[Desiderius]

You’re getting more of something you’ve already got in spades at the cost of losing your best level for the whole game.

 

[Parabalus]

You’re getting more of something you’ve already got in spades at the cost of losing your best level for the whole game.

For the majority of the game whether you're M1/SSX or SSX+1 is pretty irrelevant in regards to SS class features.

 

[Dwarvophile]

Damn, I thought my sword saint MC was hitting hard, but since Nok Nok joined the party his DPS really pales in comparison! And, he is quite fun, nice companion, well done Owlcat.

 

[Xamenos]

As should become clear if one attempts to 'prove' such a thing, whether or not a Monk dip is a good investment or not depends upon a variety of factors, not least of which is the character the dip is being taken on; what role that character plays, and what other classes the character is taking, amongst other things.

Yeah, no shit. That's exactly what we've been saying and why always pushing for dips is terrible, terrible advice for a newbie. A newbie by definition CANNOT judge this kind of stuff. And those shilling dips never say "Numbers don't say everything, dips can be a good investment depending on your character, his class, your party, and the level we're talking about". No, you always say shit like "A monk dex tank is always superior to armor tanking, you'll get wrecked if you try" and "Bigger numbers always better, take the splash even if you don't understand what you're losing".

 

[LannTheStupid]

Xam's analysis only holds if DD4 are your last four levels. By that time stats are a drop in the bucket. If you take them up front where those stats look so good you're playing the whole game without your best four Magus levels.

Well, it is kind of obvious, isn't it? I mean - aren't you kicking a strawman here? At least up to the ghost / energy weapon buff (I don't remembet at which level it happens) an Eldritch Scion should not be polluted. However, SS is a different story.

I was disappointed by the alignment dependent buff that the game offered me, and that is what started me considering the dip. In the case of Regongar in Kingmaker this buff is useless; however, it can be godly for an LG Magus in the same game or for Regongar in a setting where we are fighting against angels or something.

 

[Yosharian]

As should become clear if one attempts to 'prove' such a thing, whether or not a Monk dip is a good investment or not depends upon a variety of factors, not least of which is the character the dip is being taken on; what role that character plays, and what other classes the character is taking, amongst other things.

Yeah, no shit. That's exactly what we've been saying and why always pushing for dips is terrible, terrible advice for a newbie. A newbie by definition CANNOT judge this kind of stuff. And those shilling dips never say "Numbers don't say everything, dips can be a good investment depending on your character, his class, your party, and the level we're talking about". No, you always say shit like "A monk dex tank is always superior to armor tanking, you'll get wrecked if you try" and "Bigger numbers always better, take the splash even if you don't understand what you're losing".

I never said 'you'll get wrecked if you try armor tanking', what I said was that heavy armor AC is weaker than monk + bracers of armor AC. And that's true.

And then I suggested a bunch of ways he could use heavy armor to do what he wants...

I also never said 'take the splash even if you don't understand what you're losing', either.

 

[Parabalus]

As should become clear if one attempts to 'prove' such a thing, whether or not a Monk dip is a good investment or not depends upon a variety of factors, not least of which is the character the dip is being taken on; what role that character plays, and what other classes the character is taking, amongst other things.

Yeah, no shit. That's exactly what we've been saying and why always pushing for dips is terrible, terrible advice for a newbie. A newbie by definition CANNOT judge this kind of stuff. And those shilling dips never say "Numbers don't say everything, dips can be a good investment depending on your character, his class, your party, and the level we're talking about". No, you always say shit like "A monk dex tank is always superior to armor tanking, you'll get wrecked if you try" and "Bigger numbers always better, take the splash even if you don't understand what you're losing".

Where do you find these retards?

Dipping is pretty discouraged in the PF system, it's rarely worth it, but these monk dips are a counterexample. Desiderius has some insightful posts on this.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Is there a setting in Paizo Pathfinder where the party fights against mostly good guys? As demon worshippers or Cheliax enforcers or something like that? A campaing for a really evil MC?

 

[Xamenos]

Is there a setting in Paizo Pathfinder where the party fights against mostly good guys? As demon worshippers or Cheliax enforcers or something like that? A campaing for a really evil MC?

Hell's Vengeance has the players be Cheliax enforcers.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Is there a setting in Paizo Pathfinder where the party fights against mostly good guys? As demon worshippers or Cheliax enforcers or something like that? A campaing for a really evil MC?

There is whole AP about it: Hell's Vengence