Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Development Info Pathfinder: Kingmaker Kickstarter Update #75: How We Added Turn-Based Combat

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,228
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Tags: Owlcat Games; Pathfinder: Kingmaker

Owlcat may not have had a proper announcement when the turn-based mode for Pathfinder: Kingmaker was released, but today they published an interesting Kickstarter update about how it was made. Written by programmer Maxim Savenkov, the update describes how Owlcat solved issues such as pathfinding and user interface. It also covers some of the turn-based mode's limitations, which they hope to address in Wrath of the Righteous. Here's an excerpt:

By adding a turn-based mode to the game, we not only wanted to make the game more enjoyable for those who prefer this style of combat, but also easier to understand in general. In this regard, Pathfinder is not the simplest system, especially compared to modern computer role-playing games, where a turn usually consists of two simple actions – movement and attack, where the attack can be replaced with additional movement.

There are at least three important types of actions in Pathfinder – Standard, Move, and Swift. And to make it even more confusing, Move can be used not only for movement, but also for other actions and even spells. In RTwP mode all these details are somewhat hidden from the player, although knowing your way around them is required to play at high difficulty levels. But in turn-based mode they are key, and players who aren't very familiar with the system might be surprised to find that this or that action is impossible depending on seemingly irrelevant circumstances.

We decided to try and makes players' lives a little easier in this regard and came up with a Prediction panel. This is a new panel that appears at the bottom of the screen only in turn-based mode, which shows what will happen if you give an order to the current character. At first glance, this is a rather trivial interface element many other games have. But we had to work really hard to make it show something useful.

Of course, the key problem was the fact that the game was not initially designed for a turn-based mode. The actions the characters perform were split into parts non-transparently for the external code. For example, there are no separate "go" and "hit" actions – instead, there is a "hit" command that means a character will move to the target until they reach it and are able to strike a blow. Moreover, some actions can give rise to other actions. Two things were particularly painful in this regard: touch spells and the Kineticist class.

The bad thing about touch spells (where a character must touch the target to use a spell) is the fact that their implementation can be either incorrect or inconvenient. If we read the rules of Pathfinder, first the character casts a spell, "holds the charge," and then can walk around for a year if they please and do other things until they touch the target. This being said, in the same round that they cast a spell, the character can try to touch the target as a Free Action, but in the subsequent rounds they'll have to make a standard attack and spend a Standard Action. At first glance, everything is pretty simple, but there is a nuance: in all the other computer games the most commonly used touch spell – healing – works differently: you select a target, approach it, heal it. If we implemented touch spells the way they are described in the rulebook, that is, first the spell is cast without a target, then we have to select it, the absolute majority of players would not understand it.

As a result, in RTwP mode touch spells try to pretend they aren't different from all the others. The player chooses a spell, then a target, and something immediately starts to happen. Namely: the player starts to move towards the target, at a certain range they cast the spell, and then keep moving with a charge in their hand. If during this time the target disappeared (died, for example), we can select a new target, using the spells icon, appearing in the Action Bar (not the greatest solution, as it turns out, since no one ever notices it, and the players feel the spell was just wasted).

We couldn't completely change the way such spells work in turn-based mode, that's why we had to adapt and teach the Prediction Panel to consider all the peculiar features of this type of spell. However, we did introduce one change: in turn-based mode the character using a touch spell casts the spell first without moving, and only moves afterwards, if necessary.

The Kineticist class problem is both simpler and trickier. It's simpler to describe. The problem with Kineticists is that they are the only class that can do something for more than 1 round. The Gather Power skill, decreasing the cost of other skills of the kineticist, may take one, two, or three actions, and the entire use of a skill may take up to two complete rounds.

Again, here we had to deviate from the official rules of Pathfinder for the sake of familiarity for computer RPG players. Actually, Gather Power is not in any way connected to the used skill. First the player announces they are going to gather power, and only later, when this process is over (possibly during the next round), can they use whatever skill for which this power was gathered. Unfortunately, in an RTwP fight it would be totally inconvenient: the players would constantly forget that their Kineticist started gathering power. As a result, we've come up with a solution: the player specifies from the start what they are going to use the gathered power for. Moreover, the game calculates how many units of power is required, and the player just sets the maximum (that is, if you allow 3 units of power to be gathered, and only 1 is required for the skill, only 1 will be gathered, and one action, not three will be spent).

In turn-based combat we couldn't change this approach within a reasonable time frame. We don't love the current result, and we'll try to improve it in Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous. The player is still able to set the power gathering maximum, select the skill they want to use, and only after this will the gathering of power commence. That said, if power gathering takes more than 1 action (that is, the skill will have to be used during the next round), it will not be applied automatically, since the situation could have changed completely (for example, the target could have disappeared). This is a little counter-intuitive and inconvenient, but unfortunately we are working within the limitations of RTwP mode.
It's more complex than I expected, given that a modder was able to do it on his own. I guess it might be different when you're obligated to stick as close to the ruleset as possible.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
Patron
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
28,396
Location
Not Here
Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
I'm happy with the animation speed slider. Yeah you can toggle between RT & TB if you feel the trash mobs are just left click kill.
It's ok.
I can make sense of large battles now without constant pausing, looking at the action timers, or re-reading combat logs.
Now please remaster Arcanum with this engine.
 
Last edited:

Tyrr

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 25, 2020
Messages
2,257
It's awfully slow and is all across the board worse than the TB combat mod.
I guess you can still use the mod?
I still have a save with my 2nd playthrough where I used the TB mod, that I want to finish some day.
 

Riddler

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 5, 2009
Messages
2,353
Bubbles In Memoria
RTwP is so shit that even consoletards cannot into it.

Kangmaker got TB cause the groundwork was already done by a modder, AND owlcat & pub wanna gobble up that console cock.

Why the hell would people like it on consoles? It's based on RTS and necessitates keyboard and mouse to be remotely enjoyable.
 
Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
4,499
Location
The border of the imaginary
RTwP is so shit that even consoletards cannot into it.

Kangmaker got TB cause the groundwork was already done by a modder, AND owlcat & pub wanna gobble up that console cock.

Why the hell would people like it on consoles? It's based on RTS and necessitates keyboard and mouse to be remotely enjoyable.
Its based on a TB PnP; and should be played as such. TB games can be played with controller.

Owlcal & Pub already released it on consoles btw...
 

Pink Eye

Monk
Patron
Joined
Oct 10, 2019
Messages
5,793
Location
Space Refrigerator
I'm very into cock and ball torture
RTwP is so shit that even consoletards cannot into it.

Kangmaker got TB cause the groundwork was already done by a modder, AND owlcat & pub wanna gobble up that console cock.

Why the hell would people like it on consoles? It's based on RTS and necessitates keyboard and mouse to be remotely enjoyable.
I heard you can play Baldur's Gate EE on an ipad if you can believe it.
 

Pink Eye

Monk
Patron
Joined
Oct 10, 2019
Messages
5,793
Location
Space Refrigerator
I'm very into cock and ball torture
When I download the Patch I am going to play turn based monks to see how good the feature is.
Monks are a waste of your channeled autism.
Vivi is the one true way.
Monk isn't for everyone. The early game is brutal. You don't get as many exciting class features compared to other classes. You will slack behind in terms of damage. But. If persevere. If you overcome the challenge. You will find a fun class that rewards you greatly for learning the game. As the lessons you gain from playing monks, can be applied to other classes. Such things include knowing how to pick the right feats so you are not completely useless. Or knowing how to properly optimize your stats. Or even knowing how to position properly in team fights.
 
Last edited:
Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
4,499
Location
The border of the imaginary
When I download the Patch I am going to play turn based monks to see how good the feature is.
Monks are a waste of your channeled autism.
Vivi is the one true way.
Monk isn't for everyone. The early game is brutal. You don't get as many exciting class features compared to other classes. You will slack behind in terms of damage. But. If persevere. If you overcome the challenge. You will find a fun class that rewards you greatly for learning the game. As the lessons you gain from playing monks, can be applied to other classes. Such things include knowing how to pick the right feats so you are not completely useless. Or knowing how to properly optimize your stats. Or even knowing how to position properly in team fights.
Thing I don't like with monks is they need 3 stats to be effective: Str,Dex, Wis. Yeah that makes for a brutal early gamer and most of the game is over by the time you get the good stuff at level 15+
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
Patron
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
28,396
Location
Not Here
Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
Early game combat footage of vivisectionist

PlkH4Rc.png
 

Bloodeyes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
2,908
Why the hell would people like it on consoles? It's based on RTS and necessitates keyboard and mouse to be remotely enjoyable.

People liked Pillars on console.
I have it on ps4 and I hate it. It's a real bitch managing a party with a controller instead of a mouse and keyboard. It's too slow and clunky. The RTwP and flashy spell effects also make combat an almost incomprehensible mess. I also own Baldur's Gate on ps4 and Switch and I have similar problems. I blink and my party is down. Party based RTwP just doesn't translate well to controllers at all. At least not in the games I have played. Turn-based does though. Tides of Numenera on ps4 works great. I didn't feel at all disadvantaged by playing it on console.

RTwP games where you control a single character work fine on console. I would offer The Technomancer as an example of this. Not as a good game, but as a cRPG that works well on console. Unsurprisingly I guess. So yeah, turn-based with or without a party works great, RTwP controlling a single character is fine, but once you go to RTwP party based combat consoles shit the bed. It's cool that more types of games are getting console ports though, even though some of them don't really work.

Hopefully Baldur's Gate 3 gets a console port! It's the only way my broke student ass will get to play it!
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom