Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition - now with A Dance of Masks epilogue DLC

[Grunker]

Vivi is not exploitative or "over the top" IMO.

...but neither is using the strong classes, the Devs offer to, us you mentioned, that seem to mostly work as intended.

It's nothing like exploiting Expanded Arsenal, old Elemental Barrage, 5x stacking Cha to AC or stacking polymorphs...

I'm not arguing from an ethical standpoint. I'm arguing from an "I don't want to steamroll the game"-standpoint. Obviously I can't know what's too strong and what's not since I haven't played the game.

 

[Yosharian]

Alright Grunker let me try and clarify a few things.

You wish to play a character that is suboptimal in order to preserve a level of challenge in the game and also feed your desire to create something 'unique' and/or 'unusual'. I get that. I found in my Kingmaker playthrough that I had created a team so powerful that nothing in the game presented any level of challenge, even with mods upping monster stats to ridiculous levels. So I do get it.

My view is that, by opting out of weapons entirely and only using natural attacks, you are already creating a pretty decent level of challenge. You are opting out of the crazy on-hit/on-crit effects that weapons can bring, opting out of absurd crit ranges e.g. fauchard, scimitar, and so on. That, to me, is enough of a handicap that you don't need to opt out of any other things, like BFT or Skald and so on.

But it seems that you aren't happy with only taking natural attacks, you also want to opt out of taking the best support classes in the game to back you. In this case I'm not sure how to help you because I can't see into your brain and determine what will and what won't go beyond what you consider acceptable. I am a player that tends to enjoy optimizing things to the maximum as that's the 'puzzle' that I enjoy solving, if you like.

So I can only point out the things that I think are suboptimal and suggest improvements to those areas, tbh.

BTW I am not calling you an idiot and I'm sure Hap isn't either, we are just trying to understand what you're going for and it's a little puzzling =)

 

[ArchAngel]

Hopefully Battle Scion Skald is good.

It is. Very, if a little clunky on the activation in RTwP. It was my MC for Unfair run. It shares all your TW Feats, not just those you take instead of Rage Powers, so just take Rage Powers.

What rage powers should I take with Skald to give to party full of melee (and some will have their own rage powers)?
I was thinking Beast Totem line and Reckless or maybe I should go Leathal Stance with Skald and take Guardian Stance and Reckless with Bloodrager (and some Barb I have yet to add to party).

 

[Grunker]

You wish to play a character that is suboptimal in order to preserve a level of challenge in the game and also feed your desire to create something 'unique' and/or 'unusual'. I get that. I found in my Kingmaker playthrough that I had created a team so powerful that nothing in the game presented any level of challenge, even with mods upping monster stats to ridiculous levels. So I do get it.

Spot on.

But it seems that you aren't happy with only taking natural attacks, you also want to opt out of taking the best support classes in the game to back you

Again: only because I'm afraid it will push me over the top. I have no qualms about taking one if it doesn't. Indeed, if people's sense is that I will have an ass time on Unfair if I don't, I want to bring that motherfucker.

But in Kingmaker, Unfair was steamrolled completely even without *any* powerful build choices at all.

 

[ArchAngel]

I guess game knows I wanted to make a melee heavy party with a Skald so offered me this Tailwind:

Spoiler

Hopefully Battle Scion Skald is good.


What do you guys recommend as main character and what Mythic path should I go for 3rd Voyage with above Tailwind?

No it's fucking terrible. The ability is very hard to scale as it isn't properly tagged as a Sonic ability so it doesn't benefit from any of the Sonic DC boosting items. I think the only item that I managed to boost it with was the Fortitude save robe. The damage is pathetic and the status effects will never trigger because the enemy will always save.

Well, if you play on baby mode it might be ok.

I am confused, what Sonic ability are you talking about? Battle Scion Skald is like normal Skald but can also share teamwork feats?!

 

[Stoned Ape]

Finally done with something approaching an MC build. Feel free to shit on it and tell me about things I missed or things you would do differently. I’ve got three goals:

• Something off-kilter that’s gonna be fun to build, but:
• Can still be strong enough to beat Unfair without too much hair-pulling and:
• Doesn't abuse exploits or make the game steamrolled

Link to the build: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16qq--FuBKw86vLMhPajQMr8ij5zAvsSN4n1rsrcaTR8/edit?usp=sharing

13 BAB is pretty terrible dude. For Unfair I don't think this build is very good, have you calculated your maximum AB & AC? I think you will struggle

You are taking Outflank and StM - they do not stack

Why exactly are you going 12 in Primalist, for the Serpentine reach thing, or something else?

Is turning into a dragon something you have considered for this build?

You do not need Brutality Incarnate if you are buffing your attacks with Greater Magic Fang or the amulet of mighty fists

Have you considered being a Kitsune so that you have access to free pounce?

Thanks for your comments bro,

1. 13BAB was my greatest concern, but there’s no way to stack natural attacks without this retardation, so the question is less whether it is bad and more whether it is too bad… you think it’s gonna fuck me on Unfair? It’s not 13 btw, looking at it again it is 15. Much better, no?

Isn't it actually 17 BAB?

12 Primalist (+12 BAB, Full Progression)
3 Vivisectionist (+2 BAB, Mid progression)
1 Oracle (+0 BAB, Mid Progression)
4 Dragon Disciple (+3 BAB, Mid Progression)

Mythic Toughness is pretty poor. I'd probably go for the one which deals STR damage when you miss instead, you should be able to stack STR really high and still do decent damage against high AC with all your attacks.

I've previously grabbed Weapon Focus, Specialization, and Impoved Crit separately for Claws, Bite and Gore. I thought the general natural attacks one only works for niche stuff like wing buffet and tail lash. I could be wrong on that but it's worth checking before you commit to it. It's one of the reasons I like Feral Champion, to get bonus combat feats to spread around claws, bite, and gore and have them all scale damage with level.

I'd second the Stigmatized Witch over Oracle option. Grab Nails Hex for 2 claw attacks when not raging until you go full demon claws if you don't want Iceplant.

If you do that, I'd grab Beneficial Curse at Mythic 1 to get Wolf Scarred (Character Level 6), and then grab second bloodline: Bloodrager at MR 2. You only delay the bite 1 level that way. You shouldn't need Brutality Incarnate.

Leading Strike is nowhere near as useful in turn-based as it is in RTWP, I'm pretty sure it can only trigger once a turn. I'd consider getting Rupture Restraints or Limitless Rage instead.

It's worth keeping in mind First three mythic ranks tend to arrive around level 6, 8, and 11. MR 4 is harder to predict, could be between level 12 and 14, then level 14 or 15 for MR 5.

 

[Yosharian]

No it's fucking terrible. The ability is very hard to scale as it isn't properly tagged as a Sonic ability so it doesn't benefit from any of the Sonic DC boosting items. I think the only item that I managed to boost it with was the Fortitude save robe. The damage is pathetic and the status effects will never trigger because the enemy will always save.

Well, if you play on baby mode it might be ok.

I am confused, what Sonic ability are you talking about? Battle Scion Skald is like normal Skald but can also share teamwork feats?!

Ahh I'm sorry brother, I got it mixed up with the Battle Singer archetype. My bad. Yeah Battle Scion is alright I guess.

 

[Stoned Ape]

I'd also consider pushing STR to 19 and dropping CON to 12. Every point of STR early helps and I think that getting +1 to hit and damage at 4th level will be more useful than +4 HP.

 

[Cyberarmy]

ACHTUNG!

Dunno about other prestige classes but Dragon Disciple is bugged in EE right now! You cannot choose it after meeting all the required stuff...
Classic Owlcat, this so called "Enhanced Edition" is yet another disgrace.

Edit: Problem is with the Red Bloodline only it seems, other colours were OK .

 

[Yosharian]

I think Stoned Ape makes some really good points. It's worth considering that you could get all your Rage Power toys from a friendly Skald, and that would allow you to go Warpriest and start boosting up your natural attack damage. What is it, 1D20 at level 20? If all your attacks hit that hard, and you use Legendary Proportions, and you use Divine Power, you could actually start hitting pretty hard in melee instead of hitting like a wet noodle. I basically have two concerns about your build, that you won't hit hard enough, and that you'll just get murdered because of your low AC.

Edit: Ok it's only 2D8 at level 20 so not that amazing, but still decent.

Edit: ok apparently Warpriest can get Brilliant Energy on their attacks? That's pretty interesting and could make WP wayyyyyyy stronger than Bloodrager.

 

[Grunker]

For reference/in relation to the debate about OPness/how to handle Unfair, this is my current rough party plan (remember I'm respeccing party members):

MC Natural Attacker Demon
Regill Shield Basher
? Cavalier
Arueshalae ranged DPS of some sort, probably a ranger
Camellia Shaman (no archetype, seems incredibly shit to lose Animal Companion with her base Spirit Hunter thingy)
Ember Stigmatized Witch

Isn't it actually 17 BAB?

12 Primalist (+12 BAB, Full Progression)
3 Vivisectionist (+2 BAB, Mid progression)
1 Oracle (+0 BAB, Mid Progression)
4 Dragon Disciple (+3 BAB, Mid Progression)

Yep, it totally is, I even edited it to something that was also wrong (15).

Mythic Toughness is pretty poor.

Mythics are where I'm totally lost. I'll probably revamp the whole outline based on what you guys advice me to.

I've previously grabbed Weapon Focus, Specialization, and Impoved Crit separately for Claws, Bite and Gore. I thought the general natural attacks one only works for niche stuff like wing buffet and tail lash. I could be wrong on that but it's worth checking before you commit to it. It's one of the reasons I like Feral Champion, to get bonus combat feats to spread around claws, bite, and gore and have them all scale damage with level.

Like I said, I'm using the mod that groups Weapon Focus. So one Weapon Focus will give me Weapon Focus on Bite, Claw and Gore.

I'd second the Stigmatized Witch over Oracle option. Grab Nails Hex for 2 claw attacks when not raging until you go full demon claws if you don't want Iceplant.

Oracle gives me Weapon Focus, which is even more important after I discussed some things with Daidre and change the feat progression up. So now I take Oracle on Level 2 for Wep Focus, then Dazzling Display level 3, to make room for Cornugon Smash and Power Attack level 7. Claws are kindda superflous except for some early QoL.

If you do that, I'd grab Beneficial Curse at Mythic 1 to get Wolf Scarred (Character Level 6), and then grab second bloodline: Bloodrager at MR 2. You only delay the bite 1 level that way. You shouldn't need Brutality Incarnate.

That's a great suggestion. I'm really going back and forth on Beneficial Curse. Daidre says I won't be casting spells almost at all anyway, but OTOH, 10% spell failure sounds incredibly annoying...

Leading Strike is nowhere near as useful in turn-based as it is in RTWP, I'm pretty sure it can only trigger once a turn. I'd consider getting Rupture Restraints or Limitless Rage instead.

Nice suggestion, thanks!

 

[Grunker]

ACHTUNG!

Dunno about other prestige classes but Dragon Disciple is bugged in EE right now! You cannot choose it after meeting all the required stuff...
Classic Owlcat, this so called "Enhanced Edition" is yet another disgrace.

Works fine for me, at least in my Inevitable Excess testing. Are you sure you're not falling for the Draconic Bloodline trap?

 

[Grunker]

I think Stoned Ape makes some really good points. It's worth considering that you could get all your Rage Power toys from a friendly Skald, and that would allow you to go Warpriest and start boosting up your natural attack damage. What is it, 1D20 at level 20? If all your attacks hit that hard, and you use Legendary Proportions, and you use Divine Power, you could actually start hitting pretty hard in melee instead of hitting like a wet noodle. I basically have two concerns about your build, that you won't hit hard enough, and that you'll just get murdered because of your low AC.

Edit: Ok it's only 2D8 at level 20 so not that amazing, but still decent.

It's actually 3d8 if you're large. One of the reasons I switched from Warpriest is the BAB though, and it gets even worse if you do all the dips to maximize natural attacks (which is the whole point of the build).

 

[Yosharian]

Yeah that's true but you have Divine Power and since you're going for a build that is only powerful in short bursts anyway (Demonic Rage being limited in rounds per day) then I think that fits quite well

With Warpriest 16 you can get +4 Divine Power I think, and then you have Brilliant Energy which grants an absolute shit ton of effective AB

It would also improve your armor which apparently you want to use

 

[Grunker]

Yeah that's true but you have Divine Power and since you're going for a build that is only powerful in short bursts anyway (Demonic Rage being limited in rounds per day)

True, though with reshuffling my mythics I could probably fit in Limitless Rage earlier.

 

[ArchAngel]

Ok let me write down my current plan for melee party with the tailwind that gives me bonus life for bloodragers, barbarians and select Skalds and Druids and I hope people can give me useful info about it if you want.

So I took advice and main is Bloodrager Primalist going Demon path. Took Undead to get easy shaken status effect on anyone I charge that lasts half my Bloodrager level. It should be good enough for start, later I will probably need some way to do aoe shaken. Plan is to go Falchion and focus on crits and power attacks. I will be picking up Rage Powers instead of Bloodline ones although lvl 4 undead one is kind of cool with free Ghost Touch on all weapons I use. Maybe I should start taking Rage Powers at lvl 8 :D
#2 is Battle Scion Skald that will be providing Pounce to everyone and probably lethal stance. I have this guy Glaive so he can provide flanked and can do bonus damage. For now I took extra rage music and lingering rage music but later I will be taking TeamWork feats and probably extra rage power feat so he will never be focused on direct damage dealing.
#3 I took Primal Druid Dwarf with Smilodon Pet. This one will be mounted combat warrior once Smilodon becomes Large at lvl 7. If I can also enlarge Smilodon with Animal Growth I can also use Enlarge Person feature of Primal Druid. I took Scythe with him. I already took two mounted combat feats to get to bonus damage. I don't plan to wildshape this druid. I will probably not let rage song affect him so I can still cast spells.
#4 I was planning Brown Fur Transmuter for this slot as main buffer for party, also I never played Arcanist so wanted to try one.
#5 For this slot probably Crusader as I need a full divine caster. Maybe some Oracle. I am taking suggestions for this one, it just needs to be full divine and decent at melee combat. I might also make this one #4 addition to party to get more healing. I was also thinking Kitsune for this one so I can pounce without rage song but maybe I just go Vital Strike route.
#6 Barbarian, probably Invurnerable Rager due to not losing much but getting more DR. I was also looking at Instinctual Warrior to make him a tank but he seems to not get bonus damage, only bonus attack.

My only rule is that I only use one pet character, it is why Barbarian is not Mad Dog as I know that one is best Barbarian. And I play on Core so I don't need crazy multiclass builds.

 

[ga♥]

So EE does not really add new content right? just a bit of dialogues?
Chapter V still sucks?

 

[Cyberarmy]

ACHTUNG!

Dunno about other prestige classes but Dragon Disciple is bugged in EE right now! You cannot choose it after meeting all the required stuff...
Classic Owlcat, this so called "Enhanced Edition" is yet another disgrace.

Works fine for me, at least in my Inevitable Excess testing. Are you sure you're not falling for the Draconic Bloodline trap?

I think the problem is with the Red Dragon bloodline, changed it to another and problem seems to solved after it, but cannot choose red. Which I wanted to go for thematic reasons...

 

[ArchAngel]

So EE does not really add new content right? just a bit of dialogues?
Chapter V still sucks?

One more quest for most Mythic paths in Chapter 5.

 

[ga♥]

So EE does not really add new content right? just a bit of dialogues?
Chapter V still sucks?

One more quest for most Mythic paths in Chapter 5.

I read only legend get a quest, hmm.

 

[Grunker]

ACHTUNG!

Dunno about other prestige classes but Dragon Disciple is bugged in EE right now! You cannot choose it after meeting all the required stuff...
Classic Owlcat, this so called "Enhanced Edition" is yet another disgrace.

Works fine for me, at least in my Inevitable Excess testing. Are you sure you're not falling for the Draconic Bloodline trap?

I think the problem is with the Red Dragon bloodline, changed it to another and problem seems to solved after it, but cannot choose red. Which I wanted to go for thematic reasons...

DD is fucking weird, Bloodrager can choose it without a bloodline AND gets bloodline feats from it when it shouldn't (if the Bloodrager doesn't even have a Draconic bloodline).

 

[Parabalus]

When is the Enhanced Plus edition coming?

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Quick question: if I was willing to check for suggestions about companions builds, is there any source slightly less autistic that Neoseeker?
I would ideally like to avoid their super sperg-friendly four-classes-dips into multiclassing.

 

[ArchAngel]

Quick question: if I was willing to check for suggestions about companions builds, is there any source slightly less autistic that Neoseeker?
I would ideally like to avoid their super sperg-friendly four-classes-dips into multiclassing.

They are all good as they come, if you do not need super sperg builds, you can leave them as they are. Devs did better with these companions then ones in first game.
Only some Lich path companions are bad.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Quick question: if I was willing to check for suggestions about companions builds, is there any source slightly less autistic that Neoseeker?
I would ideally like to avoid their super sperg-friendly four-classes-dips into multiclassing.

Bolshyplays on youtube had some good suggestions.