On yet another different topic....
I'll probably be starting another playthrough soon, the exact time depends on whether I decide to start it on my current 1.37 patch soon or wait another couple of weeks or however long it takes Owlcat to whip EE into a decent shape.
But either way, I'm curious to try out the Demon Path this time and had an idea of building a "rip and tear" beast-like character that uses Natural Weapons. Which Class would be best for that? I figured a Vivisectionist might be the one because of the Feral Mutagen (plus Sneak Attack Damage and self-buffs), but I've never done a similar build so I'm pretty clueless.
Grunker You're playing something like this, ye?
I am playing *exactly that*, in fact. My build is fairly narrow-mindedly going for maximizing natural attacks (it has an insane amount of attacks compared to its level - 3 at level 1, 4 at level 2, 7 at level 4 (!), and it just scales up from there. Gets +1 from haste, and plus another from Beast's Gift if you have a Witch.
I thought it would be shit because it sacrifices a ton of BAB and other stuff to get there, but it’s actually TONS of fun and really excellent even on Unfair which I’m playing. Even at Level 10 my Cleric is often just spending her turn using Bit of Luck on my MC, because getting to roll twice for to hit with 17 million attacks is just excellent.
And I’m not even at this build’s real breaking point yet:
when Demon converts all those mediocre secondary attacks to juicy primary ones, making you both hit more easily (essentially +5 to hit with a lot of your attacks) and deal waaaaay more damage (primary attacks get bigger strength modifier AND bigger Power Attack modifier). At that point, you're essentially power-attacking with a million "two-handed" weapon attacks
all at full BAB.
The full build is here. You could mess around with it as you’d like in many ways - for instance, motherless Tiefling would work as well (however I like the +intimidate and extra skills from Half-Orc plus they look very Warcraft-chaos-esque when they get Demon, but it does cost a Feat for Razortusk), as would a number of other main class combinations:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16qq--FuBKw86vLMhPajQMr8ij5zAvsSN4n1rsrcaTR8/edit?usp=sharing
A few notes:
- Note that using Claws is more of a thematic choice than an optimal one, since they don't scale extra attacks with BAB. I.e. when you have +11/+6/+1 you'll still only attack twice with Claws. So you could definetely opt for a two-handed weapon instead - you'll still keep all your bites and gores.
- There's one finnicky trick you have to do on level 7 due to how the interface works: you can't pick Cornugon Smash because it requires Power Attack, which you get from the Bloodline bonus feat at the same level. So you have to pick another feat, then select Power Attack, then go back to the previous feat and select Cornugon Smash.
- I use the Weapon Groups Mod - without it, Weapon Focus for Natural Attacks is a nightmare. Could be considered cheating though.
- I was very worried about the global spell failure in the build (from Oracle's Curse), but it has turned out to be a non-issue. I haven't noticed it once tbh. I might do when I start casting Mirror Image, though. If you're really worried about it, just choose another Oracle Curse and then choose the bite as a Beneficial Curse with mythics, or cut out Oracle entirely. Do note, though, that Oracle 1st level spells aren't actually as useless as may be implied: it actually means you can be the Remove Fear + Shield of Faith applier for the group (SoF only in early game), freeing up your other divine casters' 1st level slots.
- There are probably many paths for more strict optimization (that I would never do, but if you're in it for the power you would). For example, Lesser Fiend Totem is just +1 natural attack, there are better Rage Powers. Like Reckless Attacks or Beast Totem. If you go Beast you can scrap Bloodline powers on all levels and get Pounce, which should be amazing, for instance. The build as presented here is going for the full thematic archetype, so that's: most naturals possible within as much of a demony framework as possible. So plenty of room for optimization.
- Even if you don't change the core class of Bloodrager (Primalist), there are essentially three levels where you can do whatever; 18, 19 and 20. I chose level 4 DD for the stat boosts and then a level of Vivi for another Sneak Attack dice, but really, there are a number of options you could go with here.
- Second Bloodline is debatable. It gets you a shitton of feats but not much else (and you run out of relevant feats fairly quickly), and as you can see, you don't get the double bloodline-powers until level 17 because you take rage powers instead until then. Abyssal also isn't the most worthwhile Bloodline probably, but I like it for the flavor.
- Last Stand is pretty much necessary on the build and I'd highly recommend you get it on level 1 if you don't go duo bloodline (duo bloodlines is time sensitive). You do get Shield and later Mirror Image and stuff to protect yourself - and you should always be Enlarged for Reach, but expect your MC to die often on Hard and Unfair without Last Stand.
- Another weakness of the build is DR penetration - but that is fixed easily by getting and keeping the DR penetration relic for one of your Utility slots, and Align Weapon works on your naturals (Crusader's Edge does not, however). If you give the relic it to Galfrey like I did, expect to be less than optimal until you get Amulet of Mighty Fists/Agile Fists +2 (and later +3). From there on out, you shouldn't have too many issues.
- For the above reason, I used a two-handed weapon instead of my claws until Mythic 3 where you get permanent claws (this is also QoL since you don't have to worry about lack of claws out of Rage).
- Mythics from Rank 4 forward are more ideas than something I've decided on, I'm still exploring that system. Limitless Rage might also be redundant strictly speaking since it doesn't work on Demonic Rage (boooooo!), but it's still nice QoL.
- One weird downside to my statrange that I hadn't considered is that I actually can't cast my Alchemist spells
This should be solved with items down the line (you only get 1st level Alc spells so you just need 11 - but that still requires +3 because of the -2 from Mutagen).
- An entirely different spin on the build which is more Gish-like but also gets way, way less natural attacks is going for Warpriest [Feral Champion] as suggested by
Stoned Ape. What this gets you is: 1) higher damage dice on your naturals, 2) awesome self-buffs, 3) pump your naturals with enhancements, 4) permanent claws earlier, 5) no rage-reliance. However it changes the build entirely because you can't multiclass as aggressively (since that would lose the entire point of Warpriest which is Natural Attack damage dice scaling and enhancement scaling) and, as such, you have way, waaaaay fewer attacks. It's probably a more versatile but less focused (and therefore less powerful) build.
- Another spin is to go for a defensive, Charisma-reliant build with Scaled Fist and actively use the Demonic Transformations. This completely negates the need to stack naturals (since those disappear in transformations anyway). You could also focus on these transformations with a whole range of other builds.
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Daidre was instrumental in helping put the build together, and I hear he is considering doing it himself for an island DLC run, so he might have more suggestions.
