Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[mediocrepoet]

And if you ever catch yourself saying "what would six levels of any another class add?" just stop. You know better than that. Opportunity cost can't just be wished away.

Indeed. And yet, given what the entire point of the build is, that's what the question is. That you repeatedly miss the point doesn't change that. Besides, you're more than a little disingenuous, as we can see....

+2 for a stat is +1 AB out of what ends up being +100. There’s so many ways to get there that unless you want a full-fledged Arcanist I wouldn’t go that direction.

Sure, this is sensible I guess. I mean, why use one way when there are so many others... but if there are many ways of skinning a cat, is it really so questionable why I chose this particular one?

The power of Brown Fur is that it's not just +2 once but it's +2 on Bull's, and +2 on Enlarge, and +2 on Legendary, etc. Capstone doubles all of them.

Oh, ok. So, when the difference isn't between +0 and +2 (2) but is rather between +2 and +4 (2), the +2 matters. But before that, there are many ways of getting there, so why choose this one? Even though getting that capstone locks out the capstone I actually want and drops your BAB from +15 to +10. And loses a whole host of other abilities.




I'd admonish you for arguing in bad faith, but I'll just let you do it to yourself:

You know better than that.

That said once you take TTT into account there's enough with the Move Action teleport and one or two Bombs of your choice along with something else I'm forgetting.

Oh, so it gets good if you mod the game which I'm not doing? That's... amazing and not completely irrelevant. I'm sure you'll have a lot of fun with that. Meanwhile, when I have a character I'm looking set up to do something completely different with, perhaps your choice is no longer one size fits all.


And finally, on the topic of knowing better... I want you to consider your own statement and a lesson in arithmetic.

But you need the Arcane Pool to upgrade every one. Splashing isn't really a thing.

Ok, so from the top:

Powerful Change: At 3rd level, the brown-fur transmuter learns to harness the power of her magic to empower her transmutations. Whenever the brown-fur transmuter casts a transmutation spell using one of her arcanist spell slots, she can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir as a free action to bolster the spell. If the spell grants a bonus to an ability score, the bonus then increases by 2. If it grants a bonus to more than one ability score, only one of the ability scores gains this bonus. The brown-fur transmuter cannot expend more than 1 point from her arcane reservoir in this way.

Arcane Reservoir: An arcanist has an innate pool of magical energy that she can draw upon to fuel her arcanist exploits and enhance her spells. The arcanist's arcane reservoir can hold a maximum amount of magical energy equal to 3 + the arcanist's level. Each day, when preparing spells, the arcanist's arcane reservoir fills with raw magical energy, gaining a number of points equal to 3 + 1/2 her arcanist level. Any points she had from the previous day are lost. She can also regain these points through the consume spells class feature and some arcanist exploits. The arcane reservoir can never hold more points than the maximum amount noted above; points gained in excess of this total are lost.

Points from the arcanist reservoir are used to fuel many of the arcanist's powers. In addition, the arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir as a free action whenever she casts an arcanist spell. If she does, she can choose to increase the caster level by 1 or increase the spell's DC by 1. She can expend no more than 1 point from her reservoir on a given spell in this way.

What does this mean? I'm glad you asked! It means that as a level 6 arcanist, I get arcanist level + 3 arcane reservoir points which is... N+3 = x -> [6] + 3 = 9
You can check this math yourself on your abacus, if you'd like, but I'm sure it's correct.
I get 9 points. Which means, I can enhance 9 spells.

Do you suppose I need more than 9 buffs when each lasts 24 hours, bonuses of the same type don't stack, AND it's not necessarily worthwhile to buff every stat of which there are 6? I don't. But also, fun fact: 6 < 9.

Therefore, the 9 points will be sufficient to buff the spells that matter for their day duration and even do it again if they should get dispelled. I should normally also have a few points left over to use the arcanist spell boosting powers at times, just not as often as a pure arcanist. Which is fine because this isn't a pure arcanist and was never intended to be.

Anyway, we can disagree on any number of things, but I'd really like you to explain to me how +2 doesn't matter when it's the difference between +0 and +2, but it's life or death when you it's +2 to +4 even though that opportunity cost is literally the entire rest of your build (17 class levels) which is as hefty as it gets, meanwhile the opportunity cost on the first equivalent bonus is 3 class levels (roughly 1/6 of the cost).

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah, I was assuming you'd be using TTT. It fixes several things that are pretty basic. You can turn off the things you don't like.

Splash just gets a few +2s, full class gets them all (and eventually +4s). I stopped reading halfway through because you're intentionally missing my points.

 

[Desiderius]

BFT is a class I’ve actually played and I never thought for a minute “let’s totally fuck myself for a couple BAB and a shittier capstone”.

Im speaking from experience. The weaknesses of the class make you want more levels in it to get the payoff, not less. The poor implementation puts even more stress on that.

Again, the problem is on the EK side with these builds. It’s like there are too many abilities and people just reach for something more straightforward which I can totally get because I get overwhelmed with item flooding in games like Chalice II and D:OSII.

It’s just a bad fit with classes that have a lot of scaling abilities to make up for shortcoming in other areas.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Yeah, I was assuming you'd be using TTT. It fixes several things that are pretty basic. You can turn off the things you don't like.

Splash just gets a few +2s, full class gets them all (and eventually +4s). I stopped reading halfway through because you're intentionally missing my points.

Sure. +2 isn't +2. Do you even read your own points?

 

[mediocrepoet]

BFT is a class I’ve actually played and I never thought for a minute “let’s totally fuck myself for a couple BAB and a shittier capstone”.

Im speaking from experience. The weaknesses of the class make you want more levels in it to get the payoff, not less. The poor implementation puts even more stress on that.

Again, the problem is on the EK side with these builds. It’s like there are too many abilities and people just reach for something more straightforward which I can totally get because I get overwhelmed with item flooding in games like Chalice II and D:OSII.

It’s just a bad fit with classes that have a lot of scaling abilities to make up for shortcoming in other areas.

Actually, I'm going to back up a bit. Here's an honest question for your experience: Do you understand the difference between a marginal opportunity cost and a total opportunity cost? Your arguments suggest that you don't, but I normally don't think of you as a fool, so... I'm sort of left wondering.

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah, I was assuming you'd be using TTT. It fixes several things that are pretty basic. You can turn off the things you don't like.

Splash just gets a few +2s, full class gets them all (and eventually +4s). I stopped reading halfway through because you're intentionally missing my points.

Sure. +2 isn't +2. Do you even read your own points?

Yes, small pool = few, large pool = many

 

[mediocrepoet]

Yeah, I was assuming you'd be using TTT. It fixes several things that are pretty basic. You can turn off the things you don't like.

Splash just gets a few +2s, full class gets them all (and eventually +4s). I stopped reading halfway through because you're intentionally missing my points.

Sure. +2 isn't +2. Do you even read your own points?

Yes, small pool = few, large pool = many

Mmhmm. Look, if you're not even going to read or think, don't waste my time. You're just making yourself look retarded.

 

[Desiderius]

Have you played BFT?

 

[ga♥]

However you may get the final (or even final 2) Mythic Ranks very late, so maybe best not to set one's plans basing on those.

Timing for Mythic Rank 9 is all over the place between different paths. Azata, Demon and Trickster could get theirs right in the beginning of chapter 5, but Angel needs to complete all 3 main story quests in chapter 5 and gets MR 9 super-late. I do not know about Aeon and Lich. Very curious about Lich too.

Lich Is immediatly at the start of the chapter too

 

[Sarathiour]

GD only need to do the prison and a few errand.

 

[Desiderius]

So you’re mad that you’re wanting to do an EK Signifier thing and trying to figure out the best thing to do to get the prereqs and I’m looking at things backwards and comparing BFT 20 to the different thing you want to do. That’s fair enough.

Guess I’m coming from the same place Daidre is of playing BFT and even at lvl 6 or 7 feeling like it really wasn’t getting there yet but of course it eventually does. So splashes with it feel especially bad.

But yeah given the prereq for EK what else are you going to do? Interesting question. Bloodrager? Too slow.

I guess six levels with Powerful change is better than five + two Wiz Feats + Wiz stuff?

Still not a fan of forcing the merge if you want to attack, tho I can understand it.

 

[Haplo]

In case someone might find it of use, here's my current build:

Charging Sanctified Slayer Build

As usually, the build idea is to take advantage of the Spirited Charge doubling all your damage on a Charge - and Mythic Charge + Living Ram + Boots of Stampede + Resounding Blow providing even more damage.
Travel Domain with Domain Zealot is used to be able to Swift teleport trough the battlefield to find optimal positions for charging - even every round, when so desired.

Race: Kitsune, obviously.
Mythic path: Intended for Aeon for the bane synergy and the efficiency of spamming many attacks with dispelling effect attached, but should be compatible with most.

Strong points: Good initiative and potential for high Stealth means you're usually able to get the jump on the enemies - often eliminating the most dangerous one. Kinda like an assasin - an actually effective one; High single target damage; High mobility; makes the enemies weak and vulnerable via the Aeon dispells and other abilities.

Not so good: Need to wait till Mythic Rank 2 (around level 8) to get Dex to damage. But a strong pet will help you contribute regardless, by level 5 you can start using Spirited Charge to deliver 1, potentially nasty attack, next level you get access to Bane and soon you start stacking sneak attack bonus damages as well. So it never really felt weak/underperforming.

Stats:
Strenght: 10
Dexterity: 19
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 14
Wisdom: 14
Charisma: 8

For sure a Str version is also possible, but I wanted to try something different. I very much appreciate the high Initiative and skill synergies. Also using Reduce Person is natural to mount a Medium sized mount.

Background: Acolyte.

Level 1: Sanctified Slayer (Gozreh/Erastil, Animal Domain) Weapon Finesse
Level 2: Sanctified Slayer
Level 3: Sanctified Slayer Two Weapon Fighting; Teamwork: Precise Strike
Level 4: Sanctified Slayer: Animal Companion
Level 5: Sohei Monk Boon Companion; Spirited Charge (!)
Level 6: Sanctified Slayer
Level 7: Sanctified Slayer Weapon Focus; Teamwork: Outflank (!)
Level 8: Gendarme (Cockatrice) Improved Two Weapon
Level 9: Gendarme Shatter Defenses; Dazzling Display
Level 10: Gendarme Indomitable Mount
Level 11: Sanctified Slayer Lunge (!)
Level 12: Sanctified Slayer Talent: Combat Trick: Improved Critical
Level 13: Sanctified Slayer Vulpine Pounce (!); Teamwork: Shake it off
Level 14: Sanctified Slayer
Level 15: Sanctified Slayer Greater Two Weapon
Level 16: Sanctified Slayer Teamwork: Allied Spellcaster
Level 17: Sanctified Slayer Destructive Dispel
Level 18: Sanctified Slayer
Level 19: Sanctified Slayer Selective Spell (for Zero State); Teamwork: Back to Back
Level 20: Sanctified Slayer Talent: Combat Style TWF: Double Slice

Aeon
1 Mythic Charge (!)
2 Weapon Finesse Mythic (!)
3 Impossible Domain: Travel (!)
4 Domain Zealot (!)
5 Impossible Domain: Luck. Guess pick Community if you're not using Sosiel with it. EDIT: Or Leading Strikes if using a Velociraptor mount.
6 Improved Critical Mythic
7 Mythical Beast
8 Mythic Two Weapon Fighting / Mythic Improved Initiative
9 Ever Ready


Tabletop Tweaks mod version (with some changes for Velociraptor mount):

Level 1: Sanctified Slayer (Gozreh/Erastil, Animal Domain) Weapon Finesse
Level 2: Sanctified Slayer
Level 3: Sanctified Slayer Two Weapon Fighting; Teamwork: Precise Strike
Level 4: Sanctified Slayer: Animal Companion
Level 5: Sanctified Slayer Boon Companion; [Bane]
Level 6: Sanctified Slayer Teamwork: Outflank (!)
Level 7: Sohei Monk Mounted Combat; Spirited Charge (!)
Level 8: Sanctified Slayer
Level 9: Gendarme (Cockatrice) Improved Two Weapon; Indomitable Mount
Level 10: Sanctified Slayer Talent: Combat Trick: Lunge (!)
Level 11: Gendarme Improved Critical; [Dazzling Display, Braggart]
Level 12: Gendarme Trick Riding; [Cavalier's Charge]
Level 13: Sanctified Slayer Vulpine Pounce (!); Teamwork: Shake it off
Level 14: Sanctified Slayer
Level 15: Sanctified Slayer Mounted Skirmisher
Level 16: Sanctified Slayer Teamwork: Allied Spellcaster
Level 17: Sanctified Slayer Destructive Dispel
Level 18: Sanctified Slayer
Level 19: Sanctified Slayer Greater TWF; Teamwork: Back to Back
Level 20: Sanctified Slayer Talent: Combat Style Power Attack / Piranha Strike

Aeon
1 Mythic Charge (!)
2 Weapon Finesse Mythic (!)
3 Impossible Domain: Travel (!)
4 Domain Zealot (!)
5 Precision Criticals
6 Improved Critical Mythic
7 Leading Strikes/Mythical Beast
8 Mythic Power Attack/Piranha Strike
9 Impossible Domain: Destruction - alternatively Luck or even Community (though at this point you probably don't need it anymore)

Raise Mobility for the pets defenses via Indomitable Mount and Athletics for Charge damage proc with Boots of Stampede. Plus skillchecks. Inquisitor skill bonuses also greatly help with Perception and possibly Persuasion as well.

Weapon: Can use different finessable weapons. I recommend handaxes due to strong uniques and great critical properties (make sure to turn the Rovagug Relic into one). Peacemaker looks particularly nice.
Early on the Mallander's Insult Shortsword can be very nice for a sigificant damage boost for both hands. And of course Hasty Eradicator dagger with 2 bonus attacks is very strong for an offhand. Finnean can be helpful also, of course.
A variant with Traditional Monk dip could be made to make good use of Sais with monk Flurry.

Other notable equipment: Boots of Stampede (for another proc on Charge - alongside Mythic Charge). Living Ram breastplate. Hammer of the Masterpiece. Half of the Pair amulets. Clemency of Shadows Ring, Ring of Imminent Demise. Timely Assistance belt.

Animal Companion: I like leopard a lot. Thank you for the recommendation, Desiderius
Note that as a Kitsune, you need Reduce Person to ride it (possible at level 5).
The smaller your companion is, the less of a nuisance on the front line. And more importantly, the closer to the enemy it will be able to activate a Charge and the less it will be bodyblocked or stuck in geometry. And his early high AC is just great. Later he doesn't need Barding, so has more feat flexibility too.

If you find the need to use Reduce Person a nuisance, go with another, preferably somewhat tanky and not too bulky, companion.

Here are the proposed feats for leopard, defensive focus:
1. Weapon Finesse
2. Fury's Fall
3. Dodge
4. Outflank
5. Improved Unarmed
6. Crane Style
7. Crane Wing
8. Weapon Focus
9. Dazzling Display
10. Shatter Defences

OR offensive focus:
1. Weapon Finesse
2. Fury's Fall
3. Weapon Focus
4. Outflank
5. Dazzling Display
6. Shatter Defences
7. Dodge
8. Improved Unarmed
9. Crane Style
10 Crane Wing

Bully to support the free Trips on with Fury's Fall. It will also need 3 Int for Ouflank and Improved Unarmed Style for Crane Style, so either add 1 point to Int ASAP or have it wear an Int tiara (Bookworm's Headband is nice for the Compulsion immunity).

EDIT:
Lately I'm rather fond of the Velociraptor due to its numerous attacks - and ability to repeatedly trigger rider's Leading Strikes. The cost is much worse starting AC and later mounting. Here is example feat Guide for raptor:
1. Fury's Fall
2. Light Barding
3. Weapon Focus
4. Outflank
5. Dazzling Display
6. Shatter Defences
7. Improved Critical
8. Combat Reflexes
9. Medium Barding
10. Heavy Barding (For Royal Guard Barding - 10d6 damage on charge per hit).

A nice idea, particularly if you have more animal companions in your party, is to either have an Oracle with Nature Mystery and Friend to Animals Revelation - or dip 1 level oracle on a high Charisma character (like Ember, maybe Seelah) for that Revelation. It will greatly boost the saving throws of your pets.

Spoiler

 

[Desiderius]

I usually get Shatter ASAP on tripping pets to help land bites and Trips. Especially good if you can swing Tandem Trip somewhere.

Crane is ok since you can tank with Leopard and you’re already doing enough damage without AoOs. I’ve been getting Daeran Nature Second Mystery with Mount at lvl 7. Tough call but probably good idea to get Friend after that with Mounted Seelah and Lann on Bismuth.

 

[IllusiveBrian]

Dunno if anyone ever noticed this but despite claws dealing bludgeoning and slashing damage, they fall under Fencing Grace as a piercing weapon instead of Slashing Grace.

 

[Desiderius]

Dunno if anyone ever noticed this but despite claws dealing bludgeoning and slashing damage, they fall under Fencing Grace as a piercing weapon instead of Slashing Grace.

Since they count as all three they work with Crusader's Edge, unlike Unarmed/Natural Attacks from players.

 

[Desiderius]

The reason I was comparing BFT20 to EK in the first place was the thing we talked about a couple months ago where I did a melee-focused Oracle, merged it with Angel, then found the the casting outpaced anything I could do even fully optimized attacking so felt like I was nerfing myself doing it, and also wished I had optimized for the casting at that point as well.

But there's another side to that. You can do a melee Lich than can rival the power of Merged casting, but the way to do it is to just use a full martial without merging at all. Martials get a lot of shit to make up for not being able to cast, then you tack casting on to that you can get a different kind of monster. I did this with QStaff Master Angel and was happy with the results. You get the full value from the Mythic spellbook since you're not duplicating any spells as well.

 

[mediocrepoet]

But there's another side to that. You can do a melee Lich than can rival the power of Merged casting, but the way to do it is to just use a full martial without merging at all. Martials get a lot of shit to make up for not being able to cast, then you tack casting on to that you can get a different kind of monster. I did this with QStaff Master Angel and was happy with the results. You get the full value from the Mythic spellbook since you're not duplicating any spells as well.

Yeah that's fair enough. I was actually looking at this (full martial + spellbook) as well. Like I say, I'm basically just glancing at stuff atm and considering it based on what the numbers look like after building it up. If it looks viable enough and fun to me, I'll probably start a campaign with it. Tbh, the only reason I'm even looking at Lich right now is for the extra out of the Inevitable Excess DLC so I can get a full unlock for it.

Either way though, I'm not clueless, I had over 350 hours in Wrath before I put it down to wait out the Owlcats patch cycle and 900 in Kingmaker. (This might be a call for help... )

Anyway, I'd probably just start something if I didn't 1) know how time consuming these games are, 2) hate respecing in RPGs, and 3) know that some stuff that you'd expect to work either doesn't due to mechanics interactions or bugs. At least I find character generation fun and since I can easily push up a max level and MP character to get an idea of what it actually looks like including with gear, it's not a waste of time, even though some of these ideas are better than others. Like I'd have been pissed if I took an arcanist with merged book through the game only to come to the end and realize I had 0 - level 10 spell slots no matter what I did with the build.

 

[Haplo]

I usually get Shatter ASAP on tripping pets to help land bites and Trips. Especially good if you can swing Tandem Trip somewhere.

Crane is ok since you can tank with Leopard and you’re already doing enough damage without AoOs. I’ve been getting Daeran Nature Second Mystery with Mount at lvl 7. Tough call but probably good idea to get Friend after that with Mounted Seelah and Lann on Bismuth.

Between early Crane style and Shatter Defenses, its a clear tradeoff of defense vs offense. I've picked greater safety, but I guess both are valid. And below Hard, going for early Shatter would be even more tempting.

As for Daeran, he's useful early on, but I really love the utility of Sosiel's domains. So in my party he tends to be replaced by Sosiel with domains and Ember with Hexes and long lasting / multiple cast buffs.

 

[Desiderius]

My main run Daeran had Second Mystery Ancestor so he had some of those buffs himself.

Swifts are too clunky currently to get full value out of Sos in RTwP. Daeran or Ember can fill the Unfair Boss Demoralizer role well, but Ember’s a little too unfocused to usually make my team since Daeran can fill Divine role and hard to leave Nenio/Wolj home in lieu of Ember.

Divine MC can maybe free up a slot since both Sos and Daeran have a lot of Feats tied up in things I don’t use much.

 

[Desiderius]

Nature Daeran also gets full Barkskins so can cut Cam at lvl 7, tho lvl 8 Cam is very solid all-around contributor.

Going to try Mythic Finesse Light Shield Basher on Wolf Mount.

 

[Haplo]

Nature Daeran also gets full Barkskins so can cut Cam at lvl 7, tho lvl 8 Cam is very solid all-around contributor.

Going to try Mythic Finesse Light Shield Basher on Wolf Mount.

Can't understand the sense of investing feats in shields on a mounted character.

 

[Desiderius]

Cold vulnerability debuff Shield mostly, but there are some ridiculous bashing Shields later on in general. And mounted characters do get attacked, just less often. Babaus seem to like going after them.

Shield Mastery ends up with high AB as well. Turns on Shield Wall for Greybor if I go that way. We’ll see. Bash, Mastery, Finish, 3 Shatter Feats, Finesse, and Evo Focus. You may be right since I’ll want Mounted Feats as well.

Azata gives out TW feats. Looking forward to seeing if Back to Back is working yet. It requires 3 Perception if you want it on pet.

STR-based only ends up working on Daeran with Frightful, and that doesn’t work with Mounted.

 

[Average Manatee]

Just posting to say that casting defensively checks for spells while in melee seems to work correctly in WotR, as opposed to Kingmaker where it does not (https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...urn-based-combat.125267/page-983#post-7979763). All spells require casting defensively normally, ranged touch attacks always provoke AoOs due to making a ranged attack while in melee. Haven't tested whether point blank master works correctly with ranged touch attacks, also in theory you should be able to provoke 2 AoOs if you make a ranged touch attack and fail a defensive casting check but I haven't checked that.

Also checked casting while mounted and it seems to work the same.

 

[Seari]

I keep seeing "KC" acronym on reddit, what the fuck does it mean? I'm guessing it's like MC - main character? Anyone know?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I keep seeing "KC" acronym on reddit, what the fuck does it mean? I'm guessing it's like MC - main character? Anyone know?

Kingcomrade