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Tacgnol

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I might be in the minority, I'm not sure but I always hated the tedium of pre-buffing before every single fight in any game that featured it as a sort of requirement.


If you are in the minority, the majority has bad taste for sure.
Few things can be universally consider "bad design" but the reliance of some games on pre-buff chains is definitely among them.

I think pre-buffing is fine if the situation realistically calls for it. Party casting protection from energy before entering a monster lair with a particular element. Freedom of movement if expected to be encountering monsters that like to grapple etc.

It feels a bit meta-gamey with short term buffs before a boss fight that's unexpected from character perspective, especially with reloading saves. Obviously if the characters are somehow alerted in character to what's coming up then it's a different situation.

It is meta-gamey, but the real problem with this approach lies elsewhere. In a good tactical combat system, you, as a player, should be tasked with the choice of the right action at the right moment (Is it better to attack o to buff my front-liners? Time for a vicious debuff or for a mass-healing? Etc.)
Allowing players to use pre-buff chains (even worse, informed by meta-game knowledge acquired through death and reload) makes the decision-making process during the actual combat poorer.

One trick that DMs often do on the tabletop (and I've done myself) is a perception check before you're coming up to an encounter.

If the party passes and it's an enemy they've fought before, like flying polyps for example (which make a distinctive wind howling sound when they move), the party gets a clue to what's coming up in the area ahead. That way they could use appropriate spells before hitting the encounter.

Otherwise I agree, pre-buffing with tons of short term buffs on meta knowledge is very CRPG-y. Long term buffs are fine, as that's the whole point of them.
 

Sergiu64

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I might be in the minority, I'm not sure but I always hated the tedium of pre-buffing before every single fight in any game that featured it as a sort of requirement.
If you are in the minority, the majority has bad taste for sure.
Few things can be universally considered "bad design" but the reliance of some games on pre-buff chains is definitely among them.

PoE series took those out with their design of buffs being combat only - but that made vast majority of buffs kinda useless - why waste seconds on casting buffs when the encounter is mostly dead by the time you're finished? So not sure that was a solution either. 5th edition made most buffs take concentration - so they became mostly useless as well: why haste 1 fighter when that means you can't Hypnotic Pattern the encounter instead?

I think 1 system I like was that Camelot MMO - they had this concentration mechanic where the buffer could upkeep SOME buffs at the same time. So they had to pick and choose as to who got buffed and what kind of buffs they got - but you weren't stuck with 1 buff and the buffs weren't fighting for concentration against CC spells or whatever else.
 

Dr Schultz

Augur
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
492
I might be in the minority, I'm not sure but I always hated the tedium of pre-buffing before every single fight in any game that featured it as a sort of requirement.


If you are in the minority, the majority has bad taste for sure.
Few things can be universally consider "bad design" but the reliance of some games on pre-buff chains is definitely among them.

I think pre-buffing is fine if the situation realistically calls for it. Party casting protection from energy before entering a monster lair with a particular element. Freedom of movement if expected to be encountering monsters that like to grapple etc.

It feels a bit meta-gamey with short term buffs before a boss fight that's unexpected from character perspective, especially with reloading saves. Obviously if the characters are somehow alerted in character to what's coming up then it's a different situation.

It is meta-gamey, but the real problem with this approach lies elsewhere. In a good tactical combat system, you, as a player, should be tasked with the choice of the right action at the right moment (Is it better to attack o to buff my front-liners? Time for a vicious debuff or for a mass-healing? Etc.)
Allowing players to use pre-buff chains (even worse, informed by meta-game knowledge acquired through death and reload) makes the decision-making process during the actual combat poorer.

One trick that DMs often do on the tabletop (and I've done myself) is a perception check before you're coming up to an encounter.

If the party passes and it's an enemy they've fought before, like flying polyps for example (which make a distinctive wind howling sound when they move), the party gets a clue to what's coming up in the area ahead. That way they could use appropriate spells before hitting the encounter.

Otherwise I agree, pre-buffing with tons of short term buffs on meta knowledge is very CRPG-y. Long term buffs are fine, as that's the whole point of them.

I'm a DM myself, and I've always used little "tricks" in order to make the preparation phase to an enocounter interesting. I've always felt, though, that I was kinda patching an inherent issue of Dungeons & Dragons (no matter the edition).

I might be in the minority, I'm not sure but I always hated the tedium of pre-buffing before every single fight in any game that featured it as a sort of requirement.
If you are in the minority, the majority has bad taste for sure.
Few things can be universally considered "bad design" but the reliance of some games on pre-buff chains is definitely among them.

PoE series took those out with their design of buffs being combat only - but that made vast majority of buffs kinda useless - why waste seconds on casting buffs when the encounter is mostly dead by the time you're finished? So not sure that was a solution either. 5th edition made most buffs take concentration - so they became mostly useless as well: why haste 1 fighter when that means you can't Hypnotic Pattern the encounter instead?

I think 1 system I like was that Camelot MMO - they had this concentration mechanic where the buffer could upkeep SOME buffs at the same time. So they had to pick and choose as to who got buffed and what kind of buffs they got - but you weren't stuck with 1 buff and the buffs weren't fighting for concentration against CC spells or whatever else.

This is more an issue of balance than anything. A buff SHOULD be a valid alternative to an attack or to any other action you can make in combat. If this is not the case, like in PoE, then the buff is underpowered.
Admittedly, though, this kind of balance is easier to pull off in a turn based game than in a RtwP one.

PS: I'm not updated as I used to be, but I wouldn't say that buffs are useless in 5E. I'm under the impression that 5E contains some of the most powerful buffs in D&D history, especially for Bards and Clerics.
 
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Kaivokz

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Feb 10, 2015
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1,499
It is meta-gamey, but the real problem with this approach lies elsewhere. In a good tactical combat system, you, as a player, should be tasked with the choice of the right action at the right moment (Is it better to attack o to buff my front-liners? Time for a vicious debuff or for a mass-healing? Etc.)
Allowing players to use pre-buff chains (even worse, informed by meta-game knowledge acquired through death and reload) makes the decision-making process during the actual combat poorer.
This is false.

The strategic layer is a huge part of PnP. A campaign where the party blunders into whatever they want and only makes “tactical choices during the actual combat” is massive decline.

It leads to situations like: The party is off to face a vampire, they did no preparation but it’s okay because he happens to keep a stash of wooden stakes in the basement.

If you are off to face a dragon, part of the process should be gathering information and planning accordingly. What element does it use? Acquire some sort of protection to that element, maybe seek out an enchantment designed to fight dragons, etc.

If you’re off to face a stronghold of chaotic assassins, bring some way to detect invisibility, protection from chaos, maybe ways to cure poison, etc.

Choices made on the strategic layer should play into success almost as much as choices made on the tactical layer. But I suppose that requires players to read and to think more than 10 seconds ahead.
 

Dr Schultz

Augur
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
492
It is meta-gamey, but the real problem with this approach lies elsewhere. In a good tactical combat system, you, as a player, should be tasked with the choice of the right action at the right moment (Is it better to attack o to buff my front-liners? Time for a vicious debuff or for a mass-healing? Etc.)
Allowing players to use pre-buff chains (even worse, informed by meta-game knowledge acquired through death and reload) makes the decision-making process during the actual combat poorer.
This is false.

The strategic layer is a huge part of PnP. A campaign where the party blunders into whatever they want and only makes “tactical choices during the actual combat” is massive decline.

It leads to situations like: The party is off to face a vampire, they did no preparation but it’s okay because he happens to keep a stash of wooden stakes in the basement.

If you are off to face a dragon, part of the process should be gathering information and planning accordingly. What element does it use? Acquire some sort of protection to that element, maybe seek out an enchantment designed to fight dragons, etc.

If you’re off to face a stronghold of chaotic assassins, bring some way to detect invisibility, protection from chaos, maybe ways to cure poison, etc.

Choices made on the strategic layer should play into success almost as much as choices made on the tactical layer. But I suppose that requires players to read and to think more than 10 seconds ahead.

Problem is, nothing like that (almost) ever happens in a videogame, due to a totally different gameplay-loop compared to a tabletop RPG. In CRPGs, 99% of the times, you either have meta-knowledges acquired trough death and reload or you don't.

Aside for that, I'm not against pre-buffs per sé. I'm against games that allow long chains of pre-buffs that make trivial supposedly hard encounters.
 
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Sergiu64

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Problem is, nothing like that (almost) ever happens in a videogame, due to a totally different gameplay-loop compared to a tabletop RPG. In CRPGs, 99% of the times, you either have meta-knowledges acquired trough death and reload or you don't.
Aside for that, I'm not against pre-buffs per sé. I'm against games that allow long chains of pre-buffs that makes trivial supposedly hard encounters.

To be fair - a lot of rpgs allowed you to go invisible and explore the place before engaging. Of course when the price you pay is real time that the players will never get back - most opt to skip that and use save/reload to acquire the necessary knowledge instead.
 

Tacgnol

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Problem is, nothing like that (almost) ever happens in a videogame, due to a totally different gameplay-loop compared to a tabletop RPG. In CRPGs, 99% of the times, you either have meta-knowledges acquired trough death and reload or you don't.
Aside for that, I'm not against pre-buffs per sé. I'm against games that allow long chains of pre-buffs that makes trivial supposedly hard encounters.

To be fair - a lot of rpgs allowed you to go invisible and explore the place before engaging. Of course when the price you pay is real time that the players will never get back - most opt to skip that and use save/reload to acquire the necessary knowledge instead.

You don't even need to do that necessarily. Knowledge/perception checks are a good way of informing a party what they're coming up against.

Also keeps the skills useful.
 

Dr Schultz

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Dec 21, 2013
Messages
492
To be fair - a lot of rpgs allowed you to go invisible and explore the place before engaging. Of course when the price you pay is real time that the players will never get back - most opt to skip that and use save/reload to acquire the necessary knowledge instead.

This is 100% true, but you got why this is hardly applicable to an entire videogame campaign: CRPGs, on average, have WAY more combat encounters than tabletop adventures, so a lengthy preparation fase before each fight would be a enormous waste of the player's time. Leaving aside the fact that scouting ahead isn't always a possibility (think, for instance, to all the encounters that are triggered by a conversation).

You don't even need to do that necessarily. Knowledge/perception checks are a good way of informing a party what they're coming up against.

Also keeps the skills useful.

This wouldn't solve the problem entirely. The gameplay loop would become something like that:
If you pass the check, you prepare your party for the encounter, you win the battle and then progress the game;
If you don't pass the check, you don't prepare yourself for the encounter, you die, then reload, then prepare yourself for the encounter with the acquired meta-knowledge , then win, then progress the game.

Wouldn't be better to be able to react mid-battle, using the appropriate buff during the actual combat and winning despite the poor preparation?
 
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Tacgnol

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To be fair - a lot of rpgs allowed you to go invisible and explore the place before engaging. Of course when the price you pay is real time that the players will never get back - most opt to skip that and use save/reload to acquire the necessary knowledge instead.

This is 100% true, but you get way this is hardly applicable to an entire videogame campaign: CRPGs, on average, have WAY more combat encounters than tabletop adventures, so a lengthy preparation fase before each encounter would be a enormous waste of the player's time.

You don't even need to do that necessarily. Knowledge/perception checks are a good way of informing a party what they're coming up against.

Also keeps the skills useful.

This wouldn't solve the problem entirely. The gameplay loop would become something like that:
If you pass the check, you prepare your party for the encounter, you win the battle and progress the game;
If you don't pass the check, you don't prepare yourself for the encounter, you die, then reload, then prepare yourself for the encounter with the acquired meta-knowledge , then win, then progress the game.

Wouldn't be better to be able to react mid-battle, using the appropriate buff during the actual encounter and win despite the poor preparation?

Well really you shouldn't NEED to pre-buff to win, it should just make the fight easier. You should still be able to salvage an encounter that has been blundered into in most cases if you play well during the encounter.

My point about knowledge/perception checks, they can provide a good way for legit pre-buffing without requiring meta knowledge or save scumming.

Obviously those checks can be save scummed as well, but ultimately that's on the player.
 

Dr Schultz

Augur
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Messages
492
To be fair - a lot of rpgs allowed you to go invisible and explore the place before engaging. Of course when the price you pay is real time that the players will never get back - most opt to skip that and use save/reload to acquire the necessary knowledge instead.

This is 100% true, but you get way this is hardly applicable to an entire videogame campaign: CRPGs, on average, have WAY more combat encounters than tabletop adventures, so a lengthy preparation fase before each encounter would be a enormous waste of the player's time.

You don't even need to do that necessarily. Knowledge/perception checks are a good way of informing a party what they're coming up against.

Also keeps the skills useful.

This wouldn't solve the problem entirely. The gameplay loop would become something like that:
If you pass the check, you prepare your party for the encounter, you win the battle and progress the game;
If you don't pass the check, you don't prepare yourself for the encounter, you die, then reload, then prepare yourself for the encounter with the acquired meta-knowledge , then win, then progress the game.

Wouldn't be better to be able to react mid-battle, using the appropriate buff during the actual encounter and win despite the poor preparation?

Well really you shouldn't NEED to pre-buff to win, it should just make the fight easier. You should still be able to salvage an encounter that has been blundered into in most cases if you play well during the encounter.

My point about knowledge/perception checks, they can provide a good way for legit pre-buffing without requiring meta knowledge or save scumming.

Obviously those checks can be save scummed as well, but ultimately that's on the player.

On this we are 100% in agreement. In fact, my initial post was against games that over-rely on pre-buff chains, not against pre-buffs per se.

In the system that I "design" in my spare time, for instance, I made buffs very powerful, and lasting, but I limited them in two-ways: 1) They don't stack, so only the highest value counts 2) Magic equipment aside (which is quite rare anyway), a character can have only 2 buffs active at the same time, one coming from potions and one coming from spells.

Right now, I'm quite satisfied with the result. Buffs aren't remotely game breaking but they retain their usefulness both in a tactical and in a strategical standpoint (A.K.A. they are useful before and during the actual combat).
 
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Delterius

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Entre a serra e o mar.
I don't like models... wowylike, I willl have to play it zoomed out...
The graphics style has been the weakest part in the last game, as well.
At least they are consistent.

Yeah it's hard to take demons and monsters seriously as forces of unspeakable evil when they just look like adorable pokemon you wanna cuddle to death.
61mnSzU94qL._AC_SL1200_.jpg
 

MrMarbles

Cipher
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Messages
438
Looks like another bust. Played through Kingmaker but missed a more mature tone. Why do all the creatures have to look like shiny action figures for 4-year olds, and all the spell effects like the scene transitions on America's Got Talent??
 

Axioms

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Developer
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I like how the people in this thread have finally accepted that TTRPG systems don't work good in CRPGs. good job kiddos.
 

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