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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Owlcat's next Pathfinder RPG - now in BETA

Discussion in 'Owlcat Games' started by purpleblob, Nov 27, 2019.

  1. sorinmask Just like Yves, I chase tales. Patron

    sorinmask
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    I believe those Bald Hill sequences act as hard gates. It is very important for a game designer to know where the player is at, in specific moments of the game. BG 2 had them too, for example, they were just less obvious.
     
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  2. Sweeper Magister Zionist Agent

    Sweeper
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    I agree, the time limits should have been way more strict.
     
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  3. mediocrepoet Arcane Patron

    mediocrepoet
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    Codex 2012 MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
    Yeah, that's possibly a reasonable point. I think there are far better ways to introduce them if you're meaning challenges to test a party.
     
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  4. Delterius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Delterius
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    the only time you HAVE to go back to the capital is when the bald hilltop curse starts hitting and even so you still have a week to go, provided you can contact the capital and tell them to move against the monsters that are pouring out of it

    in every other instance, the game is waiting at your convenience and just letting you know there's gonna be content at the capital when you return
     
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  5. sorinmask Just like Yves, I chase tales. Patron

    sorinmask
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    No. I meant, as a game designer it is very helpful to know exactly where the player is at a certain moment in space and time. Having a hot spot a click away from their hub, makes it considerably easier.

    I'm not defending Owlcat here. If anything, it's obvious that it is their first game. Just saying the method is very convenient.
     
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  6. InD_ImaginE Arcane Patron

    InD_ImaginE
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    I feel like people are overstating the importance of time limit vs rest in Kingmaker.

    While the time limit does limit rest somewhat, post the first 2 chapters where your lack of numerical advantage and short buff duration necessitating more rest, I truly feel under no pressure to reduce resting due to the moving time. After buffs last for 6+ minutes you can probably clear an area in 3 - 4 rests top which is more than enough time given by the game.

    Edit: I usually finish an area in 2 rest tops. But I can see needing 3 or 4 I guess that would probably more than enough rest for a single area
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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  7. sorinmask Just like Yves, I chase tales. Patron

    sorinmask
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    The purpose of the time limit is to snap newbies out of their stupor of casually doing a full rest for +1 attribute heal. It also keeps early game harder if you pack less than 3 party members (meaning 2 or solo). Essentially, the idea is to not disrespect the game and have fun. And if you solo (or MC + Jaethal) after you get the Heart of Ira, you don't really need to rest anymore.
     
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  8. Xamenos Cipher Patron

    Xamenos
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Unless you are a complete and total imbecile you are never in any danger of outright failing a chapter due to the time limits. The true cost is kingdom management. The more time you spend clearing areas, the less time you have to upgrade your kingdom stats and get the good artisan gear.
     
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  9. InD_ImaginE Arcane Patron

    InD_ImaginE
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    Yeah I do agree somewhat the more rest = less time in Kingdom Management, but at that point it's already in optimization and optional objective territory. The game is in noway require you to have heavily advanced kingdom to be finished and you can survive by doing just enough. Artisan is nice but once again their items are not really needed to finish the game normally. People are talking the rest limitation is on Swordflight level or something which it isn't.

    I guess yeah resting for any number of small damage is discouraged. And if you start playing solo/duo/trio whatever, turning off exp sharing off etc, it is already outside how the "normal game balance" is designed for (the game is designed with exp sharing on and full party) then all discussion is out of the window.

    Within paramter of normal gameplay the rest is more than enough for you to dilly dally.
     
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  10. Xamenos Cipher Patron

    Xamenos
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Well, yes. That's what's great about KM's timers, they're almost wholly carrot. The stick is in people's heads. And this always amuses me when people complain about them.
     
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  11. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
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    Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    If you try to "finish" the game without Artisan gear/upgrades the game will feel shitty because so much of the design is gated behind it. That's where all the "X weapon type isn't supported!" stuff is coming from.

    At the end of the day the intended play pattern was to sit in the capital ranking stuff up until you accumulate enough quests in an area to justify an excursion. You do your exploring naturally as part of that process. Not open world not intended to be. Game goes a lot faster that way too. Gimped items + aimless wandering = game feels too long.

    The rewards that other games give for exploration are given here for developing the Kingdom and that was by design at cross purposes with randomly wandering around. People who never figured that out Plus never figured out how to manage travel/fatigue are the ones complaining about timers. The change in Wrath will be making these sorts of trade-offs more explicit since people raised on faceroll aren't familiar with making them.
     
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  12. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
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    Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    At least part of that is on the design. Given how lenient/upside oriented they were people complaining about them didn't so much suck at the game as not even understand what game they were playing.

    Having just beaten my head against the Dungeon of Secrets (M&M IX) last night I can sympathize.
     
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  13. Dishonoredbr Savant

    Dishonoredbr
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    The Timers in first game were fine. I just thought it was bullshit that some quests doesn't have timers so you don't know if you can do mainquest and leave side before last part of chapter or it's better to do side stuff first. IIRC i lost one or two quests by this. They just need to make more clear that some quest are locked to chapter.

    Also i'm still salty that i lost a good two hours trying enter varnhold but i couldn't because i had to wait a certain event (a letter) but no info when would happen..
     
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  14. Tyrr Educated

    Tyrr
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    I like the way Persona games do it.
    Free time = reward for being good in combat/dungeon running. You feel rewarded for not having to rest all the time and doing stuff in an optimal manner. Time is a valuable resource.
     
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  15. Nm6k Novice

    Nm6k
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    I thought that is game's version of the timer would be the demon army's that would come after your main base
     
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  16. Lawntoilet Cipher

    Lawntoilet
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    You do have to achieve a number of Crusade objectives every week to keep your Crusade stats from tanking. Obviously the game isn't complete enough to fully know what the consequences are yet for having good or bad Crusade stats, but it's reasonable to assume that good stats will give you better outcomes.
     
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  17. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
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    Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Has direct effect on morale of combat troops similar to HoMM (extra atk for high fleeing for low).
     
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  18. Xamenos Cipher Patron

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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Does it affect the RPG part of the game in any way though? Something like the artisans of KM?
     
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  19. Lawntoilet Cipher

    Lawntoilet
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    I don't think the Crusade stats affect that, but yes, the artisan/crafting system in this game is part of crusade management.
    Generally you find some artifact in the game somewhere, then you get a project card that lets you choose from several options for crafting that artifact into something.
     
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  20. Xamenos Cipher Patron

    Xamenos
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Major incline right there.
     
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  21. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
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    Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    And of course the higher your troop morale the easier it is to defeat the major demon armies defending those artifacts.
     
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  22. CaesarCzech Learned

    CaesarCzech
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    Like Owlcat are retarded. ARE THEY FUCKING KIDDING ME ?

    There was such an easy solution, Make timers extendable for resources or in case of you having done certain thing like quest or doing certain specific thing. Like why im not given option to hire mercenaries to fight trolls costing me money but increasing the timer ? Why im not give option to use for example the Hellknight order (not the cringy one the one that is aligment locked and obscure) fight Armags hordes giving me extended time ?. Or have Vordkai if you recruited him figure out something that will slow the season of bloom timer, Like are you telling me lich that was literally ruler of massive empire is not capable of slowing down buch of ravenous plants ? have timer but have it natural rather than time gate.
    That way timer is logical because you cant sit on your ass forever with game just freezing time but its not hard limit of you have 90 days no more, it basically integrates cost/opportunity. you need more time to do stuff ? you can if you sacriface some other stuff such as resources.

    Like that way it helps atmosphere because you have to solve that problem sooner or later but you can actually take action as ruler not just as an adventurer.
     
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  23. Shadenuat Arcane

    Shadenuat
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    It would be good for old timers but current one was changed to be so much more generous anyway that you don't need to slow down anything.

    Also they already stated multiple times that there will be some kind of new management for you to not just sit on your ass, timers or no timers.
     
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  24. CaesarCzech Learned

    CaesarCzech
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    i get it, its just i cant figure out how they didnt get this idea of basically allowing your ruler actions to extend timers even if you had to deal with it as adventurer.
     
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  25. Shadenuat Arcane

    Shadenuat
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    They probably coded events around particular dates and stuff and it would mess it all up.

    Look how long it took to fix them Bokken quest.
    ...it is fixed right?
     
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