[PFKM] Do spellcasters need spell penetration?

[Trashos]

Freedom of Movement protects against Paralyzation. Holy Aura protects against Mind-Affecting effects. And Echolocation lets you ignore concealment, even if it doesn't protect against Gazes (thanks Desiderius).

Those are 3 buffs (and, I repeat, you need 6 of each in Ch7), and they still don't do everything Blindfight does. I will take Blindfight.

How do you deal with enemies in your backline engaging all casters at once, or AOE attacks like the Spawn's?

Do not know what the Spawn is.
My backline is protected by a backline tank (Harrim or similar), sometimes 2 depending on what I expect.

In the general case, and certainly when I am expecting nasty spells coming my way, my party is 2 units (tanks and backline). It can be 3 units in certain situations, but not if I can help it. Other times they can all be together. Shake it Off is a major boost to all saves, and if even you do not manage to get the +4 boost, at the very least +2 is easy to get.

My main argument is that your question is wrong.

Eh, no, the question is perfectly correct and complete. The answer we can debate. Anyway, semantics.

The list of enemies against which Spell Penetration works is useful, but to get a real answer we must start elsewhere. First, you need to decide: What does your character want to do? If he DOESN'T want to be casting spells affected by Spell Resistance, then the answer is easy. He doesn't need Penetration feats, end of discussion. But if he DOES want to cast such spells, then we need to start talking about opportunity cost. What does your character gain by taking those feats? The benefit that he can use those spells when fighting against those enemies (and it is not an irrelevant benefit at all. In the Siroket fight, for example, you need a way to deal with the Erinyes fast, before they decimate your party from afar). What does he lose? Whatever benefit he would get by picking some other feat over Penetration.

I never have issues with the Erinyes on Hard (Siroket is a different matter), a combination of Ekun+Jubilost+1tank targetting them (plus maybe protection from arrows for my backline) seems to solve the issue. But sure, I wouldn't mind it if damaging AoE spells actually hit them, it could solve the problem quicker.

There are 2 issues here. What is the answer to the thread title question for a veteran and what is the answer for a newbie. I expect the veterans to answer this question for themselves once they have the SR list. For the newbies I gave the advice that I would like to have heard when I was a newbie: Do not sweat over Penetration, take it if you have nothing tastier to take. I am perfectly happy with the way the OP is worded, and I believe that it achieves all its goals (for the base game, at least).

That said, us veterans can debate whether X or Y plan is actually better. To me it looks like Penetration is not required, "it is nice to have", but with the caveat that certain enemies will be harder to hit with SR spells without it. If you think this doesn't fit your plans, then fine, take all the Penetration you want. To me it does not look like an issue that I can't work around very easily.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I do not know whether I am a newbie or not, but when my lovely Octavia cannot pierce through spell resistance with her rays I am taking Spell Penetration first time it is available. It is as simple as that.

 

[Xamenos]

Those are 3 buffs (and, I repeat, you need 6 of each in Ch7), and they still don't do everything Blindfight does. I will take Blindfight

You only need 6x Freedom of Movement. Less if you, say, have an item that gives it permanently. Holy Aura is, well, an Aura and affects the entire party. And Echolocation can be skipped for anyone but your heavy hitters who are gonna deal with the few enemies with concealment. I consider a feat far more valuable than them.

For the newbies I gave the advice that I would like to have heard when I was a newbie: Do not sweat over Penetration, take it if you have nothing tastier to take.

This is the exact opposite advice I would give to a newbie who is going to run into trouble adjusting his tactics for different fights. My advice would be: Read what spells you're using. If they have "Spell Resistance: Yes" written on the description, then take both Spell Penetration feats. If not, then don't

To me it looks like Penetration is not required, "it is nice to have", but with the caveat that certain enemies will be harder to hit with SR spells without it.

This is still the wrong way to think about it. No feat is required. (Except for those needed to qualify for a prestige class) All feats are nice to have. It's all about the benefit and opportunity cost of each. Though I suspect this is not something we wil lagree on.

I do not know whether I am a newbie or not, but when my lovely Octavia cannot pierce through spell resistance with her rays I am taking Spell Penetration first time it is available. It is as simple as that.

Remarkably, this is the correct way to think about it. You have identified what you want your spellcaster to do (spam Rays), what problems she's gonna run into when doing it (Spell Resistance) and how to overcome them (Spell Penetration). Anything else is overthinking it.

 

[Desiderius]

Trash doesn’t care. He’s got his theory and he’s not letting mere facts get in the way.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I just really like Octavia and Regongar.

 

[Trashos]

I am trying to be nice here, but it does not look you guys understand any math. And I am sure Xamenos does, so his stance is very peculiar.

 

[Xamenos]

I just really like Octavia and Regongar.

Octavia is a thot, but I acknowledge her usefulness in battle. And Reg is a bro, even to a Lawful Good baron. I really enjoy their arc if you do their quest right.

I am trying to be nice here, but it does not look you guys understand any math. And I am sure Xamenos does, so his stance is very peculiar.

I have studied math. I understand how to use math. But more importantly, I understand when to use math. Math is a tool. A very useful tool. But like all tools, it should not be applied to everything thoughtlessly. Hammer, nails, and all that. And, of course, it is a tool very, very easy to misuse.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Octavia is a thot

That's why I like her. And I want my favourite companion who is always in the party to be as efficient as possible.

After all, I am playing a role playing game, no matter how strange it sounds.

 

[Trashos]

Xamenos
Yes, I have indeed seen that you know math when you talked about when increased to-hit chances actually help most. (this is not ironic)
I have even seen mathematicians get that one wrong.

OK, so let's get down to business, to the "facts".
Pick any fight in the base game you wish, and we can explore the difference Spell Penetration will make.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Pick any fight in the base game you wish, and we can explore the difference Spell Penetration will make.

Vordakai's tomb, Astradaemons. Octavia as the only arcane caster, Jaethal and Tristian as clerics. The rest are melee.

 

[Trashos]

Vordakai's tomb, Astradaemons. Octavia as the only arcane caster, Jaethal and Tristian as clerics. The rest are melee.

Fine by me.

1) What offensive spells does your plan involve?

2) What level are we? I will assume lvl13, unless there are objections.

3) I am going to use Astradaemon's stats from here:
https://pathfinderkingmaker.gamepedia.com/Astradaemon
Again, unless there are objections.

 

[LannTheStupid]

1) What spells does your plan involve?

Single target nukes for Octavia, debuffs, buffs for clerics. May be summons from Jaethal.

2) What level are we? I will assume lvl13, unless there are objections.

Level 12. I have no idea what I have missed to have such a low level. Probably a lot.

3) I am going to use Astradaemon's stats from here:

Looks OK.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Spoiler

You seem to have an odd sort of venom against pertinent, if general information.

If a spell school has 0-1% spells utilizing DC, it means feats improving the DC of that school are exceedingly likely to have marginal utility. It also strongly indicates that the schools have little to no offensive capability. I can also suggest that the spells schools aren't as robustly supported. This list even displays the quantity of spells at what spell level ranges. This breakdown shows that ,Conjuration, with only 6% using DC, has more spells more evenly distributed across all levels than Abjuration and Divination combined. That's a useful indicator when creating a character. The elemental breakdown even shows which spells by level use which element. That's even more useful. None of the information presented is incorrect. The whole point of the list is to demonstrate cost analysis of feats which increase DC. "Bang for buck". It's a quantitative, not qualitative analysis. Know the distinction.

Anyway, I'm definitely going to bow out at this point. The list itself a very foolish thing to debate, and an overall derailment of the thread.

My venom is reserved for idiots who mistake meaningless numbers for meaningful information. 3.5 and Pathfinder discussions are rife with them, and my patience has long since run out.

A school that has 0.01% spells with DC is STILL worth taking a Spell Focus for if those few spells are ones you actually use. A school with 99.99% spells with DC is NOT worth taking a Spell Focus for if you never actually cast those spells. A number can be correct and useless at the same time, and that fucking percentage is the perfect example.

I was naive to think I was going to bow out, but this is kind of amusing.

The quantitative analysis sought to demonstrate which schools and elements most benefited from Focus feats. It made no judgement on which spells were best. It shows conclusively that Abjuration & Divination benefit exceedingly little from focus feats, while Necromancy, Evocation, Enchantment and Fire spells benefit the most for focus feats. It doesn't offer any advice about not picking focus feats in Divination or Abjuration...It's not qualitative. It just shows that the benefit to those schools is almost non-existent. Not coincidentally, that's factually the case in PFKM. I'm not sure how this correct information disturbs you, or will mislead players.

 

[LannTheStupid]

It made no judgement on which spells were best.

This is why it is pointless. However, I am not going to repeat one resident mathematician. He has said everything.

Actually, it's even better. You have chosen a perfect example yourself.

Necromancy, Evocation, Enchantment and Fire spells benefit the most for focus feats.

Dead things are almost immune to Necromancy. Branded Trolls are immune to fire no matter how high is DC. And Wild Hunt has Will as one of the strongest saves, so an Enchantment specialist dies in the end game. Or stops casting. And this is only from enemy metaknowledge, not even touching the spells themselves.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

You're making valuation judgements beyond that scope of that analysis LannTheStupid . Overcome your moniker and think for a moment.

Question: Which spell schools and elements most utilize DC; therefore, benefit most from Spell Focus feats?
Findings: Evocation, Necromancy, Enchantment, and Fire spells utilize DC the most. Abjuration and Divination the least.
Non-Sequitar: bbbbutttt, that's misleading! Maybe the player doesn't like casting fireball! Fireball isn't the best spell! Some trolls are immune. There are no other enemies in this game except branded trolls! Your best feats are for the spells you use! This will confuse a player and cause them to ruin their build! Maybe they really like casting Prediction of Failure in the late game!?

 

[Trashos]

2) What level are we? I will assume lvl13, unless there are objections.

Level 12. I have no idea what I have missed to have such a low level. Probably a lot.

It could be 12, I am not sure. I have noted down that I am lvl13 AFTER V's Tomb, but I do not remember at exactly what point I become lvl13. I will go with lvl12 then.

I also need your Octavia's DEX bonus at that point (to calculate ranged touch attacks probability). Is +5 OK?

 

[LannTheStupid]

I also need your Octavia's DEX bonus at that point. Is +5 OK?

Probably DEX +4 will be better. INT is +5 or even +6 - she is a Magister, after all.

Which spell schools and elements most utilize DC

This is a valid theoretical question.

therefore, benefit most from Spell Focus feats?

And this logical link is false. In practice, there is no logical connection between the DC utilization of the school and necessity to spend Spell Focus. Imagine that.

Why - scroll up and read.

 

[Desiderius]

1) What spells does your plan involve?

Single target nukes for Octavia, debuffs, buffs for clerics. May be summons from Jaethal.

2) What level are we? I will assume lvl13, unless there are objections.

Level 12. I have no idea what I have missed to have such a low level. Probably a lot.

3) I am going to use Astradaemon's stats from here:

Looks OK.

Lvl 12 is normal. Hit 13 via the reward for killing him usually. 12 is a nice level since all the leveling buffs tick up.

 

[Desiderius]

Xamenos
Yes, I have indeed seen that you know math when you talked about when increased to-hit chances actually help most. (this is not ironic)
I have even seen mathematicians get that one wrong.

OK, so let's get down to business, to the "facts".
Pick any fight in the base game you wish, and we can explore the difference Spell Penetration will make.

I already did this.

Do you ignore my work because your inferiority pains you too greatly?

 

[Trashos]

I already did this.

Do you ignore my work because your inferiority pains you too greatly?

Where?!

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

LannTheStupid Now you're into semantics. Last recourse of the failed argument. Delightful.

Question: Which spell schools and elements most utilize DC; therefore, most utilize Focus feats?
Findings: Evocation, Necromancy, Enchantment, and Fire spells utilize DC the most. Abjuration and Divination the least.
Non-Sequitar: bbbutttt some spells don't use DC!!!

 

[LannTheStupid]

Which spell schools and elements most utilize DC; therefore, most utilize Focus feats?

I see no logical connection here. You do you, no problem.

 

[Xamenos]

therefore

You are too stupid to understand how logic works, what this word means, and that this is what we object to.

Also, LannTheStupid, I am not actually a mathematician, though I have studied and work in a very related field. In the interest of not doxxing myself I would prefer to not reveal exactly it is.

 

[Desiderius]

Which spell schools and elements most utilize DC; therefore, most utilize Focus feats?

I see no logical connection here. You do you, no problem.

Furry Logic

 

[LannTheStupid]

Furry Logic

Kitsune-hime kawaii desu! Nyaa!