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Philosophy of Computer Role Playing Games, Part One.

Section8

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Since we seem to have a good deal of support for this idea over in !HyPeRbOy!'s thread, here's the first step on our odyssey of discovery. Read on.

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Philosophy of Computer Role Playing Games, Part One.

Probably the most contentious point to be bandied around in the discussion of Role Playing Games (RPGs) is the notion of what actually constitutes a "Role Playing Game." It's the eternal question the bespectacled denizens that haunt parents' basements around the world ask themselves, every time they roll a many-sided die, or as they cry themselves to sleep, wondering why the ladies aren't impressed by their +4 modifier to charisma.

While Pen and Paper role-playing essentially remains "true" to it's fundamental roots, the Computer Role Playing Game (CRPG) undergoes constant evolution along with the technological advance of its medium. Drastically different design principles coexist within a single genre boundary, and the breadth of the users who would willingly label themselves Role Playing Gamers has expanded and diversified.

So wherein lies the common ground? Is it reasonable to expect that a subset of games all bearing the title "CRPG" should conform to a certain standard? What exactly should a developer be striving for when they decide "We're going to make a CRPG?" Consensus on such a broad and subjective topic is pretty unlikely, so instead, this series of articles aims to:

  • Collate a range of thoughtful opinions on the matter in the form of definitions.
  • Throw said opinions to the lions, and discuss the relative merits.
  • Discuss the implications of striving for a common ground.
  • ...and perhaps, discuss that common ground with relation to realistically incorporating it into a game product.

The first step on the journey is the definition, and so we throw over a series of questions to an open discussion panel and present the better responses. The questions are as follows:

What do you believe is the common perception of what constitutes a CRPG?

What are your own philosophies on the matter?

To what degree does that philosophy actively define your enjoyment of a CRPG?

What challenges should the game present to a player, and how integral should they be to the role playing elements?

Where do you see the "evolution" of CRPGs headed?

What direction would you take if you had a controlling stake?

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Okay, so this thread constitutes the beginnings of "Part One - Collate a range of thoughtful opinions on the matter in the form of definitions." What I'd like to see at this stage are answers to the six questions as they relate specifically to you. This thread should be simply a statement of your own opinion rather than discussion of the other posters' ideas. That will come at a later stage.

I'd like to see as much diversity of opinion as possible, and the responses that get collated into the final article will be judged on how well the ideas are articulated, without bias toward any hivemind ideal.

So what are you waiting for? Copy and paste those questions and get cracking!
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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What do you believe is the common perception of what constitutes a CRPG?

How common are we talking about? 'cause I've got some quotes here....
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic ... &start=150

What are your own philosophies on the matter?

Being able to create and develop a logically fitting character,
Being able to play in a manner fitting that character using that character's skills & abilities
Being able to make meaningful plot-affecting choices in a reactive gameworld

To what degree does that philosophy actively define your enjoyment of a CRPG?

Being an arrogant fuck, I don't consider anything else a CRPG. I do enjoy action or adventure games, so a bad RPG doesn't necessarily mean a bad game for me.

What challenges should the game present to a player, and how integral should they be to the role playing elements?

A lack of challenge may easily ruin an otherwise decent game, as KOTOR 2 so nicely illustrated, so a game should remain challenging at all times. What challenges? Whatever fits game mechanics and skill sets.

Where do you see the "evolution" of CRPGs headed?

True CRPGs are quickly evolving out of the mainstream. I'm much more interested in indie games like Prelude and that new Eschalon game (those 3 screens speak volumes and show thoughts and promise which is more than could be said about Oblivion bland screens) than in the mainstream crap.

So-called RPGs are quickly evolving out of the PC market, leaving more room for indie games, so good fucking riddance. Obsidian is working on 3 announced games, according to job postings. All 3 are PC and console. 'Nuff said. Same goes for Bio and Bethesda.

What direction would you take if you had a controlling stake?

Indie is the way to go. That's the only way to get a controlling stake. As for where, see my definition. It's not a rocket science.
 

Data4

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What do you believe is the common perception of what constitutes a CRPG?

(Edit- I misread the question) Running around on horseback killing things with swords...? I think the common perception of what constitutes a CRPG is whatever a developer defines it as for their own game. Eventually, a cult-like following will form, and a hive mind will take over, staunchly defending that definition for no other reason that sycophance (if that's even a word)

What are your own philosophies on the matter?

A game in which your character's attributes, abilities, skills, etc. are defined by statistics that remove the chance of metagaming. The results of most any situation will be determined by these stats. Where the player comes in is in the making of strategic decisions based on those stats.

Simple example: Character Garth has a low to nil lockpicking skill but excels in brute strength. Does he attempt to pick a lock or bash it with his warhammer?

I believe in an almost anal retentive adherance to the above. It's an equalizer. If battles are won, doors are unlocked, loot is gained, hearts are broken, etc. because the player is a regular pinball wizard with his mouse and Nostromo gaming keypad, it's not a roleplaying game.

To what degree does that philosophy actively define your enjoyment of a CRPG?

Based on the above, I expect certain limitations. Not every character build can accomplish the same thing. If I feel like the game is treating me with a kind of Politically Correct sense of being able to accomplish anything, it takes away from the significance of reaching a mid-level goal. I mean, so what if I've worked my way to the top of the Mage's guild? I'm already the head of the Fighters and Dark Brotherhood, so big whoop!

That sort of thing brings me out of the immersion, which does have importance despite how much we lampoon the ESF's general consensus on it. So, to answer the quation, I want my character to be limited in his or her abilities in a balanced way, in order for me to derive pleasure out of making decisions based on those limitations and watching the results of those decisions unfold for good or bad.

What challenges should the game present to a player, and how integral should they be to the role playing elements?

I sound like a broken record, but it's the stats, baby. The stats. A game should present the player opportunities to decide if they want to take on something that, stat for stat, is likely to destroy them. It's the whole action/consequence thing. Levelled monsters are great if you want a pure exploration game, but there needs to be a damn good reason why, for example, none of the villagers want to go into that dark patch of forest. If you go to Teh Forest of Teh Doom OMG! as a level 2 and the only thing you see is a few level 2-3 scribs running around, it's not so scary now, is it? That's just one example. I may expand on it later, but you get the idea.

Where do you see the "evolution" of CRPGs headed?

Dangerous question at the Codex, but in all honestly, I see it taking the path of least resistance with the market. I've said it before, the business decision to dumb games down so they're more twitch oriented is sound for making profit. As much as we all want game makers to exist to make kickass games, their primary goal in existence is to make a profit. If hard core roleplayers only amount to a niche group, it's hard to make money pleasing them while neglecting the money pool that is the 10-18 year old range. So, games will continue to look fantastic, with all the shader effects, physics modelling, high dynamic range lighting, etc. you can think of... but the substance be insubstantial. I'll leave it at that.

What direction would you take if you had a controlling stake?

Honestly? As a capitalist, I would do exactly what they're doing now-- feed the masses of dumbasses. Make the fools spend their money for superficial junk that looks pretty, while enforcing a No Return policy. Meanwhile, sit back, fire up a cigar, and rake in the dough.

Now, if money wasn't an object? Hmm... well, the first thing I'd do is market research. I'd find the OTHER half of Bethesda's focus group-- the ones who COULD find Caius-- and find out what they like in a game. :D Seriously. I lament the fact that games are losing the appeal for the intelligencia by allowing idiots into the club, and the first thing I'd try to fix is the overall intelligence level of CRPGs even if it means stupid people are disenfranchised. (Yeah, I really, really hate stupid people).

It's quick, it's dirty, and most of all.... it's my opinion.

EDIT 7-3-2020: Why is this suddenly getting attention 14 years later?!?
 
Last edited:

Whipporowill

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What do you believe is the common perception of what constitutes a CRPG?

To your average "gamer" - stats and levelling and possible some sort of mostly linear story you progress through.

What are your own philosophies on the matter?

Being able to adapt the gaming experience to your character - Choosing (and being allowed to choose) in which way to tackle problems set to you by the game by utilizing skills, dialogue or environment so that it fits the character you play. Having choices impact on the story, and the game react to your character based on said choices.

To what degree does that philosophy actively define your enjoyment of a CRPG?

Amount of freedom in playing style and world-character-world reaction pretty much takes the cake.

What challenges should the game present to a player, and how integral should they be to the role playing elements?

Defining a set of "tools" (skills, environment, interaction) with which your character can overcome said challenges/obstacles in a matter most fitting (or possibly, to an extent intuitive) to your character. Making the game make you make choices - and in that way getting to "know" your character.

Where do you see the "evolution" of CRPGs headed?

More glitz than gameplay. Superficial usage of choice, alignment and reputation (Fable) as to not "confuse" players. I don't see the industry taking any chances anytime soon.

What direction would you take if you had a controlling stake?

I investigated a certain license I wanted to work with, and now know who holds it. I'm certain I could turn it into an interesting free-roaming crpg with enough time, manpower and funds. The only question is - would I make a buck? I envisioned I'd go for the German and Polish markets if I got a publishing deal, otherwise all cybersphere indie.
 

Zomg

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What do you believe is the common perception of what constitutes a CRPG?

Progressible statistics and loot. That's essentially the payload of RPG as a marketing label.

What are your own philosophies on the matter?

Ah, I'm vaporlocked on this. I get hung up on trying to find a common thread between the most extreme species of RPG and by trying not to exclude the more primitive early RPGs. I'm not that protective of the term, either, so my sense of it runs to the very broad rather than the particular.

I agree with the common sentiment that good P&P RPGs are the holy grail, with CRPGs being a mass-producible lesser offshoot. That's not to denigrate CRPGs; "Good P&P", at least in adult form, is indescribably rare, something which one has to be incredibly fortunate to find and very diligent - and even talented - to maintain, and contrary to the aphorism bad P&P is not better than a good CRPG.

To what degree does that philosophy actively define your enjoyment of a CRPG?

RPG criticism has a small but relevant impact on my appreciation of games, although typically only for games that I find only moderately involving on their own terms.

What challenges should the game present to a player, and how integral should they be to the role playing elements?

I know what you're getting at, but I have a hard time separating the two intellectually. Even in real life game and not-game bleeds together.

Where do you see the "evolution" of CRPGs headed?

Corporate RPGs will keep getting dumber as budgets keep increasing, and MMOs are headed for a production value rugby scrum that will bleed off most of the stat- and build-heads from the genre that haven't left already. Indie/subcorporate RPGs will be able to make hay just by evoking "golden age" RPGs for while, but I don't know where they'll progress matters.

What direction would you take if you had a controlling stake?

I'm tired of hearing myself say it, but emergent gameplay and procedural content.
 

GhanBuriGhan

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Section8 said:
What do you believe is the common perception of what constitutes a CRPG?
Obviously there is no clear cut definition any more, what is left are elements. The more RPG elements a game has, the more it will be perceived as a RPG. Some such elemensts are (in very loose order of importance):

- Character progression
- Quest like narrative structures (as opposed to mere level or map progression)
- Different approaches to game problems (e.g. the classic fighter - mage - stealth triumvirate)
- A somewhat open gameworld to explore
- Elements of world simulation (e.g. cause and effect, a social framework of the world)
- A certain breadth and depth of interaction with the world (player directed dialogue, manipulating objects, various skills or capabilities that determine how you can interact with the world)
- A combat model influenced by character skills as opposed to purely player skills
- An overarching story or narrative
What are your own philosophies on the matter?
An ideal roleplaying game to me grants me as much freedom as possible in my interaction with the world, and reacts realistically to my choices regarding these interactions. Being a game and not a simulator, I also expect that it presents an entertaining and interesting path through the game, a narrative. It allows me to define and play a character of my own imagining, and supports that choice by meaningfully translating it into game mechanics. Just like a good P&P session I expect a good CRPG to transport me mentally into the gameworld - and for game mechanics to support that experience instead of getting in the way of it.

To what degree does that philosophy actively define your enjoyment of a CRPG?
I find that immersion and freedom have a big impact on my enjoyment. The first leads to a general preference for first person games ("through my own eyes"), the second to a preference for freeform and/or nonlinear games. I also like to have great feedom to form my character, play it in the world, and receive appropriate feedback from the game. However if other elements are really strong I can still find a game very enjoyable although it may be lacking in many other ways (e.g. I really enjoyed the story in KOTOR, despite its weaknesses in RPG mechanics and the linear and restricted world).

What challenges should the game present to a player, and how integral should they be to the role playing elements?
A key word is diversity. Unlike shooters or adventures RPG's challenges should come on many levels: Riddles, tough fights, using smarts to avoid fights, using your charactes skils to your advantage, social interaction, moral choices. The navigation of these challenges IS roleplaying, so they hardly cold be more central.

Where do you see the "evolution" of CRPGs headed?
There is a clear trend away from the abstract towards the simulated. From the stats and rounds of P&P to action and real time gameplay. Towards world simulators with almost invisible stats and mechanics.


What direction would you take if you had a controlling stake?
I would take a game with the presentation of Oblivion, throw in a far more complex skill, dialogue and character progression system that however works mostly "out of sight", and a highly non-linear plot.
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Chefe

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Messages
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What do you believe is the common perception of what constitutes a CRPG?

Elves, Orcs, and Giant swords (or other generic fantasy elements). Aimlessly killing creatures. A story with names you can't pronounce about some fairy land that looks like it came out of a 12 year old DnD player's head. Getting fat loots and buying new gear. Grinding for stats. Saving the world.

This is the reason why games like Dungeon Seige are considered RPGs, and Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas is not.

What are your own philosophies on the matter?

It's all about the world, baby. Your character should gradually have a stronger and stronger presence in the game world, and actively be changing it. The consequences, for good and ill, would slowly reveal themselves over the course of play. Alliances made and broken, men rise and fall to power, and somewhere in the middle of it all your character or team achieves their goal.

It's also about moral ambiguity, not those those silly alignment meters. Most actions (notice that I said "most") should have at least two reactions associated with them. You may find out down the road that perhaps you shouldn't have really given that money to the beggar, but the choice has been made and you as the player have to find a way to deal with this new situation.

And, of course, the story can't be shit.

To what degree does that philosophy actively define your enjoyment of a CRPG?

There's a reason why I really don't play many CRPGs anymore. Seeing as there really hasn't been a game yet to the description I gave, I can get by with a big gameworld and lots of choices in interacting with it. Real choices though, such as guild alliances and the way you accomplish tasks, not things like the color of your armor or if you'd rather wield a sword or a [blunt] axe.

What challenges should the game present to a player, and how integral should they be to the role playing elements?

I mentioned above about moral ambiguity and choices. I believe that's where the challenge should lie. In my opinion of an RPG, it's not about how many points you can rack up in your "Sword" skill to defeat hordes of enemies, but about how the choices you make in interacting with the citizens of the world affect how you progress through the game. Having to deal with the consequences later on is part of that challenge. Constantly second guess yourself, learn all the information you can before you make a critical decision, and learn how to fix your mistakes if it turns out your decision turned everything in the wrong direction.

It is a game down at heart. You should be able to reach the end of your journey and find out you failed. You lost. You made bad choices and things didn't turn out in your favor. You didn't meet the challenge. Try again.

Where do you see the "evolution" of CRPGs headed?

They're going to continue down the path of grinding, exp, and fat loots until players simply can't take it anymore. They'll be Dungeon Seiged and Warcraft'd out. The genre will only survive in a few indie operations, until it gets another surge a few years later. At that point, we'll see the spiritual successors to Torment and Fallout come on board. Several years after that, the spiritual successors to Dungeon Seige and World of Warcraft will pop up. Things will die off again, and the cycle will repeat.

I don't see it as an evolution, I see it as a cycle. First there's evolution, then peak, then de-evolution, followed by starvation, and then evolution again to start the new cycle. Right now we are in the "de-evolution" phase.

What direction would you take if you had a controlling stake?

I'd whore myself out, make some fat loots, then blow it all on developing the most anti-mainstream CRPG in existence. I'm talking a game where it's all dialogue, no combat at all. That'll show 'em.
 

Naked_Lunch

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What do you believe is the common perception of what constitutes a CRPG?
Stats, hence why some many people call the addition of stats to "other" genres (esp. FPS) "rpg elements".

Oh, and dungeons. Can't have an RPG without dungeons.

What are your own philosophies on the matter?
Stats without consequences are meaningless. For a game to be considered an RPG, the stats must be used in some way that affects the world and has consequences, whether that being failing to hit an enemy, rolling a sucessful Int check, anything that involves stats and the outcomes they determine.

I would also say "NPC interaction", but then that would be excluding most roguelikes and hack 'n slashes, which are certainly RPGs by my definition. NPCs and the dialouges thereof are just outputs for stats.

To what degree does that philosophy actively define your enjoyment of a CRPG?
If a game's fun, it's fun. No whining over how bad of an RPG it is will change that. Of course, you have to take into consideration what you expect and how well the RPG elements the game does offer are used and implemented. Diablo II may be a bad RPG in the sense of actual roleplaying and dialouges and all that jazz, but is still a fun game because it offers extensive options in which to "roleplay" you character at the most basic level.

Where do you see the "evolution" of CRPGs headed?
Some might say down the toilet :P

Chit...LOST is on, I'll finish this up later
 

Balor

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Here are my thoughts about philosophy of CRPGs and common misconceptions about them - I'll leave answers to less important questions out.

In short:

Role-Playing game (RPG) is a game that allows your character to play a certain role of his choice, react to it and reward/penalize him accordingly.

Now, in detail:

Role - so, what is it, exactly?
What Wikipedia says:

A role (sometimes spelled as rôle) or social role (in sociology) is a set of connected behaviours, rights and obligations as conceptualised by actors in a social situation. It is mostly defined as an expected behavior in a given individual social status and social position.
As we see, social role dictate your behaviour, rights and obligations.

What about artistical role?

The term role in the performing arts is usually taken to mean an actor's interpretation of a fictional character written in a script that culminates in a unique performance of that character.
So, you take role of person, with certain personal traits, and play it according to some scenario.

The role in CRPGs seem to be represented by either one of them, or, usually (and ideally) - a mix of both.
Which means - you take a role o certain person - with certain traits that dictate his behaviour, rights(and/or abilities) and obligations(and/or disabilities).
An other note: a role that does not include your morality (or lack of it) and philosophy basis is shallow and incomplete.
It's like in the books; if main character is cookie-cutter mage/warrior/etc, enemies are banal, quest is generic - will this book be interesting to read? I bet not. Not for me, at least.

The allow part is rather tricky. In fact, you can always say that you can 'play a role' in a game like Mario - just, you are limited to a role of bunny-hopping, mushroom-guzzling Italian plumber. So, it should be noted that without choice, notice and reward you can never say that a game is indeed RPG.

Choice part is really important, and also tricky - cause while in P&P you can have nearly (somewhat limited by DM's laziness, actually) freedom to play your role, in CRPGs you are limited to what developers have put into the game.
So, usually, if you have a multitude of choices - they are minor, means game barely notices them, and reward is low... if any, and vice versa. One of few games that allowed a great multitude of choices when it came to playing a role, and had them fleshed out - Planescape: Torment - is rightfully considered one of greatest RPGs of all time.
All in all, the closer your character shapes as what you want him to be - the better.

Reaction part is often overlooked, while it is very important, too. The game may allow playing a role, and have a lot of possible options (choices) - but none of them would make any difference.
A common argument by less "educated" roleplayers that "I can always imagine what my character is like, and act accordingly, even if there are no gameplay mechanics associated". Ok, but will this make this particular game role-playing? If you will slaughter people, for instance, left and right - but no one will take notice? Or you'll save the world - and no one will care?
If you really want to use your imagination to full extent - exit your so-called RPG, launch Word and begin writing a novel.

Reward/penalty is closely connected with reaction.
For instance, if you play a role of a thief - your reputation among common folk will suffer, but among less savory types - increase.
You may have to evade guards, but get access to 'privileges' of Thief guild, ability to rise in its ranks, etc.
Or if you play a role of an archetypical mage, w/o armor and weapons, you should have clear benefits for NOT using them - like higher chance of casting spells, at the very least... and those are only the most obvious examples.
When it comes morality and philosophy of your role, simple reaction sometimes equals reward - nothing like satisfaction of (an other banal example) seeing people running away from your evil character, or praising your goody-two-shoes one.
__________
Now, a few words on things often associated with RPGs: Character statistics (and advancement) and plot (storyline).
In fact, both of them are not mandatory for an RPG - but they make playing it much more rewarding, fleshes out your character’s rights and obligations, and gives player impetus to play forward.
Both have their downsides:
Plot may be a good tool to provide greater immersion, and that's where usually greatest rewards are - but it, in most cases, limits one's choices - especially it's true to linear plot. It can be somewhat countered by allowing each plot event approached from 'different angle' - so, you can play your role adequately even in such 'controlled environment'.

Character statistics is a fine tool to assess your character's strengths and weaknesses, and essentially prevents the game from being too short - like, if you will be able to kill the foozle from the start of them game - you will go, slay it - the end. (Simplified example, of course).
But if you'll need to be skilled and equipped enough for that - it would take longer, and, supposedly, would result in much greater fun...
But, when it comes to downsides - it can become a 'goal in itself', and result in so-called 'action-RPG', where your role becomes secondary to development of one's abilities and collecting items.

Such games can hardly be called RPGs at all - usually, they lack any meaningful choice, take no notice of ones actions and, all in all, do not reward playing a role - only running around, killing things for exp points and loot - pretty much like earning abstract points and collecting bonuses in arcades.
 

Diogo Ribeiro

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What do you believe is the common perception of what constitutes a CRPG?

This can differ wildly from gamer to gamer and on a whole, is not very easilly defined given its dilution when applied to computer or console RPGs. Perhaps the most blatant example of how perceptions are skewed is that the masses will most likely silently accept the RPG categorization made by the relative media, but isolated they can often display arguments or perceptions which run contrary to the games they seem to accept. In these situations, the most common perceptions seem to be that what constitutes a computer or console RPG are an ‘epic’ or ‘strong’ narrative, statistical character management, and combat.

Perhaps what is unfortunate about these common perceptions is that they are often held up by an unspoken majority or gamers that simply accepts industry perceptions and categorizations, instead of being set on any real consensus by all gamers involved. I think the lack of adequate communication channels where opinions can be discussed rather than manufactured, and the over dependency of centralized opinion makers has lead to the current state of things.

What are your own philosophies on the matter?

I suspect my philosophies will seem outdated when taken into the context of today’s genre-blending games or the perceptions of the majority. However it is my belief that a roleplaying game is, or should be about a player-defined and developed entity whose role and choices can be meaningfully expressed in a credibly reactive gameworld where it is placed on. For the most part, my philosophy goes hand in hand with what Pen and Paper usually allows .

To try and briefly expand on this, I think a player should be able to create, as well as define the intrinsic, defining attributes of a character and then play the role they design for it. Allowing the players to do so is important in order to make characters which can properly and satisfyingly interact with their surroundings, as well as creating a semblance of character development. Their attributes should define the possibilities open to them, and their skills should provide multiple forms of interaction. They should prove useful in defining just how a character can overcome the obstacles present before him wheter they are environmental or social in nature.

A character should also be his own entity. It should not, other than standard control necessitities, require extra player input. Any action performed by the character in the gameworld is or should be determined by his attributes or skills. If characters are succeeding in a situation because of my input instead of any skill they intrinsically possess, then the character is taking a back seat and so does his role because I, as the player, am stepping in and taking his role. Roleplaying is all about the premise that it is the character who, trough the use of his own skills and abilities, performs tasks ranging from the mundane to the exceptional – and not the player.

Also, I'd say that while meaningful choices are important, meaningful results to those choices are even moreso. Choice and consequence should be set on a solid, credible framework which stimulates the players’ decision-making and helps characters’ roles become more defined. There’s no point in creating an illusion of choice if a lack of proper consequence will destroy it.

I think I am malleable enough to accept some changes in these points, although it depends to what degree things are being changed.

To what degree does that philosophy actively define your enjoyment of a CRPG?

I’d say they have a pretty big impact. Although I am willing to accept certain compromises, or inherent limitations of the mediums involved, my enjoyment is definitely based on my philosophy, or in some elements of it. I can appreciate a roleplaying game just fine even if its design goes against my philosophy, but usually my appreciation is lowered depending on just how much it strays from it. However, if a game adheres to the core philosophy but only changes the presentation, it usually doesn’t prevent me from enjoying it.

What challenges should the game present to a player, and how integral should they be to the role playing elements?

For short, I believe the game should present to the player challenges that require the knowledge and use of their character’s skills.

But it’s somewhat difficult to come up with a middle ground because no matter how hard we try to separate both, at one point we’re going to fall into the discussion of mental abilities. While it is true that these challenges should be presented to the character, one can’t deny that all games by their very nature involve presenting challenges to the player as well. Wouldn’t you say a character who is extremely intelligent should use his intelligence to solve a puzzle? It should go without saying that a character with an Intelligence of 17 or 18 would see right trough a puzzle and solve it. But for the player, this isn’t satisfying because if the character automatically solves it, then there is no challenge presented to the player, other than dumping points into attribute. In situations like these, it isn’t always easy to present a satisfying conclusion.

However, I think that there can be a compromise.

If a character has enough perception to figure out a puzzle, this knowledge can be given to the player and let him decide what is best. A character with Intelligence 17 or 18 doesn’t necessarily need to automatically work out the situation just because he can. We already know he can do it, but can the player? This is where I think the challenge can be placed. The character figures out the required motions for solving a situation but instead of doing them, he conveys to the player the required steps so he can do them himself. At this point the player should try to solve the puzzle on his own, based on the character’s feedback.

Of course, a dumb Orc would not necessarily figure out the solution to the same puzzle, and this should be conveyed as well. In this case, his ineptude should lead the player into either searching for an alternate method of solving the puzzle that relies on the character’s best features, or for means of advancement which do not rely on the puzzle’s solving. We know the Orc can’t use his brains to solve it; why not try with his brawn? Granted, not all situations would logically have the chance to present this kind of possibility; an Orc would likely not fare very well if he tried to punch trough a magical trap. At times like this, I believe the best way would be to allow the character to observe the surroundings to try and find some clues to solving it. These don’t need to be standard cryptic clues lying around; the character may just as well use his own observation skills to figure out a pattern in the trap, or a perception skill to figure out what would seem out of place. Or just make it so environmental interaction and manipulation is open to characters who absolutely cannot rely on their skills.

I think this method is much better than removing the character’s importance from the situation and placing all the problem-solving elements in the hands of the player. This way, we leave behind the concept of a one-way challenge in order to present a problem possible of being worked out by both the player’s skill and the character’s skill.

However, while I openly admit that this barely touches the surface of the question, it is still a common point of dissention between player vs. character challenges that I thought I should bring up.

Where do you see the "evolution" of CRPGs headed?

I think there are two ways that the computer RPG will likely head towards.

The first way is tied to the mainstream RPGs and how they have, for better or worse, changed many of the attitudes towards the genre. Bluntly put, traditional RPGs will not survive in the mainstream. For the average gamer who sucks the marrow out of anything the media opinion makers say, traditional RPGs are cumbersome and filled with ‘outdated’ elements. The proliferation of this mindset and of games appealing to this mindset has led to games which are slowly, but surely moving away from roleplaying in order to present other elements deemed required to the genre, such as a ‘strong’ story which inexorably draws players into it’s spotlight, or firstperson perspectives which are reputedly more immersive or realistic.

Sure, we’re getting more technically and visually impressive titles but at the cost of a dillution of the concept of roleplaying. At best they cling to some of its old gameplay conventions, more often than not in an attempt to try and get a slice of the RPG market and gamer attention. Does this mean they are bad games? No, they might just be great games. It just means they are not necessarily good roleplaying games. You are more likely to find a good number of best-selling RPGs than good RPGs, and the majority of the best-selling ones lack some of the founding elements that made Wasteland, Ultima VII and Fallout such great roleplaying classics. Elements which we see less and less because they have no place in the mainstream RPG arena.

Also, Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Games (MMORPGs) are getting to be the star child of publishers. Despite needing more money and resources, MMORPG’s abstract a great deal of the so-called convoluted rules and present a higher immediacy to the whole experience. They’re often touted as the evolution of RPGs, and unfortunately they may very well be. Converging established RPG mechanics with large virtual worlds, online communities and social interaction, they’ve set themselves up as an attractive and successful option for many gamers.

The second way is tied to indie developers, and their ability to develop and publish games which are not under market and publisher pressures. Let’s face it, publishers have been one of the banes of gaming for a long time. The development budgets, the following of trends, the glitz over gameplay, all these contribute to a funneling of game development and associated resources. Indie developers don’t have to deal with these constrains and can develop the games they want, how and when they want. They also don’t have to rely on the standard distribution channels. They don’t have to see their games fight for shelf space; they make their own shelf space. Perhaps more importantly than all else, they show that being based on a different business model isn’t bad and in the proccess give mainstream developers and publishers a clear message: they don't have to sell as much as The Sims 2 in order to stay in the business.

So, what does it mean?

I may be wrong (this wouldn’t be a first) but from a business standpoint, with the increasing importance that online gaming is having I suspect that singleplayer roleplaying games, insofar as the mainstream is concerned, are going to dwindle in the long run. They won’t completely disappear, as there is still a significant amount of home users who won’t play online games, but if trends keep dominating the market, I think it’s not totally wrong to consider that the major investments will likely focus on online entertainment. I also see the advent of online gaming in consoles and their popularity another reason for PC-based developers and publishers to try and make a claim in that territory.

This is where I see indie gaming potentially striking gold, with their distribution methods, accessible prices and solid games becoming an attractive and reliable choice for many PC gamers, especially in the development of roleplaying games. Also from a gameplay point of view, the mainstream is far too comitted to percentages and market shares to support innovation or the continuity of certain genres, like the adventure genre. The massification and streamlining that the genre has been going trough finds no equal in indie development and this may just be why it will keep on being appealing.

What direction would you take if you had a controlling stake?

There would be many scenarios to consider and to mention here; a controlling stake varies from case to case. It is entirely possible I would do things the same way as they are done now were I envolved in the mainstream industry, just as it would be possible I’d do them differently if I had no such pressure from publishers and vague market studies.

But assuming two distinct scenarios:

If I were a mainstream developer I would try to adapt the roleplaying conventions we are all fond of into a different level. Largely replacing skills and attributes with strictly player-driven choices and actions – with suitable consequences and reactions – but retaining the same gameplay experience that roleplaying games often provide. I assume this would be an understandable and acceptable (although not ideal) compromise for mainstream titles.

If I were a developer without such constrains I would likely try to implement much of my roleplaying philosophies discussed above into the games I’d develop.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Role-Player said:
Wouldn’t you say a character who is extremely intelligent should use his intelligence to solve a puzzle? It should go without saying that a character with an Intelligence of 17 or 18 would see right trough a puzzle and solve it. But for the player, this isn’t satisfying because if the character automatically solves it, then there is no challenge presented to the player, other than dumping points into attribute. In situations like these, it isn’t always easy to present a satisfying conclusion.

However, I think that there can be a compromise.

If a character has enough perception to figure out a puzzle, this knowledge can be given to the player and let him decide what is best. ...
I humbly disagree. The player shouldn't be involved, he has more important things to worry about - like whether or not there is pixelated nudity in the game. The solution to this puzzle (pun intended) is to make a puzzle more complex than a single skill check.

Here I can offer a good analogy with dialogue design. If you are playing a talkative character, and all you do is click on the best line, courtesy of your high INT, and proceed until the next dialogue skill check, then the game is boring. If being able to play as a diplomat requires more than a single high stat/skill, and you need to gather enough information before your uber high INT would piece it together into a winning sentence, than it's more interesting and involving.

So, back to puzzles. A puzzle should involve the understanding of what your character is dealing with and any extra info that may help. Example, you encounter a door leading to something extremely awesome (which is obvious to any good adventurer). There is one problem though, the entire door is one big-ass lock loaded with tiny traps and springs.

You are very smart, but you realize that you have no fucking clue, except for one - the door leads to something extremely awesome and you MUST have it.

So, you go back and start gathering info. You ask locksmiths, and eventually acquire a book written by a student of the one who made that door. You ask adventurers, and eventually acquire a diary written by a lone survivor of an adventuring band that tried to figure out the lock. They all died trying, save one, but now you know what they did, how the door responded, and a few things that did work.

Armed with both the manual and the diary, and being so fucking smart, you can figure out the pattern, and open the door.

Comments?
 

Diogo Ribeiro

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Vault Dweller said:
Comments?

Two, actually. One, the thread wasn't meant to involve discussion just yet so it wouldn't potentially obscure other's posts.

Second, I don't see how your suggestion differs from mine except in length. I suggested the addition of the player into the equation as an additional means of creating challenge, not as the sole means of interaction with the puzzle. If you'll note, I basically mention the same as you - again, except I did not go into much detail - when I suggest characters use their surroundings, other skills, or environmental manipulation. You can toss interaction with some NPCs, but at its core it isn't that different.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
28,024
Role-Player said:
Vault Dweller said:
Comments?

Two, actually. One, the thread wasn't meant to involve discussion just yet so it wouldn't potentially obscure other's posts.
Where is fun in that? Anyway, all discussions that add something and stay on topic are helpful, no?

I suggested the addition of the player into the equation as an additional means of creating challenge...
And that's what I *respectfully* disagree with.
 

Diogo Ribeiro

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Vault Dweller said:
And that's what I *respectfully* disagree with.

But the player is always present in some situations. Deciding to go gather information about the puzzle is a player activity. Deciding to use an active skill to manipulate an NPC or an object is a plyer activity. Sure enough, my suggestion is not exclusively about the player's input, but instead about how character skills (which can be anything from perception, to intelligence, etc.) don't have to be one-sided. This goes hand in hand with your own suggestion of approaching the puzzle trough investigation - the investigation is conducted by the player, and the character provides the skills to eventually reach the conclusion.
 

Imbecile

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What do you believe is the common perception of what constitutes a CRPG?

Overt stats, and an improving character.

What are your own philosophies on the matter?

I think that attempting to simulate P & P RPGs is probably a bad move - CRPGS choices are going to be far more restricted, and this needs to be accounted for.

Equally I probably prefer more of a focus towards player control and decision than is the norm here. I still feel that the characters stats need to play a significant role in proceedings, but that the players actions and choices should play an part too. I think resolving what part the player should play (if any) could be a bone of contention :P

People often seem to misinterpret choice and freedom with the ability to do everything. A character shouldnt be able to do all the quests or become head of all factions. Choices between character types, races, factions and allegiances should have permanent affects that limit you in the rest of the game. Without limitations, choice is meaningless.

Just curious: could you make a statless RPG?

To what degree does that philosophy actively define your enjoyment of a CRPG?

Hugely. When the player is removed from the decision making processes, be it combat or dialogue - then all that is left is creating the character,and moving from A to B, clicking buttons. Difficult choices are important, but they become less so when your character makes them for you.

Still, I'm a pretty laid back guy, and will give most CRPGs a shot if they look to have somethingabout them.

What challenges should the game present to a player, and how integral should they be to the role playing elements?

Im reading this as a character/ player question, I think. I guess the game should pose a variety of mental, social, dexterity and "physical" challenges that test the player in some way, while being based on the characters stats.

A lot of the time RPGs can be far too easy, and this is inevitable given that the player can up the stats of his character and effectively face the same problem, but with less of a handicap. This is both a good thing and a bad thing, and can be resolved by having a variety of non-levelled, partially levelled, and levelled enemies and items spread around the game world.


Where do you see the "evolution" of CRPGs headed?

I would say MMORPGS sadly. I have never fully understood the lure of them. I've said before that they operate well as pretty chat rooms, but as games they suck.

I like the feeling in CRPGS that I am exploring the world, or at least living in it, and maybe even being the hero.

MMORPGs crush all three of these things.
Wheres the kick in exploring a far off forest, when about forty guys come jogging past you saying how great it is?
How can it be a believable world when you are being spammed by caps about RL issues every 2 seconds?
And as they said in The Incredibles. "When everyones special - no-one is"

What direction would you take if you had a controlling stake?

I guess I like the idea of improving your character without levelling up, having invisible stats - so you have to guess how good you are by how succesful you are. I also like the idea of having a character that only improves a little (and whos Hitpoints dont change at all).

I guess I'd also walk the middle line with a lot of features, as I'm one of these suckers thet genuinely thinks that you can get the best of both worlds without falling between two stools.

Part character/Part player focus
Mix of levelled/Unlevelled enemies/loot
Mix of hand created/Procedural quests

And I'd limit the number of saves between tavern sleeps to one. I loathe autosaves - wheres the fear if you can just reload? But thats just me, I think.
 

Balor

Arcane
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Russia
Quit nitpicking, or make a 'Discussion thread' and post your oppinions, corrections, etc there.
Don't turn this thread into Oblivion general equivalent.
_________
Edit:
Great self-criticism, VD ;).
 

Shim

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Jan 3, 2006
Messages
20
- What do you believe is the common perception of what constitutes a CRPG?

Well judging by the latest releases - "Combat Role Playing Game". Mindlessly whacking monsters can get a little dull so we usually get a backstory which explains why so many things need whacking and a system (attributes / skills / class type thing) that allows your character to develop and whack things that he couldnt before. Your character is mostly defined by how he whacks things; swords, spells, arrows, whatever... The narratives of such games almost require simplistic moral systems; i.e. good vs evil or heroes vs villains. Put simply - a combat game with RPG elements slapped on top.

- What are your own philosophies on the matter?

As you can probably guess, my feelings are that the divide between your run of the mill FPS and a CRPG revolve around the non-combat elements. Consequently RPGs need a richness of detail that makes up for the lack of non-stop action. Moral ambiguity and an understanding of / empathy toward the "other" (npcs, gods, creatures etc..) is one way of providing a deeper framework from which to experience your characters role in the world. This requires a heightened sense of interaction between the actors, events and subsequent story. Complex stuff from a developers point of view so its no wonder that this territory is mostly unexplored.

- To what degree does that philosophy actively define your enjoyment of a CRPG?

Im a computer game junkie anyhow so its no surprise that I can enjoy games that are nowhere near my ideal 'RPG'. Take Baldurs Gate for example, part of me enjoys pushing tiny sprites around a fiddly isometric maze while fighting stuff D&D stylie. Yet it feels like a narrative combat game that simulates a RPG instead of actually being one. On the other hand, many of the games from Troika devote a considerable amount of gametime to the RP side of things and I thoroughly enjoy the stories even if I feel my interaction with them isnt quite what I would like.

- What challenges should the game present to a player, and how integral should they be to the role playing elements?

A fun game and a memorable role-play experience are not the same ! Cool when you get both though ;)

To design a CRPG you need to turn elements of a role-play experience into games. For example; leading a guild could be a RT strategy game, killing zombies a FPS style game, party based combat a turn based / grid strategy game, researching spells could be a puzzle game of sorts and so on... Current RPGs are plagued by combat game dynamics like points (levels), powerups (spells, weapons and all manner of pickupables) and death=forced reload and replay (yawn). As for challenges - fun games are usually well designed and balanced, like chess or poker - a wealth of tactics from some fairly simple rules.

- Where do you see the "evolution" of CRPGs headed?

Stagnation due to the constant advance of technology. Each new GPU forces devs to expand their 3D budget to the nth degree to compete with other companies and the market philosophy of "shiny grafix are teh best!!!". 3D realism is dragging the industry down and the sooner gamers realise that all games are inherently abstract the better.

- What direction would you take if you had a controlling stake?

Imagine a mix of civilisation and Baldurs gate with an original setting. Only better ! It would be moddable (dev tools released to public) and based around experimenting with dumb ideas like; procedurally generated content, environments with heightened interactivity, renewed focus on character stats in relation to how and when information is available, carefully designed AI, modelled economics / trade and so on. Such a broad game would allow for some interesting scenarios; from peasant to king to conquerer of nations, playing an 'evil' faction and burning small towns to the ground for kicks, build a dungeon from which to raise a god of old, or just become a petty thief or trader or whatever :)
 

csy

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Dec 23, 2005
Messages
5
Well, I'm far from being a seasoned roleplayer and my policy here at Codex has been in the ways of "lurk n' learn". But since the aim of this kind of thing is subjective diversity I guess it wouldn't hurt to finally delurk and make an attempt of contribution - consider it as an uneducated guess.

"What do you believe is the common perception of what constitutes a CRPG?"

This is something I honestly can't answer. According to what I've gathered from various parts of teh intarweb, the layman's idea of an RPG is something in between the terms of sci-fi/fantasy setting, stats, combat and questing.

"What are your own philosophies on the matter?"

So, what's an CRPG? First, I should say that I consider that irrelevant. Game development is not rocket science or biogenetics where all serious research and innovation is mainly based on older research and innovation within that branch of
science. But in games, like in politics where terms like "conservative" or "liberal" seem to be mainly a shortcut to simplify things for the target crowd, the genre nitpick only seems to allow the tought process of "ok Watson, even though I dont really understand the process behind the thing, I'm going to vote/buy a (x)oriented party/game from a genre(x) because stances(y,z)/features(y,z) appeal to me" instead of looking each case as an individual.
Then again, I have nearly as little experience of gaming as I have interest in politics, so my point of view is most likely not worth a crap.
But rambling aside. If i try hard enough, my conclusion of an "CRPG" would be a game where one can play a variety of roles through the game while receiving lots of different options, as well as feedback according to those options.
The "roles", "options" and "feedback" should be mutually progressive.
To concretize, a RPG should present the player an gameworld which gives the player a diverse response according to what kind of role the player chose to pick and play.
For now, consider everything else like combat & stat mechanics, irrelevant as long as the RPGishness im trying to concretize is concerned - but they are certainly relevant in how good the overall game experience is, duh.

"To what degree does that philosophy actively define your enjoyment of a CRPG?"

As I said before, the thought "gee, I wonder what genre this game belongs to" hardly registers to me when I'm playing a game. I tend to enjoy all kinds of games from old-school adventure games, flight simulators and RPGs to puzzle games, FPS's and twitchy arcade fighters.
But as long as the so-called CRPG's are concerned and according to my just defined philosophy, I'd say I get most of my RPG enjoyment from the diversity - not in quanity but quality - of the options the game presents to me.
I guess most of you will disagree with this, but in my terms I would say System Shock II is a great RPG(3 greatly diverse roles whom the game presents diverse options), but Elder Scrolls III is merely a generic fantasy simulator(x^3 different roles, but the game is mostly blind,deaf and dumb).
As long as I'm able to stay in the character and not get the "if I were this guy in this world and facing this problem, I surely wouldn't approach it as this damn game forces me to" realization, i guess I'm enjoying my role-playing experience.

"What challenges should the game present to a player, and how integral should they be to the role playing elements?"

I guess the main standpoint here is that the challenges presented should be solvable according to what the game character knows an is capable to, not according to what the player knows and how nimble the player is with his joystick, gaming mouse or whatever-useless-piece-of-shit-hardware he has bought. A dumb character shouldn't be presented a choice to solve a very logically involving problem, but as written earlier in this thread, the solution shouldn't either be the "sole dialogue option:[intelligence > 18]-Even though I just arrived, my sub-consciousness tells me that the murderer of count Gaggelhoff was staff sergeant Dick, now hand me that Purple sword of Annihilation already-".
Overall, I think there's dozens of good ways to present challenges to the player through realtime/TB combat, complex dialogue-trees, the old fashioned "hunt for the cleverly hidden missing info", etc... even minigames, as long as the above rules are met and the stuff is tasteful, balanced and actually challenging.
And no, I don't like the design choices in Morrowind & Oblivion either.

"Where do you see the "evolution" of CRPGs headed?"

Can't be too critical about it, since I haven't played nearly any of the games that have been released within the last few years. All I could say would be based on what I've mostly absorbed from the Codex's heart-warming optimism, and that would be perhaps a bit too predictable.

"What direction would you take if you had a controlling stake?"

Again, hard to take a direction if you dont know which crossroads you're at. But based on the two latest "new age" RPG-classified games I've played: Morrowind and NWN, three of my all-time favourite RPG-classified games: Darklands, TES1 & TES2, and what I've read from the internet, I'd say I would at least revive one dying virtue - procedural content.
First, let me repent.
I'm one of those lucky/pathetic/inexperienced/strange/gay/uneducated(pick your preferred adjective) ones who hasn't yet played the golden classics of the Codex: Fallout, PS:T and Troika games. Now, after about an month or so of half-vigilant lurking, I feel somewhat indirectly brainwashed and have a strange urge to hunt those games down.
Heh, anyway, I'm yet to see truely free-form, option-rich ?RPGish? game that's based on fully hand-crafted content. The original campaign in NWN was rubbish, Morrowind+mods was quite good(well, I never actually played the game in a vanilla way... snatched the game+expansions from a bargain bin last year), I loved the Ultima-series(until U8... yes, despite it's flaws, I even liked that one) and so on, but none of these have managed to create the "a sentient mosquito-shit in the thriving Atlantic Ocean" illusion that Darklands and the early TES's managed to create.
I could go praising for hours, but it's not the point of this thread, so I'll just say that these two kind of games are the type I would enforce the CRPG evolution towards.
Craft an as-large-as-necessary-gameworld and make it feel alive using rich procedural content.
Sink in a dozen or so hand-crafted non-linear/linear major 'quests' including some kind of an main quest. A delicate balance of isometric & text based gameplay, first-person view used for things like dungeon crawling, perhaps.
Overall, emphasise a more free flow of ideas & innovation. The "add x flavour of urine into this pool" design of the sandbox games would allow diverse ways to integrate all kinds of things into the game a la Star Control II & Space Rangers II (god I'm itching to get my hands into that game, just trying to find a decent place to order the Russian version).
Yada-yada.

Hell, no business sense, perhaps too big for an indy project and overall no sense of reality in the design department. Naive ambition? You bet.

PS.Ahh, now that I read it through, my post is rather poorly structured and full of babble, so allow me to present you the most popular scapegoat in the internet: sry guyz but ignlish isnt my natiff language.
Anyway, will try to clarify if asked to.
 

MrBrown

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Dec 17, 2002
Messages
176
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Helsinki, Finland
What do you believe is the common perception of what constitutes a CRPG?

Seperation (at least partial) between player skill and character skill, and the ability for one player to choose between multiple character skills (and quite often also not being able to choose all the possible character skills).


What are your own philosophies on the matter?

I agree with what I wrote above, but I also think that the ability to choose between several meaningful results in the game world is roleplaying, regardless of separation between player skill and character skill. Maybe I should call this "character alignment".

I see this as the difference between the method to solve a conflict, and the resolution attempted. I think for a CRPG either is required, but not necessarily both.


To what degree does that philosophy actively define your enjoyment of a CRPG?

Not much.

Computer games in general are, IMHO, a multimedia thing. This is why defining genres is difficult, and there's much overlap. Because I also enjoy other types of games, it is not really essential to me whether a game is good as a CRPG, as long as the other parts of the game are good.


What challenges should the game present to a player, and how integral should they be to the role playing elements?

The game should present challenges that lead to the representation of the variety of character skills, or to the ability to bring out the character alignment.


Where do you see the "evolution" of CRPGs headed?

To hybrids between classic western CRPGs and Japanese CRPGs.


What direction would you take if you had a controlling stake?

Same. I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the genre, just alot of growing up to do.
 

Twinfalls

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Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
What do you believe is the common perception of what constitutes a CRPG?

Anything with swords, elves, some stats. Pretty much anything that's labelled as such nowadays. The "Common Perception" is much broader now given the huge expansion of games into the popular consciousness.

What are your own philosophies on the matter?

Despite the various arguments that 'there can not be a definition', or that it ought to be 'fluid', and despite the changing nature of what have been considered 'RPGs' over time, I believe one can put forward a fairly concise definition. Furthermore, I think sticking up for a 'Codexian' definition is a good and quite right thing to do. It's a good political strategy for fans of the genre to promulgate high standards. A simple stab:

Any game whose principal features are:

1. Real choices for the player (which entail real consequences, and hence limitations),
2. The facilitation of character development beyond mere powering up,
3. Character skills rather than player skills deciding outcomes,
4. Non-linearity in how the story or stories can be progressed through, and
5. Dialogue and storyline(s) being key aspects and not just 'icing'.

These seem pretty much to boil down to 'allowing you to deeply and genuinely play out different characters of your choice in a simulated game world'.

To what degree does that philosophy actively define your enjoyment of a CRPG?

It's the other way around. When games adopt the above features, I tend to enjoy a game more. The question is a bit misdirected, as I don't think anyone says to themselves "Gee this game sure is fun, but hang on - it fails some RPG feature checks, so I'm going to lower my fun response a few degrees"

Where do you see the "evolution" of CRPGs headed?

Where I'd like to see it head: I hope the capital concentration and MMO investment which has effectively destroyed mainstream big-budget RPGs will allow indie RPGs to fill the vacuum - to a much greater extent than is currently the case. I hope it parallels the early 90s in film and music in the US, when the independent scene flourished and created real movies and rock'n'roll again after the stagnant 80s. I do not hope however that it follows what happened to music and film in the late 90s to now - the co-option of 'indie' by the corporates, the conversion of true independent art into faux-'indie' commerce. That is worse than being 'back to square one'.

What direction would you take if you had a controlling stake?

As Zomg said, procedural content and emergent gameplay. I'd also pioneer a new marketing concept: 'Smarting Up', whereby being cerebral and arty is sold as desirable for a large audience.
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
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Messages
28,357
What do you believe is the common perception of what constitutes a CRPG?
Stats - or at least an element of character "improvement" as opposed to the player getting better through practice. Evidenced by things like Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas and its "role-playing" elements. What are they talking about? The driving? Nope. They're talking about the fact that as you use the guns, your character gets better with them. That you yourself aren't improving but that your character is. It's an aspect of the game I hate as I don't want stats messing with my action games.


What are your own philosophies on the matter?
(Taken from here). The "RPG" genre itself is changing. While taking RPG as a broad "general" category under-which a lot of games fall makes sense, it dilutes what a "role-playing game" really is supposed to be. Role-playing is about making choices and playing "how you want to". For example Fallout's ability to present the player with choices which the player could respond to as he wished and most importantly, having consequences which reflect that choice. You could steal something to fulfil a quest or you could walk in and kill everyone to take it or talk someone into giving it to you.

More and more games are falling into the broad definition of RPG though. More and more games have role-playing elements present. On a basic level, these are things like stats but some even have a handful of elements which let you make choices and determine how the end of the game plays out, such as how your chaacter has affected the outcome of major events within the game the way you think your character should've. As these games come out, they dilute the definition. They're not "really" RPGs, they just have some of those elements. It is my view that in order for the "RPG" genre itself to actually mean something in the future, it needs to change. It needs to stand for a game which includes as many options as possible. It needs to mean a game where you are presented with a range of meaningful choices. Choices that affect the outcome of the game in some way or another. Not "you get team members" or "they call the other people in this game NPCs" or even "it has stats" but rather that it has all of those basic requirements and much, much more. We can break the RPG genre up into sub-categories. That's what's happening already today. But for RPG to actually survive as a proper genre on its own, it needs to evolve.


To what degree does that philosophy actively define your enjoyment of a CRPG?
Hrmm... I enjoy games that are not RPGs as much as I enjoy RPGs themselves. I enjoy GTA: SA. I enjoy Battlefield: 1942. I enjoy Unreal Tournament 2004. I enjoy Starcraft. I even enjoyed Morrowind. Just because I like RPGs doesn't mean I don't like other games. However, it does hinder my enjoyment of games which try to pretend they're things that they're not. Games that claim to be RPGs but which lack any real RPG elements that fit my "philosophy". Part of me starts to hate them. I feel that the developer and / or publisher are trying to appeal to me, as someone who wants RPGs, by labelling their games as such. Yet when they fail to fulfil that expectation, it's disappointing. I look for those elements of choice and consequence when I play a game that claims to be an RPG. It'd be better if those games without them didn't call themselves RPGs.


What challenges should the game present to a player, and how integral should they be to the role playing elements?
I think the nature of the challenges is mostly irrelevant to what I define as an RPG. A game needs to be challenging on some level or people wouldn't play them. The prospect of losing can never be too far away. Obviously there needs to be a fair aspect of the game that takes into consideration your character's skills and provides opportunity for you to make a decision based on those skills. More so to have the outcome of that decision affected by those skills but beyond a broad "the game should provide challenges" and "they should be challenging, not the same damn Towers of Hanoi puzzle bullshit all over again" I couldn't get more accurate than that.


Where do you see the "evolution" of CRPGs headed?
Downhill. I'm still talking about Fallout as the best modern example of the genre. As a whole we're seeing much more "Action-RPGs" of the hack and slash variety, enough that I feel they've spawned their own genre by now (after all, the RTS genre didn't exist for some time until someone made an RTS game, likewise with the FPS). The problem is people take issue with "nostalgia". Looking at the great cRPGs of the 1980's and being abhorred by not being able to call them "RPGs" anymore.

I look at it as the same way you define a Supercomputer. A Supercomputer is only a Supercomputer if it's in the list of the top 500 fastest computers in the world today. As faster computers are made, the old ones can't really be called "supercomputers" anymore. Of course, the old ones are still referred to as such (because they're not exactly normal PCs either) but they're not really all that super, are they?


What direction would you take if you had a controlling stake?
As a customer, I already do have a controlling stake. It affects my buying decisions. For example, I haven't bought games like Kotor and NWN because they don't (from what I've read and heard others talk about) have what I consider to be real RPG elements. As a gamer in general, they lack any other feature which would attract me to them such as decent combat, good gameplay or a solid story. If I owned a game company, I would of course make the sweetest RPG EVAR but I'd also make a good action-RPG or two as well.


And a question of my own: Why the hell is the ABC not showing any episodes of the old series of Dr Who that contain Daleks? We're supposed to have had "Remembrance of the Daleks" for Sylvester McCoy. I was looking forward to it but they skipped right on to "The Happiness Patrol". They even did it with an episode the Daleks were supposed to be in when Peter Davis was The Doctor but they didn't show that one either. Shit like that just pisses me off.
 

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