KickStarter Phoenix Point - the new game from X-COM creator Julian Gollop

[PanteraNera]

And that is specifically talking about the wheel. And even without a controller, the ability to cycle through the choices on the wheel is also good for quickly doing so with the press of a key on the keyboard instead of having to go there with the mouse.

As far as it concerns me, I have nothing against the wheel at all, nor do I remember anyone else condemning the wheel here.
What got people mad, is doing controller-support, especially since Gollop said it was unwise to do so.

to clear it up more:
item wheel = no problem
controller-support = big problem

 

[ArchAngel]

And that is specifically talking about the wheel. And even without a controller, the ability to cycle through the choices on the wheel is also good for quickly doing so with the press of a key on the keyboard instead of having to go there with the mouse.

As far as it concerns me, I have nothing against the wheel at all, nor do I remember anyone else condemning the wheel here.
What got people mad, is doing controller-support, especially since Gollop said it was unwise to do so.

to clear it up more:
item wheel = no problem
controller-support = big problem

While wheel itself might not be a big problem, it is still a control friendly UI element and not K&M one. But the biggest problem is that current UI does not support mouse over information that is key in any K&M focused game.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

And that is specifically talking about the wheel. And even without a controller, the ability to cycle through the choices on the wheel is also good for quickly doing so with the press of a key on the keyboard instead of having to go there with the mouse.

As far as it concerns me, I have nothing against the wheel at all, nor do I remember anyone else condemning the wheel here.
What got people mad, is doing controller-support, especially since Gollop said it was unwise to do so.

to clear it up more:
item wheel = no problem
controller-support = big problem

While wheel itself might not be a big problem, it is still a control friendly UI element and not K&M one. But the biggest problem is that current UI does not support mouse over information that is key in any K&M focused game.

The thing is those problems aren't inherent to a controller, it's still the exact same problem on a controller. The best way to give you that information isn't to mouse over them anyways; the best way would be the same on a controller and K&M, and that'd just be to show you all three options in different colors on screen at the same time. The wheel as it seems to work isn't the best way to select one of three things on a controller anyways either. It's faster to move your thumb down slightly and hit up or down on the d-pad once to select one of the other two options than pressing a button twice or even dragging your cursor across the screen and clicking on one of the other options.

 

[ArchAngel]

And that is specifically talking about the wheel. And even without a controller, the ability to cycle through the choices on the wheel is also good for quickly doing so with the press of a key on the keyboard instead of having to go there with the mouse.

As far as it concerns me, I have nothing against the wheel at all, nor do I remember anyone else condemning the wheel here.
What got people mad, is doing controller-support, especially since Gollop said it was unwise to do so.

to clear it up more:
item wheel = no problem
controller-support = big problem

While wheel itself might not be a big problem, it is still a control friendly UI element and not K&M one. But the biggest problem is that current UI does not support mouse over information that is key in any K&M focused game.

The thing is those problems aren't inherent to a controller, it's still the exact same problem on a controller. The best way to give you that information isn't to mouse over them anyways; the best way would be the same on a controller and K&M, and that'd just be to show you all three options in different colors on screen at the same time. The wheel as it seems to work isn't the best way to select one of three things on a controller anyways either. It's faster to move your thumb down slightly and hit up or down on the d-pad once to select one of the other two options than pressing a button twice or even dragging your cursor across the screen and clicking on one of the other options.

Having so many colored lined at same time on screen is by far the worst choice. You really don't want it to clutter the screen.

 

[Mustawd]

The big issue over all this is that we were merely saying that controller support should not affect the UI for K and M.

However, based on the answers we got it’s apparent they were going to combine the two. Which is ridiculous for a strategy/tactics game IMO.

It’s funny because the first time I ever played X-com was on the Playstation 1, and I fell in love with the game. But goddamn that UI was awful and unecessarily frustrating. A few years later I found out it was an actual PC game and the gameplay was like night and day by comparison.

 

[Shog-goth]

Yes, and I'm sure none of those people also liked or have maybe only ever played XCOM. Given that I've seen people online say they want something else like XCOM, I'd say they're a reality too.

Of course they aren't mutually exclusive, I myself played both of them but even if you have to eat McDonalds doesn't mean that you don't prefer tenderloin. The difference is in what you choose if you have the opportunity.

Yeah, saying you want to have something closer to AAA polish when it comes to graphics in a comparison to how Xenonauts looks probably doesn't mean what you think it means. I mean Guilty Gear Xrd is a game from a small developer that you could also say has the polish of something from a bigger budget production.

Well, trying to achieve AAA polish costs time and money. Both are short at Snapshot and they have to focus on content not fancy graphic or UI "improvements".

The second quote is interesting because the article you pulled it from also says the development team (for XCOM) is 50, maybe 60 (Solomon didn't know exactly) people. That isn't the size of some huge AAA production.

Let's do the math: $100K (US average developer wage) * 60 (developers) * 5 (years in development) = $30M + marketing budget (many other millions) = very big budget, especially for a strategy game.

 

[agris]

The second quote is interesting because the article you pulled it from also says the development team (for XCOM) is 50, maybe 60 (Solomon didn't know exactly) people. That isn't the size of some huge AAA production.

Let's do the math: $100K (US average developer wage) * 60 (developers) * 5 (years in development) = $30M + marketing budget (many other millions) = very big budget, especially for a strategy game.

Remember though, that Snapshot is in Sofia, Bulgaria. Also keep in mind that whatever your position is in the video game industry - be in art, programming or project management - that you are correspondingly paid less than if you were working in an equivalent position in other industries (marketing, corporate software development, etc).

That being said, a quick peek on glassdoor shows non-game software developers are making ~30 to ~35k USD a year in Sofia. I'm sure artist are at least making 20% less, so 25k~ USD. Now a fast google search tells me Snapshot employs 30 people, so that really changes the math for how much it costs to run the studio. Assuming the average wage of their employees is $30k USD a year (which I think is generous, it's likely less), you're looking at funding the Studio for about 1 mil USD a year. I doubt their lease is even 100k/yr, so again, likely less.

edit: I understand this is a bit sideways to your point, which is the cost for AAA production, but I think it's important that people calibrate their analysis to the cost of labor where the game is being made. I'm sure nuCOM cost quite a lot, and I expect PP will cost quite a bit less.

 

[Shog-goth]

Remember though, that Snapshot is in Sofia, Bulgaria.

I'm well aware of that, but in my previous post I was talking about Firaxis XCOM not Snapshot.

 

[Jimmious]

And that is specifically talking about the wheel. And even without a controller, the ability to cycle through the choices on the wheel is also good for quickly doing so with the press of a key on the keyboard instead of having to go there with the mouse.

As far as it concerns me, I have nothing against the wheel at all, nor do I remember anyone else condemning the wheel here.
What got people mad, is doing controller-support, especially since Gollop said it was unwise to do so.

to clear it up more:
item wheel = no problem
controller-support = big problem

Controller SUPPORT is not a problem. Controller-centric UI design is a problem. Supporting extra control methods is not a bad thing, don't be so edgy

 

[PanteraNera]

Controller SUPPORT is not a problem. Controller-centric UI design is a problem. Supporting extra control methods is not a bad thing, don't be so edgy

*sigh* I have dumped it down to this, as this individual didn't seemed to get what was the start.

You can read in more detail what my problem is in this very thread.

But just to sum it up quickly (as I respect you, even if we often disagree), it is that Julian Gollop said they would make one thing, and than they just do the opposite of it. The contradiction is my initial problem, but also what this could lead to, bad UI that is not optimized for keyboard and mouse.

 

[Mustawd]

We’ve already pointed out that there was a lot more evidence in the figstarter pitch that told you what Julian was going for.

I would also love an x-com clone, but based on the fig pitch there was never any question of what he was going to make.

I think trying to hold PP to the pure x-com standard is just ridiculous.

 

[Jimmious]

Yes as Mustawd says, I also didn't get the impression I'm going to get a completely old-school X-COM "clone" and actually the nuXCOMs were frequently referred...
So basically it boils down if we consider nuXCOM UI console centric or not. I guess I do , kind of, but I don't mind it so much if the game's good

 

[Jimmious]

Of course I must say that I did like the nuXCOMs even if they had this much more "board-game" approach

 

[PanteraNera]

We’ve already pointed out that there was a lot more evidence in the figstarter pitch that told you what Julian was going for.

I would also love an x-com clone, but based on the fig pitch there was never any question of what he was going to make.

I think trying to hold PP to the pure x-com standard is just ridiculous.

Seriously mustawd.? You called MLMarkland a liar charlatan and everything, and he was actually not contradicting himself at the point you did call him that. I can understand why you didn't liked him. I still think that YOU out of all people should understand.

I just hate the fact, that people SAY one thing, get money for that, believe and than DO the opposite. I do NOT understand why this does not seem to bother anyone else.

Like I said, I think PP will be a good game, better than NuXCOM, but hey a one-eyed is king of the blind.
It's more of a less shit than the rest, makes it better.

Also I am a hopeless fabulous optimist and I really tried to not get to attached to PP, I failed at that.

 

[Shog-goth]

I think trying to hold PP to the pure x-com standard is just ridiculous.

Yes as Mustawd says, I also didn't get the impression I'm going to get a completely old-school X-COM "clone"

I agree with both of you, but the point is this: UFO with XCOM elements VS XCOM with UFO elements. I think the former was promised, but that we'll get the latter.

 

[ArchAngel]

I think trying to hold PP to the pure x-com standard is just ridiculous.

Yes as Mustawd says, I also didn't get the impression I'm going to get a completely old-school X-COM "clone"

I agree with both of you, but the point is this: UFO with XCOM elements VS XCOM with UFO elements. I think the former was promised, but that we'll get the latter.

Nah, it was clear from the start that it would be Xcom with UFO elements.

 

[Abu Antar]

 

[PanteraNera]

I agree with both of you, but the point is this: UFO with XCOM elements VS XCOM with UFO elements. I think the former was promised, but that we'll get the latter.

Thanks! Sums it up in one sentence that shouldn't be to hard to understand .
This is my main issue as well.

 

[Jimmious]

I think trying to hold PP to the pure x-com standard is just ridiculous.

Yes as Mustawd says, I also didn't get the impression I'm going to get a completely old-school X-COM "clone"

I agree with both of you, but the point is this: UFO with XCOM elements VS XCOM with UFO elements. I think the former was promised, but that we'll get the latter.

Could be so, even though it's a bit up to each person's understanding of what was promised..
Again I'm speaking personally but if I see all these simulation aspects with factions that have agendas, evovling enemies etc along with bullet tracing and other mechanics like that, I really won't mind the XCOM "shell"

 

[ArchAngel]

As soon as we've seen that demo at the time of Fig campaign it was clear that this was Xcom with UFO elements, or nuXcom done right.
Demo had similar graphics, cinematic camera, move+attack system, small team and overall feel of Xcom. They they also gave a list of UFO features that they would add that nuXcom never had. They would add that to Xcom base, I don't have a clue how anyone could expect it would be UFO with nuXcom elements added.

 

[Shog-goth]

Nah, it was clear from the start that it would be Xcom with UFO elements.

From official FAQ:

Phoenix Point is being created by Julian Gollop who was the original designer, programmer and artist of X-Com (X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown) in 1994. Phoenix Point is a spiritual successor to the original X-Com games and hopes to invoke the same feeling and atmosphere of those classic games, retaining many of those much-loved gameplay mechanics while adding some new ones.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Is that the same demo that was already shown or a different version?

 

[Zombra]

The thing is those problems aren't inherent to a controller, it's still the exact same problem on a controller.

The big issue over all this is that we were merely saying that controller support should not affect the UI for K and M.

Yeah. Assisted Living Godzilla, if you don't think there's an issue with controller support, consider what UnstableVoltage said just yesterday:

While controller support may well have been low on the list - it's also fairly simple and cheap to implement. Certainly, it does require some UI concessions - unless you just go for a controller driven mouse cursor.

There you have it, a Snapshot dev stating flatly that controller support is dumbing down the design of the interface, and that this decision is intentional despite its direct contradiction to the poll results.

To me that is a cause for concern, and yes, complaint.

 

[ArchAngel]

Nah, it was clear from the start that it would be Xcom with UFO elements.

From official FAQ:

Phoenix Point is being created by Julian Gollop who was the original designer, programmer and artist of X-Com (X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown) in 1994. Phoenix Point is a spiritual successor to the original X-Com games and hopes to invoke the same feeling and atmosphere of those classic games, retaining many of those much-loved gameplay mechanics while adding some new ones.

That FAQ is very undefined and I can understand how you can see it one way while I see it another way. And if it wasn't for the demo that obviously shown us how it will really be, I would agree with you.

 

[Shog-goth]

That FAQ is very undefined and I can understand how you can see it one way while I see it another way. And if it wasn't for the demo that obviously shown us how it will really be, I would agree with you.

I based my assumptions on what was said, not on a mockup prototype gameplay video that didn't show pretty much anything. There is nothing ambiguos in that FAQ, for me It's crystalline clear what was promised.