KickStarter Phoenix Point - the new game from X-COM creator Julian Gollop

[rezaf]

Mechs are useless fantasy bullshit however many legs are given to those.

Cmon, we're almost there!

 

[luinthoron]

Question, who of the "PP fuck yeah, awesome, I believe in Snapshot Games without doubt"-crowd has actually put money into it? ArchAngel , mustawd. , Mazisky
The only two person I know itt that put their money in are Shog-goth and Grotesque

Early Bird Collector's Edition, thank you.

also I expected the TU's not to be only for movement).

They're not only for movement, though, there's a reason why different weapons/items let you move a different amount while still being able to use them.

Also I didn't expected them to go "full tripple A graphics". I also expected them to follow the art-direction they showed on Fig.

What about the graphics presented in the Fig campaign could have possibly made you think they would not be going for modern AAA graphics? We had this there right from the start...

I'm also still trying to figure out why you think the art direction has changed in any way from the campaign, other than the obvious changes to the UI...

 

[Galdred]

Mechs are useless fantasy bullshit however many legs are given to those.

Cmon, we're almost there!

Spoiler

Not only was it staged, they filmed it over 3 days!
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme...ted-giant-robot-fight-staged-took-3-days-film

Actually, the problem is that the smaller version performs better, and doesn't seem to require pre choregraphied battles:

 

[rezaf]

But these ground vehicles are going to get stuck in terrain so easily. Think about the mobility moving on two legs would provide.
Heck, you don't have to use your imagination, look at this guy:


Disclaimer: If the tongue smiley in my last post didn't give it away, I'm of course with you and the concept of a bipdal walker "tank" seems pretty ridiculous.

 

[Jack Dandy]

Giant Mechas will never ever be feasible. Unfortunately, not even VOTOMS-sized ones.

Now, Starship Troopers-styled Power Armor... That's an entire thing entirely. I can only wish I'll live to see the day these bad boys will be deployed on the field.

 

[Viata]

Giant Mechas will never ever be feasible. Unfortunately, not even VOTOMS-sized ones.

They said the same for man flying, mate. Just you wait.

 

[PanteraNera]

It is possible 3d model was already mostly made by one of the artists, most of these guys were making 3d models their whole life even before they started doing it professionally. It would have been easy to take one that was maybe less finished, improve it a bit and then have it as concept.

 

[Alienman]

How about Japanese style power armor. No way that have been trademarked.

Spoiler

 

[Viata]

Tbh, either you go full anime mecha or it sucks.

 

[Trans-Financial-Man]

As much as I don't mind something more like Xcom 2 from a gameplay perspective, I do feel a bit disappointed in how much has changed so soon. It does seem rather misleading.

 

[PanteraNera]

TL;DR: Why I think PP will be worse than X-Com but better than XCOM 2 and other stuff

Disclaimer: This is all my personal point of view, I tried my best to give references, also keep my first, second and third discord-quote posts in mind, as this is building up on them.

*edit* fucking fuck shit, can't get this fucking format fixed grrrr


First Chapter: - False Assumptions

1. Crowdfunding is for niche games that wouldn't be made otherwise
   I believe it was the initial idea or just hope, but if one looks at what has happend since the first big kickstarter-successes in 2012 it is imminent that there is a rather sharp decline over the following years. At this point, after a lot of abandoned, unfinished, unpolished or just outright failed projects, fraud and broken promises most people do not easily trust in crowdfunding anymore. And rightly so, as there is no real legal strings attached, once a project is funded the studio can pretty much do what ever they want to.
   Also I am just not sure how "niche" some of these games really were, or if some developers just wanted to get out of the traditional developer-publisher-box to have full control over their project.
   What most people might have actually forgotten, Gollop tried to get a traditional publisher for Phoenix Point before doing the fig campaign. In failing to find one (for what ever the reason were) I saw a sign that the game would not be mainstream.
   
   
   reference

   reference:
   Rock, Paper, Shotgun Article from 2016: "Gollop is in town to talk to publishers as well as press, and already has a working prototype of the strategic game. Tactical combat is almost ready as well, in pre-alpha form."
   
   
2. Indie Developers are making games that are not mainstream and are player-orientated
   While true with some, it holds not true with all of them.
   Also indie dev does not equal indie dev. There are teams out there like Klei that have a lot of direct communication with there players going and players are able to influence development in Early Access as for example they did with Invisible Inc., than we have teams like Skyshine that were out of the ordinary respectful, polite and apologetic in their Kickstarter campaign. We have newcomers that are totally new to game development like Overhype, or game development veterans like Brian Mitsoda who founded Double Bear Productions
   Like Zombra has pointed out, there is not "one kind of indie's" but a lot of them that do things differently.
   
   
3. What I imagined "spiritual successor to the original X-Com games" and "promises to recapture the spirit of his original series" means
   This is what got my hopes up all high for the tactical and strategical gameplay aspects of the game. With these sentences in mind I looked very likely from a different angle at what was written and showed in the Fig campaign, than others. With that in mind, I assumed that the gameplay that has been shown, is just not finished, is just bare bone, are placeholders, are not fleshed out, has a lot to come, will evolve into something visionary. A true union of old (X-Com) and new (XCOM), a fusion.
   
   
   reference

   references:
   1.) official game website: "spiritual successor to the original X-Com games"
   2.) header fig campaign right side:"promises to recapture the spirit of his original series"
   3.) article from polygon that was linked in the first fig update: Phoenix Point is a post-apocalyptic game and the spiritual successor to Gollop’s branch of the X-COM franchise.
   
   
4. What I imagined the hybrid-system would be
   There was not much information in detail about the 2AP-TU-hybrid system and as I had pointed out the wording on the fig campaign was very open for change. And to get it out of the way, I never said nor do I belief that Snapshot has lied in regards of this matter. Also as I have stated with point 3. just above, I was expecting that there has to be more to it. I assumed that they would try to get as much of the possibilities that TU's offer into the 2 AP-system. See basically their hybrid-system is not an 2 AP system anymore, as you do not do one move with one click. I expected to have the ability to manually crouch and hoped that you could even prone (it makes just so much sense with true ballistics). Also I expected that you could control the soldiers facing (especially with overwatch and return fire in mind). Even more so because there was later some talks about how the Synedrion Infiltrator would have 360° vision. Also I hoped that you could do move-move, move-use item, use item-use item (use item, might be healing, shooting reloading) as that would be the closest to what TU's offered.
   
   
5. Conclusion
   I can openly admit that I have had wrong assumptions, I can now understand that. Still I think if the Fig campaign had been worded differently, more specifically, I and as it seems others would have not made these wrong assumptions in the first place.
   I perceive Snapshot Studios defiantly as an traditional developer, that does not want or value player-feedback at a level as other indies do and would rather work behind closed doors. Also I do not think they understand the current state of crowdfunding, that people have become very sensitive because of delayed than canceled games, running out of money releasing half finished games, broken promises and all that crowdfunding-drama.
   
   What most crowdfunded projects do not understand is this: if they are working with an traditional publisher, they have to reach mile-stones in a timely fashion and keep the publisher updated, if they fail to do so, or do something completely different they will get no more funds. Why thread the crowdfunders not the same way? At least with mile-stones and updates. If there is things the developer wants to change, why not making a poll/survey with options and involve the people that gave you money for something else in the first place? If something does not work, communicate that.
   
   Personally I think crowdfunding will get harder and harder and in some years it will be probably very hard to fund games that are overly ambitious because most of the times these fail. I would have loved to see PP get way more funds and it probably would have when kickstarter was a thing. But it is not anymore, with reason. And if one wants to be successful he has to keep this in mind.
   

Second Chapter: Change of Art-Style
This mainly focuses right now around New Jericho as other parts have not been shown so far, all this is comparing to the PC Weekender demo. Also keep in mind that as I have posted here, everything visually from Fig is not valid anymore.

1. New Jericho soldiers and equipment
   
   from Fig

   

   
   the third from the left side is New Jericho, source: from the fig page
   
   

   

   
   New Jericho concept, source discord
   
   

   

   
   right side New Jericho heavy concept, source discord
   
   

   

   
   Concept of New Jericho headgear posted in an fig update
   
   

   

   
   This New Jericho flamethrower looked so nicely used and battered and individualized, source fig update
   
   

   

   
   Another New Jericho Flamethrower from the same fig update
   
   
   What New Jericho looks like now

   

   
   

   

   
   

   

   
   both images taken from discord
   
   
2. Old vs. New, New Jericho Vehicle
   
   
   old/new

   [*]

   

   
   New Jericho Vehicle concept, fig update
   
   

   

   
   Armadilo, New Jericho Vehicle, source: discord
   
   
3. Phoenix Point soldiers
   
   
   PP Soldiers from fig / most recent concept

   

   
   

   

   
   from the fig page
   
   

   

   
   Phoenix Point soldier, fig update
   
   

   

   
   Most recent concept art, source discord
   
   
4. Other notes regarding visuals
   I thought that what they have initially pitched looked fine, it was by no means triple A and looked dated but worked for me. I did not expect them that they would completely redo so much and also change the key-visuals to that extend they did with New Jericho. Also consider this, all of that is a shitload of work that has to be paid for, we are not talking about some minor changes but an complete overhaul, for the sake of triple A graphics while they are knowing that they have limited funds, they stated that they are not sure on how much VO will get in the game (theoretically if any) because of being expensive, no cut-scenes, not enough money for big shows like E3. In that context it is a big deal that they are using what little they have, to redo something that was already there. They should have stated in their pitch that all that is shown are either placeholders or will be completely redone.
   
   
   old/new video

   
   
   
   
   
5. Starbucks-metaphor
   Okay lets take this into a metaphor, I go to Starbucks and see and order a Coffe Frappuccino, I pay and pick it up, after the first sip I am confused and realize it is an Caramel Frappuccino and I hate caramel. The waitress than explains to me, that she knows what customers like best and that is why she gave me with out asking me an Caramel Frappuccino instead of what I was shown and what I have ordered.
   That is what I mean with being disrespectful. Kotaku referred to PP as "Phoenix Point Is The Fusion of XCOM And Fallout We All Want" (as quote by Snapshot in the Fig campaign). What if people have gave their money because they liked for example the look of New Jericho, that is distinctively looking differently to what XCOM and XCOM 2 has to offer, what if they liked the more "scavenger-y" look, what if they liked the Phoenix Point soldiers shown in the Fig?
   If you are being respectful and keep in mind that you were paid in advance, you would consider that and at least say something about it. I guess they redesigned New Jericho because it looks more like XCOM 1/2 to appeal to fans of these games. No involvement what so ever with whom they got the money from to do it in the first place.
   

Third Chapter: PP compared to X-Com

1. Story
   X-Com wasn't story driven and didn't needed to be. As I have said somewhere else I do sometimes think that this why old-timer like me hold hold old games so high, through lack of HD-graphics there was so much interpretation/imagination/immersion going on in the players head instead of today were you "consume" the images that are give to you as they give/have all the detail in them.
   I am looking forward to the story PP has to offer, as I stated itt I have read all the short-stories that have been released so far and will keep on reading them. As also discussed a little itt, there could possible be some bad story-crafting regarding why the Phoenix Project has not acted sooner, how the player might put into command might feel cheesy (lots of games get that wrong, Dead State come first in mind for me). As has been stated several times by Snapshot officials, it is very unlikely that we will find out about most of the story, before the game gets released. I hope the will do QA and have some game testers that actually have a brain and can spot possible bad writing and/or hiccups in the story-line. But I am optimistic as Allen Stoud really seems like a competent world-builder and knows his shit.
   
   
2. Tactical-Layer
   While the UI in X-Com shows its age and leaves much to be desired by modern standards, the tactical gameplay offers so much that has rarely been seen in other games. Fully destructible environment, a lot of tactical options thanks to the TU system, like throwing ammunition to a soldier that has run out shots, stance control, view direction control, different fire modes, "real" cover, smoke grenades and multiple firing modes, putting a unconscious comrade into your backpack running to the skyranger to abort the mission and save him, do the same with an unconscious alien, shoot at a wall to destruct it and use your next shot to kill the alien that is now to be seen.
   In its current state I have the feeling that PP is not even coming close to what X-Com has to offer tacticaly. There is a lot of improvement in the UI and information is really well visualized, I can say so far I like everything but the core game-mechanic that is the 2AP-TU-hybrid-system that could still be improved by a lot but I doubt that at this stage.
   I am really excited about the mutating aliens and think it is a really awesome feature with lots of possibilities. Gollop had said in an interview that every X-Com game got easier as the game progresses and that this might change that.
   
   
3. Strategical-Layer
   Another part were X-Com is still shining 24 years later and few game haven't even come close to it. Some parts are really tedious by today's standard (buying ammunition/supplies) but all in all it is amazing that you actions on the geoscape defined your tactical missions, base building, research, all done right.
   Unfortunately I can not say a lot about PP here, as there is little that has been shown so far, what has been said sounds really promising, I think it will be different from X-Com for sure but if they follow what the said they would do, it would add complexity in some parts, while removing them in others. Not sure about events and story-driven-geoscape thought. But yeah nothing certain to say here.
   
   
4. Overall coherence
   X-Com is a game from 1994, the graphics were well for its time, as was the sound, especially the creepy music. All elements fitted into each other very well. Nothing was lacking. Very coherent game.
   It is one of my main worries with PP, the overall coherence, I think it might be problematic for being commercially successful to have good graphics, a good story, but no to little VO and no cut-scenes. The last two points are today standard in games. A more coherent game would probably had been possible if graphics were not such a major issue as reworking them. I have the feeling that the finished PP will feel lacking in parts and be not such a coherent game.
   
   
5. Visuals
   By today's standard I would say X-Com looks horrible and that strange comic-style is absolutely not my taste. But as I have played it day and night back in 1994 and up until the present, I have to say I just love the graphics :D (defiantly not objective).
   I really love what PP is going for visually, even more so in what they had originally pitched. I am currently a little worried that most of the awesome concepts get streamlined as they did with New Jericho. I like the alien design and think it is really well executed. I think PP will be pretty impressive once it is finished.

Fourth Chapter: PP compared to XCOM 1 & 2

1. Story
   To talk about XCOM 1 & 2's story is ... no, I won't go there. Especially XCOM 2 comes close if not even beyond Bethesda's writing and story-telling quality.
   PP will be by far a very clear winner in that regards.
   
   
2. Tactical-Layer
   So XCOM 1 & 2 is the foundation for PP, they build on it and add elements like real ballistics, TU-like movement and other features from X-Com, all around clear winner here.
   
   
3. Strategical-Layer
   Hahaha, even if PP does its strategical layer half-assed it would be a clear winner.
   
   
4. Overall coherence
   That is the only point were XCOM 1 & 2 will win, as they had a budged for all game elements. As said before PP seems to be to focused on graphics and properly lacking in the future the money for the other parts.
   
   
5. Visuals
   Again, if the new New Jericho / the recent gameplay video is the direction they are heading in, than they might look similar in the end. PP still has the more interesting alien design thought.

 

[Shog-goth]

 

[Zombra]

OK ... I honestly haven't been following development at all, but I want to support a couple points real quick.

Change of Art-Style
New Jerchio (sic) soldiers and equipment

What the hell? I never heard about this before. They took them out of those cool leather coats and put them in straight up XCOM Carapace armor? And the PP guys went from badasses in bandanas to power armor astronauts? That does all look uglier and blatantly derivative. The original stuff was cooler and ... original.

There could possible be some bad story-crafting regarding how the player might put into command might feel cheesy (lots of games get that wrong, Dead State come first in mind for me).

Ugh. Are they actually going to have a "commander" character in the game, like "you" are supposed to "really be there"? Oh my god, that's awful. This was dumb and worthless at best in the XCOMs, people suddenly turning to the camera as if it were a person. UnstableVoltage, if this is happening, please please stop it. Just let Bradford and Shen talk to each other as if "I'm" not there, because "I'm" not and "I" shouldn't be.

 

[Shog-goth]

The ragtag army look was beautiful, logical, coherent and organic. Space marin-ish is not.

 

[PanteraNera]

Ugh. Are they actually going to have a "commander" character in the game, like "you" are supposed to "really be there"? Oh my god, that's awful. This was dumb and worthless at best in the XCOMs, people suddenly turning to the camera as if it were a person. UnstableVoltage, if this is happening, please please stop it. Just let Bradford and Shen talk to each other as if "I'm" not there, because "I'm" not and "I" shouldn't be.

That was bad wording. What I meant was that it might be hard to explain why the Phoenix Project is in the state it is when the game starts. I belief that they have not decide if the player will be directly addressed, as they still have not decide how they transport the story, but yeah I hope UnstableVoltage clears that up.

 

[UnstableVoltage]

Ugh. Are they actually going to have a "commander" character in the game, like "you" are supposed to "really be there"? Oh my god, that's awful. This was dumb and worthless at best in the XCOMs, people suddenly turning to the camera as if it were a person. UnstableVoltage, if this is happening, please please stop it. Just let Bradford and Shen talk to each other as if "I'm" not there, because "I'm" not and "I" shouldn't be.

That was bad wording. What I meant was that it might be hard to explain why the Phoenix Project is in the state it is when the game starts. I belief that they have not decide if the player will be directly addressed, as they still have not decide how they transport the story, but yeah I hope UnstableVoltage clears that up.

Short answer is - I don't know. But I've heard no mention of player being a "commander" type character who is directly addressed within the story.

 

[Zombra]

I've heard no mention of player being a "commander" type character who is directly addressed within the story.

Thanks! I know I can count on you to step on that kind of talk if you hear the devs bring up the idea

 

[The Fish]

On the topic of mechs I always thought Maschinen Krieger had a nice mix of mundane and cool.

 

[Galdred]

The ragtag army look was beautiful, logical, coherent and organic. Space marin-ish is not.

PP should at least limit the Space Marine aesthetic to the end of the tech tree.

Aren't they supposed to be another faction?

 

[Viata]

What I don't understand is how could PanteraNera wrote Jerchio given that in almost every image he posted it is written as Jericho.

 

[Zombra]

One of the most absurd things in playing 2012/2016 is soldiers never running out of new magazines and amassing piles of corpses at their feet. PP's lack of inventory might end up the same way.

I'm a bad person, but I am completely OK with this. I want to press one button at the beginning of the game labelled [TRAIN ALL YOUR SOLDIERS TO PACK PLENTY OF AMMO] and then have them do it every time. I also don't want to have to tell them to put gas in the Avenger before flying out to a crash site.

What I don't understand is how could PanteraNera wrote Jerchio given that in almost every image he posted it is written as Jericho.

On purpose. Just reminding us that those bitches from New Jerchio are hella "jerky, yo".

 

[PanteraNera]

What I don't understand is how could PanteraNera wrote Jerchio given that in almost every image he posted it is written as Jericho.

Autism confirmend.

Actually I am dyslexic. Will fix that once I got time.

*edit* if it wasn't clear I meant myself with "Autism confirmed"

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

PP's lack of inventory might end up the same way.

It got axed?

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

The ragtag army look was beautiful, logical, coherent and organic. Space marin-ish is not.

PP should at least limit the Space Marine aesthetic to the end of the tech tree.

Aren't they supposed to be another faction?

Here is more recent concept of PP troopers.

That kinda stuff might work later in the tech tree, so PP would start as a rag-tag band and eventually reach those sleek power armours.

 

[PanteraNera]

PP's lack of inventory might end up the same way.

It got axed?

I don't think so, no Snapshot official said it got axed. Thought they haven't shown anything so far regarding it.