KickStarter Phoenix Point - the new game from X-COM creator Julian Gollop

[Israfael]

In all fairness, this thread is probably the most even-headed and polite game discussion topic on the Codex, and these people complain. They remind me of some idiots at 2K forums (like SectoidSquisher) who just bashed anyone who even dared to think that this game is a perversion of what X-com was and voiced some concerns (they denied that shots went through walls for 2 months or so and pretended to think that sims are only about car and warplane games). I like that the devs and UV try to listen to us and implement things we want to see (like proper TUs, I hope they make it into the game), but it's very unfair to misrepresent our views (and I just explicitly expressed that we are not a 'make x-com copy' crowd) to attack us and present us as some unreasonable doofs.

For instance, I described in detail what I perceived as a critical flaw of nuXcom (sim vs game argument) instead of just dismissing our opponents arguments right off the bat. And, by the way, I don't really have any expectations, I just remember Julian was saying the game would be more 'simulationist' and what we got before this week was strongly indicating in favour of the opposite way of doing things, so naturally, in absence of any dev input (and it's a trend that's been observed since KS start - as I see it, you guys could have earned 3x more money if you did your pitches and updates like Larian does) it's easy to assume the worst and roll with it. Also, since xcomapoc was widely mentioned, I expected to see the geoscape level of interactions similar to what was there (+ destructable environment, of course), and we still have precisely 0 info on how geoscape works (and if it's even present in any form)

PanteraNera you are close to becoming Sensuki v2.0

 

[agris]

I'm also a full-time carer for my disabled mother.

It's a hard, thankless job man, but you're doing it right. In a home with her family, rather than in a "home".

 

[Shog-goth]

there is internal testing for multiple shots per turn (each using X amount of TUs)

Fixed or percentage cost like X-COM?

I'm also a full-time carer for my disabled mother

You have my sympathy, truly.

 

[PanteraNera]

About the hybrid system

About your work at Snapshot Games

Thank you so much for these two in detail posts. That actually proves that I have made quiet some wrong assumptions and as I said, I have absolutely no problem in admitting that. All I want to do in this thread is to gather information, to have a solid base for discussion if people feel like it.

Like I said before, the lack of solid information often leads to wrong assumptions. If there were more information readily available people like me could not do these wrong assumptions in the first place. But I do understand that you have a lot of work.

What I am actually worried about with how you described the hybrid-system is that you might go to much into the XCOM-direction (heh, I am pretty sure nobody expected that from me). Seriously I still would wish that full control about stances and facing would make it into the game, that would be the icing on the cake, but there is not much gained if the project fails commercially because it is to complex for the masses. I have not realized that what was shown in the PCGamer Weekender had this underlying mechanics. What I thought about is this, how about doing two systems, so players can decided with wich system they want to play the game? Julian Gollop has done it in the past with X-Com Apocalypse. I know that it would be probably some or even a lot of extra work. But maybe it is worth a consideration. Could be a solution to please both crowds and like I said, ever since I understood that what looks like an XCOM-clone actually has these mechanics underlying ... mind blown. It could be doable and workable. Just my 2 cents.

 

[UnstableVoltage]

there is internal testing for multiple shots per turn (each using X amount of TUs)

Fixed or percentage cost like X-COM?

I don't actually have any details on that. All I know is that it is being tested. That said, the "stats" mechanics for soldiers hasn't been implemented yet, so all soldiers are currently equal - which means either method would have the same results.

 

[UnstableVoltage]

About the hybrid system

About your work at Snapshot Games

Thank you so much for these two in detail posts. That actually proves that I have made quiet some wrong assumptions and as I said, I have absolutely no problem in admitting that. All I want to do in this thread is to gather information, to have a solid base for discussion if people feel like it.

Like I said before, the lack of solid information often leads to wrong assumptions. If there were more information readily available people like me could not do these wrong assumptions in the first place. But I do understand that you have a lot of work.

What I am actually worried about with how you described the hybrid-system is that you might go to much into the XCOM-direction (heh, I am pretty sure nobody expected that from me). Seriously I still would wish that full control about stances and facing would make it into the game, that would be the icing on the cake, but there is not much gained if the project fails commercially because it is to complex for the masses. I have not realized that what was shown in the PCGamer Weekender had this underlying mechanics. What I thought about is this, how about doing two systems, so players can decided with wich system they want to play the game? Julian Gollop has done it in the past with X-Com Apocalypse. I know that it would be probably some or even a lot of extra work. But maybe it is worth a consideration. Could be a solution to please both crowds and like I said, ever since I understood that what looks like an XCOM-clone actually has these mechanics underlying ... mind blown. It could be doable and workable. Just my 2 cents.

I really think we're trying to strike a balance. True, there are no facings for soldiers at the moment. There are also no stance changes (although some of this does happen automatically when adjacent to cover). Most of these changes are the improve the pacing from the original X-Com, where shuffling your entire squad forward one tile at a time and then having to rotate multiple times, then crouch, then stand up again before moving...... x26 soldiers on a full Avenger - lead to some really long and slow turns. It also meant that you required a much larger pool of TUs to accommodate all of these lesser actions.

This can all be simplified by giving soldiers a smaller pool (for example 14 TUs), which would be 14 tiles of movement, or say, 3 shots if they're weapon took 6 TUs to fire.

 

[ArchAngel]

About the hybrid system

About your work at Snapshot Games

Thank you so much for these two in detail posts. That actually proves that I have made quiet some wrong assumptions and as I said, I have absolutely no problem in admitting that. All I want to do in this thread is to gather information, to have a solid base for discussion if people feel like it.

Like I said before, the lack of solid information often leads to wrong assumptions. If there were more information readily available people like me could not do these wrong assumptions in the first place. But I do understand that you have a lot of work.

What I am actually worried about with how you described the hybrid-system is that you might go to much into the XCOM-direction (heh, I am pretty sure nobody expected that from me). Seriously I still would wish that full control about stances and facing would make it into the game, that would be the icing on the cake, but there is not much gained if the project fails commercially because it is to complex for the masses. I have not realized that what was shown in the PCGamer Weekender had this underlying mechanics. What I thought about is this, how about doing two systems, so players can decided with wich system they want to play the game? Julian Gollop has done it in the past with X-Com Apocalypse. I know that it would be probably some or even a lot of extra work. But maybe it is worth a consideration. Could be a solution to please both crowds and like I said, ever since I understood that what looks like an XCOM-clone actually has these mechanics underlying ... mind blown. It could be doable and workable. Just my 2 cents.

I really think we're trying to strike a balance. True, there are no facings for soldiers at the moment. There are also no stance changes (although some of this does happen automatically when adjacent to cover). Most of these changes are the improve the pacing from the original X-Com, where shuffling your entire squad forward one tile at a time and then having to rotate multiple times, then crouch, then stand up again before moving...... x26 soldiers on a full Avenger - lead to some really long and slow turns. It also meant that you required a much larger pool of TUs to accommodate all of these lesser actions.

This can all be simplified by giving soldiers a smaller pool (for example 14 TUs), which would be 14 tiles of movement, or say, 3 shots if they're weapon took 6 TUs to fire.

I hope facing can at least be implemented for Overwatch shots. When your whole attention is to shoot someone first as soon as they appear it is not possible to do that in 360 degrees. This will also make it so it is less optimal to overwatch crawl in PP (which you have not fixed when soldiers can rest one turn to recover willpower points).

 

[Grotesque]

. Most of these changes are the improve the pacing from the original X-Com, where shuffling your entire squad forward one tile at a time and then having to rotate multiple times, then crouch, then stand up again before moving...... x26 soldiers on a full Avenger -.

What's the purpose of the "26 soldiers full Avenger" example in this context when PP will have small squads?

Also look what Battletech game did with facing when moving units.
Setting the direction of view angles is easily and immediately done after the player is selecting the location to move in a unit.

Setting the crouch stance for a certain soldier can/would be automatically done if time units are reserved for this stance by pressing a button on the UI or keyboard shortcut.
If the move destination would be in the open of behind small cover, he would automatically assume the crouch position at the destination.

If the destination is behind a high cover (and thus the crouch position is obsolete in this case) the soldier would not crouch, would not consume the needed TUs and can engage in other actions with the spared TUs like reloading of accessing the inventory.

EDIT: if the high cover is destroyed during enemy's turn, the soldier would automatically assume the crouch position during enemy turn if the reserved TUs for crouching were not consumed on other actions on player's turn.

EDIT 2: on view angles

How awesome would be if helmets upgrades would increase the soldier's view angle and thus enabling a wider multitude of options for reaction shots.

All culminating with helmets that grant a view angle at the back of the soldier, enabling him reaction shots even in that area

 

[luinthoron]

Main problem with facing and TUs in the original X-Com was that your soldier could have tried to take a reaction shot with the reserved TUs but not have enough TUs left after turning. This would likely not be a problem with an Overwatch mechanic that ignores the TU cost for turning (with the lower accuracy and damage / number of bullets fired, it would still make sense) or simply making rotating a soldier not cost any TUs at all and be considered a normal part of moving or shooting with a soldier (which would also let you turn your soldier after the move if the new situation warrants it without losing the chance to fire).

As for stances, I don't see making them a free action as sensible a solution for these as for facing, but unless the movement range indicator can be updated to show two or three different outlines depending on the TU you need left to crouch (or possibly lie down as well, you can see how I'm being influenced by the Jagged Alliance series here), it may still be the way to go, if clearly the easy way out. On the other hand, it would certainly be nice to also implement (slower) movement in these stances like in JA(2) and possible aim bonuses due to the additional weapon stability.

 

[Israfael]

You don't have to add in additional arbitrary principles to the model - you can just do the following - substract the TUs that are needed to turn from the initiative score of the soldier that is about to do a reaction shot - if turn takes too long (as in real life situation), his fast reaction won't save him and the opponent would shoot first (as in - if (reaction_alien + TUcost_victim) > reaction_victim, then reaction shot is cancelled and alien proceeds with his action). The same applies to the opposite situation.

Most of these changes are the improve the pacing from the original X-Com, where shuffling your entire squad forward one tile at a time and then having to rotate multiple times, then crouch, then stand up again before moving...... x26 soldiers on a full Avenger - lead to some really long and slow turns.

First, it's a player's decision - some overly impatient (or uber-pro player) people can roll through all 26 squaddies in the same time as one overcautious player moves one soldier and switches to another. Second, you can just implement variable game speed - more people you have, the faster their movement would be. And third, it'd require more time to do the same with 26-strong squad with 2-phase system as you can't make your decisions on the fly like it's possible with TUs, moving a bit and reacting to new threats/ other factors.

 

[Mustawd]

UnstableVoltage , kudos for trying your best to address us old grumpy old men. I know your job is hard. And I get the feeling that, while you wish for more x-comish stuff, you're proud of what the dev team has accomplished. Personally, I hold PP to a high standard, which is why I kinda get disappointed in some stuff I hear.

However, I do like a lot of improvements form the original; XCOM. If anything, I'm hoping PP is the modern reboot of x-com that we shoulda gotten in 2012.

07.

Cheers mate. Keep doing your thing. We bitch and moan, but it's cuz we fucking love these old ass games.

 

[Shog-goth]

the firm has launched its own pre-order initiative that, according to Kaye, is currently delivering $100,000 a month.

UnstableVoltage Can you elaborate a little more more this aspect, if you have some knowledge about it? I am aware that this is a sensitive subject, but I found this affirmation astonishing and I'd like to be sure that the interviewer didn't misinterpret Kaye's words.

 

[UnstableVoltage]

the firm has launched its own pre-order initiative that, according to Kaye, is currently delivering $100,000 a month.

UnstableVoltage Can you elaborate a little more more this aspect, if you have some knowledge about it? I am aware that this is a sensitive subject, but I found this affirmation astonishing and I'd like to be sure that the interviewer didn't misinterpret Kaye's words.

I can't really give you more information than that - but that is correct. Currently, the pre-orders are totalling around $100k per month, on average.

 

[agris]

I think what causes some confusion is the "movement" ranges on the UI - as at a quick glance you'd be forgiven for thinking they're just the same 1AP/2AP-Dash system from XCOM. We were using it simply to show how far you can safely move before not having enough TUs to use your currently equipped weapon. (We're also adding a "TU bar" as a visual representation of your TUs (the bar live updates as you hover over tiles/actions)).

UnstableVoltage Underrail uses a really elegant, information rich graphic for representing TUs (called APs in Underrail) and help you manage the various costs of movement and actions during combat.

What you're seeing is the total amount of TUs representing by a stack, which each TU a slice. Highlighted chunks represent the current cost for whatever weapon or action you have selected, then as you move your mouse to various tiles, the movement cost is shown as a subtraction on the stack with the math shown next to it. It's really quite elegant.

Please consider passing this example to the team. Here's a short video of it in action in combat:

 

[UnstableVoltage]

This is very similar to our current WIP

Excuse the janky animated GIF - I'm trying to bake a development build at the same time :D

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

How about another nasty one UnstableVoltage ?
Enemy morale effects yay/nay?

 

[UnstableVoltage]

How about another nasty one UnstableVoltage ?
Enemy morale effects yay/nay?

Could you elaborate? Are you just asking if it exists? If so, yes. Enemies can panic, as can your own soldiers.

 

[agris]

Interesting, what's with the blue vs. yellow and the slight asymmetry in how the color is distributed?

Also, the team might want to consider splitting the TU bar up into how ever many TUs the selected character has, rather than 4 abstract units. That will make it much easier to comprehend, at a glance, the cost of actions. Seeing 1.65 units disappear from that 4 unit bar is less intuitive.

 

[UnstableVoltage]

Interesting, what's with the blue vs. yellow and the slight asymmetry in how the color is distributed?

Also, the team might want to consider splitting the TU bar up into how ever many TUs the selected character has, rather than 4 abstract units. That will make it much easier to comprehend, at a glance, the cost of actions. Seeing 1.65 units disappear from that 4 unit bar is less intuitive.

I agree - the 4 "blocks" don't really tell you anything. As I said though, it is a work in progress.

As for the blue vs yellow - in the blue area you still have enough TUs to fire/use the current weapon/item - in the yellow you do not. Bear in mind that this was also added before the testing of multiple shots per turn - so it isn't really taking that into account in its current form.

The blue vs yellow split on the TU bar is also in direct relation to the blue/yellow zones that you see on the map.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

How about another nasty one UnstableVoltage ?
Enemy morale effects yay/nay?

Could you elaborate? Are you just asking if it exists? If so, yes. Enemies can panic, as can your own soldiers.

That's good enough for now.
I just didn't remember reading anything that would have spoken about possible morale effects affecting enemies.

 

[agris]

Got ya, we all understand stuff isn't going to look perfect while testing.

Glad to see the PP action system is becoming more nuanced. If there's any presentation concerns with a more discretized TU system, feel free to ask us if we're aware of how other games have handled it. You might be surprised how many UI problems older turn based games have solved. Unfortunately, many developers aren't aware of said solutions because the games only sold 10ks of copies, or were russian-only, etc etc. This site is full of people who are knowledgeable about just such things.

 

[UnstableVoltage]

Got ya, we all understand stuff isn't going to look perfect while testing.

Glad to see the PP action system is becoming more nuanced. If there's any presentation concerns with a more discretized TU system, feel free to ask us if we're aware of how other games have handled it. You might be surprised how many UI problems older turn based games have solved. Unfortunately, many developers aren't aware of said solutions because the games only sold 10ks of copies, or were russian-only, etc etc. This site is full of people who are knowledgeable about just such things.

I'll certainly pass the suggestion on to Julian and the UI team.

 

[Shog-goth]

I can't really give you more information than that - but that is correct. Currently, the pre-orders are totalling around $100k per month, on average.

So this is something not to worry about anymore, since every 100K allows at least another full month of activity for a team of 30 developers in Bulgaria. A remarkable achievement, I'm really impressed.

 

[Shog-goth]

what are the things being circled in red?

Top left: mounted shoulder-fired rockets (as seen in prototype video).

Bottom right: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...tor-julian-gollop.107625/page-92#post-5553374

 

[PanteraNera]

I must admit, my mind is still blown.

- money seems to be no major concern anymore (100k $ a month of pre-orders)

- what we have seen what looked so much like XCOM 1/2 has deep mechanics underlying that are very close to X-Com.

- they are actually testing multiple shots what brings the game mechanics even closer to X-Com.

Even if they decide against some of the features they are currently testing, there would be a solid foundation for Modders to alter the game to be more like X-Com, plus adding features like crouching and facing.

As I have stated previously, I really do not care that much for graphics, while I still think that it is a shame that they dropped the original concept of New Jericho and also I do not like the way they handled it (i.e. not communicating it upfront / asking / informing their Backers) it is no big deal for me, as I care more for the game mechanics than the visuals. Also one has to keep in mind that these 100k monthly sales are coming in with the redesigned New Jericho screenshots and video's they are showing. So even if some people would be so butthurt about it that they want a refund, it would probably have no big financial impact for Snapshot Games.