Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[roshan]

Edit: you guys also seem obsessed with Sawyer and I see I also now am talking about Sawyer did this and did that. But honestly we don't know who came up with what etc. There are 20 (?) people working on this full time so unless Sawyer is a dictator it's only fair to give other peole some ''credit'' too.

It seems all the stupid ideas come from him though.

 

[mastroego]

Something I see more clearly after reading a bit through this thread.

The problem is not that the Lead Designer wanted to create an entirely new system and a new game logic. Obviously he's entitled to that.
The problem is the fact that this project was funded via Kickstarter, and that the majority of the backers were "led to believe" that this was going to be a return to the classics.
I mean, those screenshots look *exactly* like BG2.
Is it really that surprising that people who backed this were mostly after a BG2 kind of game? I would have been if I had backed this (which I didn't precisely because I didn't know these guys)

 

[Frusciante]

I mean, those screenshots look *exactly* like BG2.
Is it really that surprising that people who backed this were mostly after a BG2 kind of game? I would have been if I had backed this (which I didn't precisely because I didn't know these guys)

It also plays and feels like a BG3 game according to some people. Some mainstream sites (gamespot I believe) even found that it's too much like the old IE. Like its just a copy.

 

[Hormalakh]

I've made this suggestion before and I've had it shot down before as "too time consuming" but I really think that each class should have its attributes defined differently.

The major decision you make in chargen is what class you want to be: and the attributes are an added "flair." I think that a lot of the problems with the attribute system come from the idea that each class (with different game mechanics) should be defined by one set of attributes that effect them equally.

This just isn't the case: what is important for one class isn't so important for another. If you want an attribute system that has viable points for every category you need to match your categories to your mechanics.

Ciphers attribute needs are different than monk attribute needs. Wizards and fighters and rangers all have different needs. With a 6 point attribute system that affects different classes differently, you can really diverge the classes further. All your classes then don't need AoE spells or durations (to make int viable) or interrupting as an important mechanic (to make perception/resolve important).

I really think this suggestion should be further evaluated and considered. It will really free up the rest of the tweaking process as well as allow classes not to hold back when making them stand out from one another. What attributes are doing are trying to fit different shapes into all the same holes. It feels wrong to the players and I'm sure it's made designing the classes tough too.

I think it would reduce the feeling that "everything is so samey and bland" and allow each person to define their character for their class. 11 classes is a lot. It makes balancing difficult, but that's the gorilla that Obsidian agreed to work with and then wanted to balance them. Time is the one thing that is needed to make a good system and if they're willing to invest the time in diverging their attribute system, then I think it will be worthwhile.

I don't think every class needs totally new attributes: some can be reusable but this one size fits all mentality doesn't work.

------

How to do it:
Go through each class and find the six mechanical components that are important for that class. Then go through each attribute and allocate an adjustment on that attribute to an adjustment to the mechanical component. For example: In creating a monk, resolve allows you to adjust (along with whatever else) an aspect of your wounds mechanic.

 

[Duraframe300]

My predictions for the future:
-PoE released in December 2014, still quite buggy, metacritic 8,2
-Heavy patching for the next 3 months
-Q1 2015 - kickstarter for the expansion, new lead designer. Obsidian gets $1-2 mil.
-Expansion released in the Q4, it's good, cozy and even more IE-like.
-Sawyer cry
- Q4 - Kickstarter for PoE2, Sawyer is only a common designer, not having much impact on the game. They are getting rid of % stats impact, overall revision of stat system. People are happy, game gets $4 mil.
-Sawyer is transferred into Armored Warfare team permanently, designing DLC's and expansions.
-Q4 2014 - Codex megathread is 9999 pages long, XenForo breaks down, all accounts deleted.

I'll hold on to that post for the future.

 

[Duraframe300]

Edit: you guys also seem obsessed with Sawyer and I see I also now am talking about Sawyer did this and did that. But honestly we don't know who came up with what etc. There are 20 (?) people working on this full time so unless Sawyer is a dictator it's only fair to give other peole some ''credit'' too.

Well

Partly this is Roguey and partly because of Sawyer's wording and history going back to the Interplay forum days.

There has never not been a time where Sawyer discussions weren't a thing. Same reason from time to time someone can turn up a controversial Sawyer quote that is nearly a decade+ years old. He started out as webmaster/active forum member after all.

 

[Frusciante]

Edit: you guys also seem obsessed with Sawyer and I see I also now am talking about Sawyer did this and did that. But honestly we don't know who came up with what etc. There are 20 (?) people working on this full time so unless Sawyer is a dictator it's only fair to give other peole some ''credit'' too.

Well

Partly this is Roguey and partly because of Sawyer's wording and history going back to the Interplay forum days.

There has never not been a time where Sawyer discussions weren't a thing. Same reason from time to time someone can turn up a controversial Sawyer quote that is nearly a decade+ years old. He started out as webmaster/active forum member after all.

Ah, ok. I only know him from this project.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

What a bunch of idiots in this thread.

I noticed that too, the tide of stupidity that is this thread is overwhelming. Especially from people who haven't played the game, the more posts I read the more embarrassing the whole thing becomes, especially when you contrast it with the reception elsewhere. And yes, the sawyer butthurt is pretty serious, I bet if you did a word search for both Sawyer and PoE you'd get about the same results.

Basically, 1000% of the posts in this thread are the worst thing ever.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

I noticed that too, the tide of stupidity that is this thread is overwhelming.
...
Basically, 1000% of the posts in this thread are the worst thing ever.

To me it looks like the usual Codex mix of some serious, considered feedback with trolling, OTT reactions and jokes. Same as other releases really. Games like WL2 and DivOS, and just about everything else, also received more criticism here "when you contrast it with the reception elsewhere".

OK, there is extra Sawyer butthurt in this case, have to concede that, but it was inevitable.

 

[MicoSelva]

Sawyer obsession is quite obvious. Usually we do not know exactly who designed various systems, so words like 'they' or the developer company name are sued ('they fucked this up', 'Obsidian could have done better here'), but in this case, it was known from the start who the lead designer and project's face is, so JES is naturally associated with PoE more than anyone, and therefore blamed for its faults, either real or imaginary.

Unless people start blaming him for bugs or lack of polish (like characters not being distinct enough from the background) too. That would be just silly.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

I noticed that too, the tide of stupidity that is this thread is overwhelming.
...
Basically, 1000% of the posts in this thread are the worst thing ever.

To me it looks like the usual Codex mix of some serious, considered feedback with trolling, OTT reactions and jokes. Same as other releases really. Games like WL2 and DivOS, and just about everything else, also received more criticism here "when you contrast it with the reception elsewhere".

OK, there is extra Sawyer butthurt in this case, have to concede that, but it was inevitable.

If Roguey is reverse white knighting, does that mean Sawyer is doing reverse PR with this game?
Maybe it just seems worse because I don't know who the trolls are. I tend to just take what they say as genuine, little did I know that they were pulling a clever ruse.

Spoiler

 

[Sensuki]

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67677-sensukis-suggestions-009-inventory-and-item-tooltips/

Going through the 00 Agents, we're up to Peter Smith from Thunderball and Octopussy (009).



Here I have made a video about the inventory screen and made some suggestions about some additional stats from items that would be nice to be able to see in the inventory page, made some suggestions on how to properly convey what the speed of a weapon actually means and also given my opinion on the current inventory system as a whole (spoiler: not very good).

A comment I made about where to display Weapon Damage in the video, another solution I can think of would be to remove the huge stash/quest item buttons and put them as Text over with the Crafting Button and have the Weapon Damage under the weapon sets.

You could also but the 2D icon for the Stash and Quest items on those buttons before the text and add one to the Crafting button, so there's a visual representation of what they do. That may not be the perfect solution though, it's just something that just popped into my head, rather than a careful consideration.

Another thing I mention in the video is being able to compare items via tooltips in the inventory, and I did mention a few games that have this feature. One of them is Grim Dawn, a game which I actually have installed. So here is a screenshot from Grim Dawn that describes the type of thing that I mean. Diablo 3 also does this, but I don't have Diablo 3 installed, for reasons you can probably surmise.

http://www.upload.ee/image/4222082/GD.jpg

I have also shared my general opinion on the new Inventory system with a limited inventory and Stash, and after using it, my opinion is - it is bad. I can think of a few edge cases that might make it frustrating to use, but when I actually encounter those in the game, perhaps I'll make a video on them.

Anyway, I think that people are just going to metagame around the limited inventory and to me it's not really an interesting mechanic, but that's a topic for another day.

You could also have mouseover tooltips for the Defense, DT and Accuracy buttons and give more detailed stats - such as Melee and Ranged Accuracy, DT vs Damage types and all that stuff, another thing to consider.

 

[Abu Antar]

I can't brofist you post.

 

[Black]

Especially from people who haven't played the game,

Besides Rougey who could that be?

 

[Shadenuat]

Here I have made a video about the inventory screen

I'm not sure about all that 10 slots&stash, even in the beta you can pick up so much stuff your chars already get stocked up, and personaly I would want to keep anything of interest in the eye, not dump it into another box.
I would just make first 3 inventory slots of every char belt-slots like in BG, and allow using items from them during combat but not changing them in combat; then doubled all the slots for every char up to 20, and kept Stash for what most people would probably use it - to dump things there they want to forget about for a time.
Or like you said, make one big grid for all chars and 3-4 little belt slots for every char, somewhat like Wiz8.

 

[Frusciante]

What do you guys think about the level up UI? For me its very uninvolving. I really like NWN's leveling up UI for example.

 

[Sensuki]

Leveling up as a whole is pretty bad.

 

[Shadenuat]

It depends on class, but for now leveling is actually less interesting than your basic 3d edition D&D. Fighting classes get everything automatically, there is no choice between, say, power attack or dodge or expertise. Casters get some new abilities, some get them as often as every level, like Cipher, who is a bit like D&D Warlock and gets an incantation every level.
Meanwhile basic fighter or barb just gets everything automatically.

Game is in dire need of Feats.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Meanwhile basic fighter or barb just gets everything automatically.

So much better than D&D. Such freedom, much innovation. THE TYRANNY OF CHOICE.

 

[Frusciante]

It depends on class, but for now leveling is actually less interesting than your basic 3d edition D&D. Fighting classes get everything automatically, there is no choice between, say, power attack or dodge or expertise. Casters get some new abilities, some get them as often as every level, like Cipher, who is a bit like D&D Warlock and gets an incantation every level.
Meanwhile basic fighter or barb just gets everything automatically.

Game is in dire need of Feats.

Yes I think it's just that most of the feats have not been implemented yet.

 

[Bubbles]

Especially from people who haven't played the game, the more posts I read the more embarrassing the whole thing becomes, especially when you contrast it with the reception elsewhere

Which "elsewhere"? Kotaku? SA, where Sawyer actually posts in the discussion thread? You can't be referring to the actual backer forum, because those are the same kind of people that post here.

 

[MicoSelva]

Granted, I have not played the game myself yet, but looking at the streams and gameplay videos on YT, it feels like Health and Stamina would work better if they were reversed.

Bear with me now, please.

This is how it would work: your character's health gets damaged (and can be healed), and if it runs out, he is maimed (or dies if already maimed). At the same time, stamina is damaged with 1/4 (1/6 barbarians) of the amount (and it cannot be healed). If it runs out, character goes unconscious.

None of these auto-heal between fights, stamina is only restored on rest.

This way health-managament would work almost like in IE, except you would need to rest eventually, or your guys would just get instantly knocked-out because of long-term exhaustion.

Why do I think it would work better than the current system?

1. You would need to take care about healing between combat (no auto-regen).
2. Your almost-exhausted character could still fight and not risk dying after being flicked in the nose, making rest decision an actual decision, not a necessity as it is now.
3. There would be an actual sense of danger in every encounter, currently running out of stamina is not a big deal if caharcter getting knocked out does not affect the encounter.

 

[Infinitron]

Granted, I have not played the game myself yet, but looking at the streams and gameplay videos on YT, it feels like Health and Stamina would work better if they were reversed.

Bear with me now, please.

This is how it would work: your character's health gets damaged (and can be healed), and if it runs out, he is maimed (or dies if already maimed). At the same time, stamina is damaged with 1/4 (1/6 barbarians) of the amount (and it cannot be healed). If it runs out, character goes unconscious.

None of these auto-heal between fights, stamina is only restored on rest.

This way health-managament would work almost like in IE, except you would need to rest eventually, or your guys would just get instantly knocked-out because of long-term exhaustion.

Why do I think it would work better than the current system?

1. You would need to take care about healing between combat (no auto-regen).
2. Your almost-exhausted character could still fight and not risk dying after being flicked in the nose, making rest decision an actual decision, not a necessity as it is now.
3. There would be an actual sense of danger in every encounter, currently running out of stamina is not a big deal if caharcter getting knocked out does not affect the encounter.

The stamina sounds like a superficial, simulationist element in this system. If you just want a regular health system then ask for that. There's nothing especially cool about suddenly falling asleep in the middle of combat because you lost a bunch of health in some previous fights. If you can heal yourself then why should you need to rest?

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

This is reminding me more and more of the WL2 beta thread.

The butthurt will be delicious.

 

[MicoSelva]

The stamina sounds like a superficial, simulationist element in this system. If you just want a regular health system then ask for that. There's nothing especially cool about suddenly falling asleep in the middle of combat because you lost a bunch of health in some previous fights. If you can heal yourself then why should you need to rest?

It actually has nothing to do with simulation.
Regular health system without stamina would not work because of at-will and per encounter powers, which would amount to health regen between fights. Stamina would give an incentive to rest (other than restoring per-rest abilities).