[PKFM] Using non-finessable weapons with DEX. The experiment

[Trashos]

These are the results of my experiments on the effect of Slashing/Fencing Grace on non-finessable weapons. The experiments were done with the Steam version of Pathfinder Kingmaker v2.0.8.

The actual results follow below, but here are the main conclusions:

For weapons with the Weapon Finesse trait (eg. Rapiers):
Weapon Finesse adds DEX bonus to Attack Rolls.
Slashing/Fencing Grace adds DEX bonus to Damage.

For non-finessable weapons (eg. Longswords):
Weapon Finesse adds nothing, but it is a prerequisite for Slashing/Fencing Grace.
Slashing/Fencing Grace adds DEX bonus to both Attack Rolls and Damage.

Note#1: Slashing/Fencing Grace also has a DEX 13 requirement.
Note#2: Since there is no Grace feat for bludgeoning weapons, such weapons are a really bad idea for DEX builds if they are non-finessable. In other words, do not use Heavy Maces with DEX builds.
Note#3: Slashing/Fencing Grace only becomes available if you focus on a one-handed weapon.
Note#4: Bear in mind that STR builds get 1.5x STR bonus to damage with 2-handed weapons or with 1-handed weapons when the offhand is free. DEX builds only get 1x DEX bonus to damage. This is important when you are considering whether you want to go STR or DEX.

Conclusion:
DEX builds can use one-handed non-finessable weapons effectively at the cost of Slashing/Fencing Grace, as long as these weapons are either Slashing or Piercing.


Experiments:

Spoiler

In the following cases a Human Sword Saint of lvl3 was tested. The build is STR 7 DEX 18 CON 10 INT10 WIS17 CHA11 in all cases. For attack rolls and damages a mundane non-magical weapon was used in the calculations.

Case#1: Weapons with Weapon Finesse trait

Rapier without Weapon Finesse feat: Attack Roll +1, Damage 1d6-2
Rapier with Weapon Finesse feat but without Fencing Grace: Attack Roll +7, Damage 1d6-2
Rapier with Weapon Finesse feat and Fencing Grace feat: Attack Roll +7, Damage 1d6+4

Dueling Sword without Weapon Finesse feat: Attack Roll +1, Damage 1d8-2
Dueling Sword with Weapon Finesse feat but without Slashing Grace: Attack Roll +7, Damage 1d8-2
Dueling Sword with Weapon Finesse feat and Slashing Grace feat: Attack Roll +7, Damage 1d8+4

Case#2: Weapons without Weapon Finesse trait

Longword without Weapon Finesse feat: Attack Roll +1, Damage 1d8-2
Longsword with Weapon Finesse feat but without Slashing Grace: Attack Roll +1, Damage 1d8-2
Longsword with Weapon Finesse feat and Slashing Grace feat: Attack Roll +7, Damage 1d8+4

Trident without Weapon Finesse feat: Attack Roll +1, Damage 1d8-2
Trident with Weapon Finesse feat but without Fencing Grace: Attack Roll +1, Damage 1d8-2
Trident with Weapon Finesse feat and Fencing Grace feat: Attack Roll +7, Damage 1d8+4

Heavy Mace without Weapon Finesse feat: Attack Roll +1, Damage 1d8-2
Heavy Mace with Weapon Finesse feat but without a Grace feat: Attack Roll +1, Damage 1d8-2
Heavy Mace with Weapon Finesse feat and a Grace feat: Not possible, as no Grace feat is available

 

[panda]

Having Deft Strike enables 1.5 multiplier from DEX to Grace's target weapon btw. And 2H fighter's shenanigans will use DEX instead of STR too IIRC.

This means that you can with full efficiency finesse wield even Ovinrbaane/Graveyard of Giants (for a kek price of 3 feats and a wasted level ).

 

[Yosharian]

Is this COTW content?

 

[Trashos]

Yosharian, I do not have any mods installed. Game version 2.0.8.

 

[CappenVarra]

tbh, this seems like a bug with Slashing Grace implementing an attack bonus of its own (for all slashing weapons) that replaces the Weapon Finesse one instead of just adding damage on top of it?

 

[Trashos]

CappenVarra, it could be. But the practical effect is that DEX builds can use the beautiful STR weapons by spending a feat. This is interesting for gameplay. So if it is a bug, they should probably let it be. It is more practical than asking Owlcat to create another few weapons for DEX builds.

 

[Yosharian]

CappenVarra, it could be. But the practical effect is that DEX builds can use the beautiful STR weapons by spending a feat. This is interesting for gameplay. So if it is a bug, they should probably let it be. It is more practical than asking Owlcat to create another few weapons for DEX builds.

Do these feats work with 2H weapons?

 

[panda]

It makes sense tbh because Swashbuckler is not in the game. So they probably intentionally expanded feat functionality.

CappenVarra, it could be. But the practical effect is that DEX builds can use the beautiful STR weapons by spending a feat. This is interesting for gameplay. So if it is a bug, they should probably let it be. It is more practical than asking Owlcat to create another few weapons for DEX builds.

Do these feats work with 2H weapons?

Only with oversized bastard swords.

 

[Trashos]

Do these feats work with 2H weapons?

Good question. Slashing/Fencing Grace only becomes available for 1-handed weapons. So it won't be available for 2-handed. Bastard Swords can be either 1-handed or 2-handed, so the feat becomes available for them. I haven't really checked to see if it provides results for the 2-handed version, though.

I updated OP.

PS. I haven't checked what happens if you focus on a slashing one-handed, take Slashing Grace, and then focus on a slashing 2-handed (ie, Longsword focus --> Slashing Grace --> Greataxe). I might check if people are interested.

 

[Trashos]

All right, did some more tests.

Slashing Grace indeed works for the 2-handed Bastard Sword, it does get the DEX bonus to Attack Rolls. So panda was right.
Keep in mind that Slashing Grace only becomes available for Bastard Swords, because they can be one-handed too. In the general case, the Slashing/Fencing Grace feat does not become available for 2-handed types of weapons.

I checked whether you can fool the system by focusing on Longswords, getting Slashing Grace for Longswords, and then focusing on Greataxes. But no, Slashing Grace is attached strictly to the the specific weapon focus for which you got it, ie Longswords. Greataxes do not get the DEX bonus. Good programming there.

 

[Yosharian]

Good lord. So you can use it with stuff like Ovinrbaane? Are you getting 1.5x DEX to damage or just 1x?

 

[Yosharian]

My thought here is, I'm wondering if the game even checks for the off-hand being free, since we already know it doesn't for stuff like Crane Wing

 

[Desiderius]

Can’t do it where you really need it (ECB and Twin Crystals).

Whole discussion is entirely moot because there are all kinds of great DEX weapons. Trash refuses to state his criteria or provide any examples because he knows he’d get owned.

He’s got Sword Saint tunnel vision where it’s an issue because of the extra feats (and missing the multiplier abuse with Enlarge effects + Perfect Crit/Strike). Hap wanted the big dice of the weapons Trash lusts for for those multiplier shenanigans.

Normal people grab the great Rogue 4 package or go Aldori if they want to play DEX-based.

Real men go WIS-based CMs.

 

[Trashos]

Good lord. So you can use it with stuff like Ovinrbaane? Are you getting 1.5x DEX to damage or just 1x?

I cannot test Armag's weapon in my testing setup, but I could test Akaia's Honor, a 2-handed Bastard Sword that Amiri gets from her quest. No, it does not get 1.5x DEX to damage, it only gets 1x.


EDIT: OP updated with Note#4.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

Real men go WIS-based CMs.

Wis-based CMs? What's dis?

Also, does WotR allow CMs as a unit of a full attack now?

 

[Yosharian]

Good lord. So you can use it with stuff like Ovinrbaane? Are you getting 1.5x DEX to damage or just 1x?

I cannot test Armag's weapon in my testing setup, but I could test Akaia's Honor, a 2-handed Bastard Sword that Amiri gets from her quest. No, it does not get 1.5x DEX to damage, it only gets 1x.


EDIT: OP updated with Note#4.

Aww. Ok. Hmm.

 

[Desiderius]

Real men go WIS-based CMs.

Wis-based CMs? What's dis?

Also, does WotR allow CMs as a unit of a full attack now?

Sensei doesn’t get Flurry but does get WIS to hit and full BAB so mise well run around Blinding things while singing your song. Go Pummeling for Pounce with two auto-Trips too.