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Planescape RPG (PbtA)

Silva

Arcane
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,781
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
This quarantine was making me crazy and I decided to get back to my Planescape Pbta hack.

It's more inspired by the Torment videogame than the actual tabletop stuff, in case something looks weird.

This will be the playbook template. Each playbook is a faction. I'll try to do one each couple days until all factions are done. I'm using both the original Diterlizzi art and also Yoshitaka Amano' s.

Any thoughts are appreciated. Lithium Flower , if you can have a look, it would be cool.

Class notes: I'm envisioning The Xaositech here as a chance manipulator of sorts. His moves reflect that:

_____


Front
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Back
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I will give it a deeper look later but I highly recommend using the Sundered World (that is more inspired by Spelljammers but certainly has more than traces of Planescape in it) as an inspiration as to how to design a cosmopolitan game. In that every race is its own mini playbook with a around 10 moves and you can mix and match it with any class playbook, so your pool of available moves and therefore the character building possibilities. This sidesteps the issue with every class only being able to be represented by a couple of races, which feels instantly wrong to me for a cosmopolitan belief = power setting.

So perhaps make a full sized playbook for every faction (fuck classes anyway) and a 10 move mini playbook for every race? Obviously a lot to ask but I think that would do the concept more justice and you can incorporate things like moves that require a certain race+faction synergy for example.
 

Silva

Arcane
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,781
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
I will give it a deeper look later but I highly recommend using the Sundered World (that is more inspired by Spelljammers but certainly has more than traces of Planescape in it) as an inspiration as to how to design a cosmopolitan game. In that every race is its own mini playbook with a around 10 moves and you can mix and match it with any class playbook, so your pool of available moves and therefore the character building possibilities. This sidesteps the issue with every class only being able to be represented by a couple of races, which feels instantly wrong to me for a cosmopolitan belief = power setting.

So perhaps make a full sized playbook for every faction (fuck classes anyway) and a 10 move mini playbook for every race? Obviously a lot to ask but I think that would do the concept more justice and you can incorporate things like moves that require a certain race+faction synergy for example.
Yep, that was my original idea. Then I got lazy and made races into a couple moves and tags, like in default Dungeon World. Any player can pick any race though (I have 9 of them in a separate sheet right now), those 3 are just suggestions that I think go well with that playbook.

I will take a look at Sundered World to see how it does it. Thanks. Don't know if I'm inclined to create full racial playbooks, but let's see. Maybe Sundered World could make it easy in a "copy and paste and change names" way.
 
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A few general things from consuming and writing a lot of PBTA content.

"Roll with x instead of y to do z move" without any conditions leads to minmaxing cancer. PBTA systems generally don't offer enough options for character building to be particularly complex (Sundered World being an exception and, I like to think, my own yet-and-likely-never released little cyberpunk thing) so these moves lead to players coasting on a single stat - I'm sure you know by now that the game's stakes can die once the character starts consistently rolling at a +3 or, god forbid, above that, and all this moves does means the player gets even more mileage out of their main stat. I think the best ways to allow characters to excel at aspects of moves that they should be good at yet are not mechanically incentivized to pursue is to make these moves conditional. So for example, I would be okay with Litany of Curses if it was "roll + Chaos when you manipulate someone by taunting or threatening them." Or whatever.

I appreciate the thematics behind your five main stats but it seems like you are going to have quite OP characters and, like I said, the stakes in these games tend to plummet once people hit +3s. That can be sort of okay when its halfway through a campaign and the fronts are advancing and the Powers That Be are figuring out where the PCs' vulnerabilities are, but in your system you can have a +3, +2, +1, -1, -2 distribution from the get-go and that's pretty fucking metal especially when coupled with moves such as Litany of Curses. Then you start with 2 entire moves, which isn't problematic if you want players to start having interesting abilities faster but it is a problem when the move is get +1Stat, please and thank you. And then you've got a free +1 ongoing in your home turf and...yeah you see where I am going with this (maybe substitute for "once per session when you are in your home *whatever* hold x; spend a hold and describe how your attunement with the place helps you and gain +1 forward) So yeah, I would remove the option to tack on a +1 during chargen at least, if not consider introducing an extra stat and smoothing out the curve to +2, +1, +0, -1 (perhaps Will? Spirit? Idklmao).

The alignment example is fucking great though, I approve. That's how these things should be I think - the player intentionally gimping himself in some substantive manner to trigger the xp key.

Yep, that was my original idea. Then I got lazy and made races into a couple moves and tags. Any player can pick any race (I have 9 of them in a separate sheet right now), those three there are just suggestions that I think go well with the faction playbook.

I will take a look at Sundered World to see how it does it. Thanks. Don't know if I'm inclined to create full racial playbooks, though. But let's see. Maybe Sundered World could make it easy in a "copy and paste and change names" way.

Seeing as how most SW races are just reskinned D&D races (including the planar ones) that is indeed likely. SW has its own problems with power creeps (you can sometimes stack like three hundred +1s on a single action) but with some house rules (I used +4 being the maximum modifier for any roll with conditional modifiers blowing through to the next action as long as they still apply), re-fluffing, and touch-ups you should be able to convert it to run Planescape just fine. Also look into The Green Law of Varkith supplement for ideas as to how to represent guilds and institutions and general planescape-in-dungeon-world fuckery - I didn't find anything particularly inspiring last time I checked the book but I also never intended to run a full on Planescape campaign so your mileage may vary.

Sorry if this is a lot, but I'm sure you understand that if you ask 5 GMs to review your system thing you will get 20 strong opinions so, you know, yeah.
 

Silva

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
4,781
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
That's golden shit, Lithium. Thanks. The tight conditions for Litany of Curses is perfect. As is the limitation on starting stats. I'm tweaking them now. I'll take out the "then add +1 to a stat of your choice" or maybe I'll simply state +2 is the max starting value for stats. The Xaositech is an exception of sorts - I want to give the possibility for their Chaos to be overpowering high because it's the most chaotic of the factions. That's why she has the "Total Whacknut" move as an option (+1 to Chaos/-1 to Order), which could make her start with +3 in chaos. But no other playbook will have such a alignment power. Okay, maybe the Guvner (Fraternity of Order) for the Order stat.

Since you're here, take a look at basic and planes moves. It's in a more Beta stage than the playbook...

Planes moves
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Basic moves
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Sure if thats the only example of a stat-raising move I think that is permissible since having higher Chaos also gimps your order.

Some feelings in no particular order:

-Read a sitch-thing - honestly, as to the +1 towards acting on the answers, in my experience no one remembers this even when asking a single answer, let alone three. Evidently not even the people who made DW remembered it because it was absent from the 2nd edition print by mistake (ok thats not even their fault really but I will shit on DW every chance I can okay). Something I'm experimenting with going forward is making this move a bit like "When you read a situation/study a person/etc, ask the GM a question and roll + X. On a hit, the GM does not have to answer directly. On a 10+, the information should be useful and immediately actionable; on a 7-9, it should merely be useful. On a fail, GM makes a move." This eliminates the hypothetical situation of the player asking a question like "Is Mr. Johnson going to betray me at the end of this run" and getting a straight answer without the clumsiness of using preset questions. The difference between the 7-9 answer vs a 10+ answer to that question could be "he does look pretty shifty but he is a fixer after all; however, when he lit his cigarette earlier you recognized the branding on the match box as associated with x venue. If he is a regular then perhaps you could gather information about his off-time there, see what kind of person he is?" vs all of the above plus: "he also brought his attache with you and that is where he stowed away his tablet which he used to take notes throughout his entire conversation. Get the tablet and you will probably get your answer." Of course the key here is that while the GM does not have to answer the question directly he also must be truthful; the lead that the GM suggests must contain the answers to the presented question. For more obvious questions, the answer might of course be more direct. That's essentially Reveal the Dark, with some elaboration, except for all your trivia and perception needs (do you really need 4 moves to gather information in different contexts though?).

That's just me, though.

-Again I think Planar effects is XP done well in a PBTA game, so very very well done on that front. Excellent way to mechanically cement the romance of exploring the planes. However, these effects should still have some role to play even when the party is for example fully leveled (or simply not interested in pursuing xp) so find some other way for them to come into play. Maybe whenever you roll a 6- on that plane, the GM can choose to hit you with that move, ie forcing you to run away when in Gehenna? Of course the persistent conditions are always in play, but they are ultimately boring penalties (but quite necessary to counteract stat bloat, so good thinking there) and lack the excellent way the planar effects reflect their planes. Shaken as a planar condition, though? That's gonna be a "holy fuck" from me, dawg. Maybe have it so that the base condition is always a penalty to a specific moves, but that gets upgraded to shaken if you are aligned *against* the plane. I can easily see that resulting in mixed alignment parties having players boycott ever going to any plane because its totally, like, going to fuck their shit up, but thats still discourages plane exploration less than the current system.

As a side note, and I understand that this comes with the territory, but morality is fucking stupid (in real life as well as in fiction). Yeah I get it, its a fundamental part of the Planescape cosmology, but at least leave some room for interpretation by avoiding phrasing such as "when being evil to others" as is in the Gray Waste's effect. Instead baator's or carceri's effect is much better, although even baator has problems = what if you are helping someone to exploit them, or vice versa? That's how them cool enlightened egoist cats do, brah.

-Plenty has been written about the problems of "Act Under Pressure" being a retarded catch-all and making its stat the best stat. Its not like we must strive for Sawyerist balance, but I think DW actually did it quite well by delegating its roll to every stat. With only 3 real stats and 2 ideological stats, you can make it nice and simple. Have it roll against body for physical pressures, soul for metaphysical pressures, and mind for intellectual pressures. I might be butchering your conception of mind/body/soul so of course adjust to your liking. This might naturally deflate the value of mind so you will have to find some other way to compensate. Still I think that is preferable to the alternative. Also how does this not overlap with Put the Blinds? Is leaving a situation quickly/stealthily not acting under pressure?

-Oh I see, so Torque it off is based on that one intimidation move from Apocalypse World. Honestly, this is the move I have always understood the least, especially the esoteric - to put it mildly - way that Baker recommends using it in lieu of the combat move. I've been streamlining PBTA more and more and in my opinion this is a kind of thing that really does not need a move because it can be intuitively answered by the GM. Someone puts a gun up to your head and tells you to hand over your wallet - what do you do? You're a loyal soldier and someone pulls a knife on you and threatens to stab you if you don't let them into your boss' compound, what do you do? If you really have to think about it, then have it be the parley/social move, because at that point intimidation is just one of the many factors in this negotiation, you are not instinctively responding to the threat of violence, you are bargaining with it.

-Help or Interfere depending on alignment is very clever. Again might reinforce SaMe aLiGnMENt PartY PL0x people but they should fuck off and die so who gives a shit am I right hehhheh

-For Nick the Berg. First of all, nice phrasing on the 3rd option, it was by far one of my favorite aspects of any move in AW but the original wording of the move confused a lot of people. However: "take +1 forward if appropriate". UGH. I like PBTA's brand of story gaming but I still hate mechanical ambiguity. Either give the bonus or not. It could be a conditional modifier, like "gain a +1 forward if you retain your position." So if the third option is you disarming a guy, you get that +1 forward as long as he is still disarmed - but if you let the opportunity slip, or attempt something where the position of having disarmed someone doesn't matter, you lose the bonus. This accounts for the edge cases I suspect you were thinking of when deciding to give the GM the discretion of either giving or witholding the +1 bonus without being a terrible mechanic.

UwU
 

Silva

Arcane
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,781
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Sure if thats the only example of a stat-raising move I think that is permissible since having higher Chaos also gimps your order.

Some feelings in no particular order:

-Read a sitch-thing - honestly, as to the +1 towards acting on the answers, in my experience no one remembers this even when asking a single answer, let alone three. Evidently not even the people who made DW remembered it because it was absent from the 2nd edition print by mistake (ok thats not even their fault really but I will shit on DW every chance I can okay). Something I'm experimenting with going forward is making this move a bit like "When you read a situation/study a person/etc, ask the GM a question and roll + X. On a hit, the GM does not have to answer directly. On a 10+, the information should be useful and immediately actionable; on a 7-9, it should merely be useful. On a fail, GM makes a move." This eliminates the hypothetical situation of the player asking a question like "Is Mr. Johnson going to betray me at the end of this run" and getting a straight answer without the clumsiness of using preset questions. The difference between the 7-9 answer vs a 10+ answer to that question could be "he does look pretty shifty but he is a fixer after all; however, when he lit his cigarette earlier you recognized the branding on the match box as associated with x venue. If he is a regular then perhaps you could gather information about his off-time there, see what kind of person he is?" vs all of the above plus: "he also brought his attache with you and that is where he stowed away his tablet which he used to take notes throughout his entire conversation. Get the tablet and you will probably get your answer." Of course the key here is that while the GM does not have to answer the question directly he also must be truthful; the lead that the GM suggests must contain the answers to the presented question. For more obvious questions, the answer might of course be more direct. That's essentially Reveal the Dark, with some elaboration, except for all your trivia and perception needs (do you really need 4 moves to gather information in different contexts though?).
Read a Sitch actually works well for our games. Its kinda raw, and could be better, but its seviceable. Your suggestion is not bad though (I think it's how it works in Dungeon World?). I will think about it.


-Again I think Planar effects is XP done well in a PBTA game, so very very well done on that front. Excellent way to mechanically cement the romance of exploring the planes. However, these effects should still have some role to play even when the party is for example fully leveled (or simply not interested in pursuing xp) so find some other way for them to come into play. Maybe whenever you roll a 6- on that plane, the GM can choose to hit you with that move, ie forcing you to run away when in Gehenna?
You have a point. I'll think a way to put it this there.

Shaken as a planar condition, though? That's gonna be a "holy fuck" from me, dawg. Maybe have it so that the base condition is always a penalty to a specific moves, but that gets upgraded to shaken if you are aligned *against* the plane. I can easily see that resulting in mixed alignment parties having players boycott ever going to any plane because its totally, like, going to fuck their shit up, but thats still discourages plane exploration less than the current system.
Those conditions only apply on planes of different alignment than you (you missed the "Enter a Plane" basic move). So a Xaositech in Limbo would get no conditions whatever. In fact, he would get instantly Inspired (both there and on the Hive), as per his "Headquarters and Homeplane" stuff in the front page of the playbook (under "Alignment", take a look).

As a side note, and I understand that this comes with the territory, but morality is fucking stupid (in real life as well as in fiction). Yeah I get it, its a fundamental part of the Planescape cosmology, but at least leave some room for interpretation by avoiding phrasing such as "when being evil to others" as is in the Gray Waste's effect. Instead baator's or carceri's effect is much better, although even baator has problems = what if you are helping someone to exploit them, or vice versa? That's how them cool enlightened egoist cats do, brah.
Again, you're right. Changing it.

-Plenty has been written about the problems of "Act Under Pressure" being a retarded catch-all and making its stat the best stat. Its not like we must strive for Sawyerist balance, but I think DW actually did it quite well by delegating its roll to every stat. With only 3 real stats and 2 ideological stats, you can make it nice and simple. Have it roll against body for physical pressures, soul for metaphysical pressures, and mind for intellectual pressures. I might be butchering your conception of mind/body/soul so of course adjust to your liking. This might naturally deflate the value of mind so you will have to find some other way to compensate. Still I think that is preferable to the alternative. Also how does this not overlap with Put the Blinds? Is leaving a situation quickly/stealthily not acting under pressure?
...and again. I'll change it.

-Oh I see, so Torque it off is based on that one intimidation move from Apocalypse World. Honestly, this is the move I have always understood the least, especially the esoteric - to put it mildly - way that Baker recommends using it in lieu of the combat move. I've been streamlining PBTA more and more and in my opinion this is a kind of thing that really does not need a move because it can be intuitively answered by the GM. Someone puts a gun up to your head and tells you to hand over your wallet - what do you do? You're a loyal soldier and someone pulls a knife on you and threatens to stab you if you don't let them into your boss' compound, what do you do? If you really have to think about it, then have it be the parley/social move, because at that point intimidation is just one of the many factors in this negotiation, you are not instinctively responding to the threat of violence, you are bargaining with it.
Yeah, I'm taking it out. In fact, I see now that this is too much "copy pasta" from Apoc World. Not only I'll be taking this out but I'll also think on moves that reflect the premise more.

- - -

Going forward, I think I'll change the Inspired and Shaken conditions. +1 or -1 sounds lame and everybody tends to forget it anyway. What about this instead:

- Inspired: When you are inspired, shift your main alignment stat up +1.
- Shaken: When you're shaken, shift your main alignment stat down -1.

(remember: when Chaos goes up Order goes down, and vice-versa)

This way it's better and more thematic, I think. When you're shaken you're shaken in your convictions and belief, as per planescape ethos, and this is better reflected by the alignment stats than a simple +1 ongoing.
 
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Silva

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
4,781
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Ok, some alternate shit that came to mind..

1. Ditch all stats altogether and leave only Chaos and Order, still opposite and shifting up and down as you do things in the game.

2. Have clear moves that make alignments shift. The game is as much about adventuring in crazy places as is keeping up with your nature and beliefs. Then tie faction moves to it, so if you're Xaositech your moves stop working if you go Neutral or Ordered.

3. Have all basic moves coming from it. Fight? Roll chaos. Read a situation? Roll order. But if you're a Xaositech? well you may have a move that let's you read a sitch with chaos (pattern in chaos and all that).

4. Reduce the basic moves to a handful ones and list them in the faction playbooks together with their specific ones. The list shouldn't go above 10.

5. Conditions? give you +1 to some moves and -1 to others. Are you Enraged? get +1 to Fight but -1 to influence. Afraid? +1 to run away -1 to fight. in this new context "Inspired" could go back to giving +1 ongoing and "Shaken" -1 ongoing, I think.

Hmmm... this would be much simpler than the original idea. Could it work?


Edit: layout preview of a previous version..

(I've found out Yoshitaka Amano and Diterlizzi go really well together)

119.png


120.png


121.png


122.png
 
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You used a part of the excellent japanese book cover illustration of the second book in the series as the Anarchist's illustration. The series is called the Book of the New Sun and its like nothing else in the fantasy genre so I do recommend checking it out.

Regarding comments on your system, will be getting back to that in a bit.
 

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