PoE Expansion Ranting Thread

[Lacrymas]

Right, but what the fuck does that have to do with Pillars, exactly? You can turn WM from mid-game content into end-game content, with one click of a button when you first enter it..

You can't though. If you fall down the hole at the end there is no turning back and you can't continue playing after the end boss. AND If you have it installed and casually complete side quests you are going to outlevel end-game by a huge margin, making it trivial, no matter when you decide to tackle the expansion content.

 

[Roguey]

You can't though. If you fall down the hole at the end there is no turning back and you can't continue playing after the end boss. AND If you have it installed and casually complete side quests you are going to outlevel end-game by a huge margin, making it trivial, no matter when you decide to tackle the expansion content.

The game makes a pre-endgame autosave, if you delete that, it's on you.

With the expansion installed, it also optionally level scales the final area.

 

[Lacrymas]

The game makes a pre-endgame autosave, if you delete that, it's on you.

With the expansion installed, it also optionally level scales the final area.

I know both of these things, though I wasn't talking about that. I meant that it's always mid-game content, no matter that you can start it after completing all other side quests in the game. That's like saying Roedric's is end-game content because you can do it after completing everything else before falling down the hole (correct me if I'm wrong). It also only scales the final area which semi-solves 1% of the problem :p

 

[Tigranes]

You can't though. If you fall down the hole at the end there is no turning back and you can't continue playing after the end boss. AND If you have it installed and casually complete side quests you are going to outlevel end-game by a huge margin, making it trivial, no matter when you decide to tackle the expansion content.

Can't you IE Mod and use the console to teleport? Should take 5 minutes. (They should have just put a button...)

 

[Lacrymas]

Can't you IE Mod and use the console to teleport? Should take 5 minutes. (They should have just put a button...)

Completely missing the point. I already explained it in my previous post.

 

[Immortal]

Can't you IE Mod and use the console to teleport? Should take 5 minutes. (They should have just put a button...)

So in other words - it was a stupid idea but they get a pass because someone might mod a fix?

Or by Roguey's logic.. I should load an auto save from earlier in my game. Game Design at it's finest!

 

[Roguey]

It's a programming issue, not design.

 

[Lacrymas]

Who cares about that? Yes, it's stupid that you can't come back, but ultimately doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. The problem we are discussing is White March and how it relates to the overall game, not just the last 1%. No matter how you look at it it's mid-game content. It also unbalances a lot of the game. We are also discussing the sale numbers between EE vs expansions, but I think that is a false attribution and maybe even a post hoc fallacy, because the real reason (publicity) has nothing to do with either. We can only speculate how many copies PoE would've sold if it had a hypothetical EE instead of WM.

 

[Bester]

It's a programming issue, not design.

Stupidest post I've ever seen. What's the issue with this post? Is the forum's programmer at fault here?

 

[Tigranes]

Immortal I don't obsess about judging POE with everything I say, so I don't care.

Lacrymas I was specifically replying that people do begin WM content at mid- or high- levels, or anywhere in between. There is an issue with XP progression, but XP progression was kind of borked from the vanilla and now everybody tackles WM at different times (or in piecemeal) so it's become much harder to see how borked or fixed it is. (For those who remember, how did TOTSC feel in terms of that when it first came out?) All that said, WM could easily have been post-endgame content entirely, and I'd have liked to see that for some high-level challenge Craigholdt style. Of course, that wouldn't stop some idiots whining ("I have to finish the game to play this?!?!?!?!"), but then some people whine whatever you do.

As for EE v. Xpack, we don't really have the data, do we? Not a lot of EEs have been released so far. For me, a lot of the same stuff applies. If I think a game sucks, I won't go back just for the EE. If I think a game just needed a couple things to be worth it, I might, but then, traditional expansion apcks were always about improving the base game significantly as well (you still see this with, say, a Paradox DLC/Patch release). And if I really liked the game already, I'd prefer a consolidated chunk of shiny new content that I can tackle, instead of "oh we retouched everything all the way". We will see how something like D:OS EE does.

 

[Lacrymas]

how did TOTSC feel in terms of that when it first came out?)

I would assume it wasn't as bad as PoE. Why? Because pure level gains didn't trump anything else in the game after a certain point. It was just the way the D&D system was designed. You could still be shit at high levels if you had a stupid build, while in PoE not so much. I'm purely speculating, though, so if someone has more concrete information please correct me.

As for EE v. Xpack, we don't really have the data, do we? Not a lot of EEs have been released so far. For me, a lot of the same stuff applies. If I think a game sucks, I won't go back just for the EE. If I think a game just needed a couple things to be worth it, I might, but then, traditional expansion apcks were always about improving the base game significantly as well (you still see this with, say, a Paradox DLC/Patch release). And if I really liked the game already, I'd prefer a consolidated chunk of shiny new content that I can tackle, instead of "oh we retouched everything all the way". We will see how something like D:OS EE does.

We won't have the data when EE comes out either. Like I said - that's a false attribution, along with a post hoc fallacy and a false dichotomy. If D:OS had expansions AND the EE then we could judge based purely on that principle, even though it would still be somewhat of a false dichotomy.

 

[Excidium II]

White March was a complete mistake. They should have released it as a whole, not piecemeal, post-game only expansion.

 

[Abu Antar]

White March was a complete mistake. They should have released it as a whole, not piecemeal, post-game only expansion.

This, I agree with.

 

[Roguey]

Stupidest post I've ever seen. What's the issue with this post? Is the forum's programmer at fault here?

What's "design" about importing a character/save?

White March was a complete mistake. They should have released it as a whole, not piecemeal, post-game only expansion.

From a "what's best for Obsidian" perspective it was a success.

 

[Dorateen]

Enjoying White March better than Defiance Bay, playing it mid-game, which destroys any pretense of the developer's story actually mattering. Don't care about being over-leveled by the time the end game rolls around, since I've been fighting lots of enemies over the party's level thus far anyway. It will be satisfying to turn the tables, and at least I'll be ready for the one or two challenging encounters.

 

[Immortal]

Immortal I don't obsess about judging POE with everything I say, so I don't care.

Has nothing to do with my comment.. just an ad hominem to deflect my point. Mods are not a counter to shit game design.

What's "design" about importing a character/save?

Character Imports or Old Auto saves are a bandaid for the elephant in the room.
They made an expansion that is only relevant mid-game and there is a point of no return chasm after Dyrwood.

They copy all the lackluster ideas from the IE games and invent their own when they shouldn't.

 

[Excidium II]

Has nothing to do with my comment.. just an ad hominem to deflect my point. Mods are not a counter to shit game design.

keep in mind you are talking with an Obsidian forums moderator

 

[Ninjerk]

A kind of hell I wouldn't wish on anyone

 

[Roguey]

Character Imports or Old Auto saves are a bandaid for the elephant in the room.
They made an expansion that is only relevant mid-game and there is a point of no return chasm after Dyrwood.

They copy all the lackluster ideas from the IE games and invent their own when they shouldn't.

Completed Act I 45.9%
Completed Act II 21.2%
Completed Act III 11.2%
Won the Game!!! 8.9%

 

[Immortal]

Completed Act I 45.9%
Completed Act II 21.2%
Completed Act III 11.2%
Won the Game!!! 8.9%

Have you played the game yet?

 

[Roguey]

Have you played the game yet?

The DRM-free patches are now more than a gig in size, I'm waiting until they're no longer supporting it.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

Completed Act I 45.9%
Completed Act II 21.2%
Completed Act III 11.2%
Won the Game!!! 8.9%

That's like 50k sure sells for the expansion ,now- Recruit Zahua and the Devil of Caroc as companions 0.8% (first WM achievement)

 

[Ninjerk]

The DRM-free patches are now more than a gig in size, I'm waiting until they're no longer supporting it.

I see you're taking the Cleveian approach to playing PoE.

 

[Tigranes]

Has nothing to do with my comment.. just an ad hominem to deflect my point. Mods are not a counter to shit game design.

Character Imports or Old Auto saves are a bandaid for the elephant in the room.
They made an expansion that is only relevant mid-game and there is a point of no return chasm after Dyrwood.

They copy all the lackluster ideas from the IE games and invent their own when they shouldn't.

Um....
"No you can't play WM at end game!"
"Can you use the mod to do it? They should really have put in a button for it, though."
"OMG U THINK MODS MAKE SHIT DESIGN OK?! LOLOLOL FANBOI"

*yawn* I already said they should just have made it post-endgame or something. Who are you arguing with? Why are you making that point when nobody said anything about it? What are you imagining I am saying? Why are you more fixated on POE than an Obsidian forum moderator? But some mysteries will never be answered, I suppose.

Anyway. In terms of how it knocks the story out of whack, I'm in two minds. On one hand, there's nothing wrong with the expansion content being plugged in the way it is - that's how it works in TOTSC, but also in many, many other RPGs, including Trials of the Luremaster, FNV DLCs, etc. On the other hand, they didn't really do very much to synergise with the themes and events in the vanilla game, so it feels kind of weird. Sure, Devil of Caroc is all about souls, so is Durgan's Battery, but there's really nothing that echoes thematically or historically with the whole Waidwen / Thaos / etc material. The player's suspicion that the Leaden Key is there is hamfisted and pointless.

A player going into it to just fire up an existing save and check out the new content stand-alone doesn't really have that problem. It's a nice little romp with great visuals and better, more challenging combat. If someone's playing the game for the first time, though, it's just weird in a number of ways - once again, it should just have been post-endgame content.

 

[Tigranes]

I would assume it wasn't as bad as PoE. Why? Because pure level gains didn't trump anything else in the game after a certain point. It was just the way the D&D system was designed. You could still be shit at high levels if you had a stupid build, while in PoE not so much. I'm purely speculating, though, so if someone has more concrete information please correct me.

Maybe. The difference between Level 9 and 10 in BG certainly wasn't as momentous as the difference between 3 and 4. But I always thought that was true of POE high levels, too - by level 10 you have everything you want. I think one thing POE does markedly worse here is that you can go to White March a lot earlier than most players would have gone to TOTSC content. If you go do TOTSC after reaching Baldur's Gate, you're pretty much late game powerhouse anyway, and the only big vanilla fight it really affects is Sarevok (was he ever suped up?). But if you go to WM soon after reaching Defiance Bay and finish it, you'd be breezing through a much larger amount of the game.

Yeah, the more I think about it the more they should have made it post-endgame.