Eternity PoE II: Deadfire Sales Analysis Thread

[Sentinel]

One steam friend messaged me out of the blue yesterday saying "poe2 is garbage, don't bother / I regret buying it".

Steam users are mentally deficient, no surprises there.

Xotiphile

hmmhmmm...

 

[fantadomat]

cRPGs reflect what the developers are about (their formative experiences, game preferences, general culture, political inclinations, etc.). If a developer tries to make a game just like it was made by completely different people more than a decade ago, he will fail. Not only will he fail, he will add his own unwanted personal contributions to the legacy that were supposed to emulate, which can come across as a betrayal or lack of understanding of the subject. Even if the creators of BG2 themselves would try to recreate its magic they would fail because they are completely different people now. The players themselves are different people now. That is why these nostalgia projects are all doomed from the start.

Notice that developers think they can pretend doing the stuff you like when the reality is that they don’t play the same games you play, if they play games at all instead of squander all their spare time on social media. But you can’t pretend to know how encounter design or combat system works, because it shows. If you only play Hitman or Cities: Skylines in your spare time instead of playing cRPGs, this will be reflected in your game. You can’t just turn of the switch and do cRPG stuff to please those grognard traditionalist dudes. You need to be immersed in cRPGs and take them seriously in order to remain sharp. There are a lot of burnout cRPG developers living double lives at this point. They pretend they like cRPGs, but it is just the stuff they need to do to pay their bills. There is a big chasm between most cRPG developers and their audience right now, and it only grows as time passes and players try to be forgiving and understanding with their bland uninspired games.

I agree with you mate,most devs of rpgs and even table top games had some knowledge about world history. Mainly the European one,from ancient Greece to the colonial era. Many game were affected by it,D&D is a mix of ancient myths and legends with more medieval setting, warhammer is set in the dark ages with fantasy races that represent actual nations. While modern writers and devs think that game of thrones is some kind of literal masterpiece and the greatest books of all times,while their greatest works are fanficks about getting boned by a bull......on tumblr. The future looks grim indeed.

 

[Sacred82]

I think that largely has to do with the height of controversy. The second one isn't controversial.

Deadfire has quite a few controversial aspects.

question is if anyone finds PoE1 controversial nowadays (except Sensuki, or at least enough to talk about it). Personally I was disappointed with how shallow the roleplaying was and how many early ideas had been ditched (4 character party with more 4 more flexible classes, extensive non-combat skills) or simply went wrong (I asked Josh to think about suitable synergies between characters of the same class, he said that wasn't a concern at the time, turned out that stacking several characters with the same class is completely overpowered). Oh and yeah, the engagement mechanic turned out bad even for some who cares more about party strategies than squad based tactics.

Still, Good For What It Is seems to be a feeling people have about it now.

 

[2house2fly]

I'm not deflecting anything.

For the record, I think Obsidian can be excused for thinking they could pull off an Original Sin 2 with Deadfire. The first game definitely had a strong base of people who really liked it. Look at the game's threads on various forums. Look at the Codex, where people just. can't. stop. talking. about Pillars of Eternity long after they've grown bored of other games (including Divinity). That's why I said that if anybody had a shot at pulling it off besides Larian, it was Obsidian. Alas, they didn't.

People can't stop talking about DA2 or BGs or Call of Duty: Postmodern warfare. This makes them great games! Yeah, no. Interestingly, I suspect that more % people finished DA2 than they finished PoE. Whatdoyaknow.

Wow, what an interesting thing to suspect.

 

[Nano]

I'm not deflecting anything.

For the record, I think Obsidian can be excused for thinking they could pull off an Original Sin 2 with Deadfire. The first game definitely had a strong base of people who really liked it. Look at the game's threads on various forums. Look at the Codex, where people just. can't. stop. talking. about Pillars of Eternity long after they've grown bored of other games (including Divinity). That's why I said that if anybody had a shot at pulling it off besides Larian, it was Obsidian. Alas, they didn't.

People can't stop talking about DA2 or BGs or Call of Duty: Postmodern warfare. This makes them great games! Yeah, no. Interestingly, I suspect that more % people finished DA2 than they finished PoE. Whatdoyaknow.

Wow, what an interesting thing to suspect.

https://www.engadget.com/2012/08/13...tion-rate-in-me-dragon-age-seri/?guccounter=1

41% for Dragon Age 2.

 

[2house2fly]

I didn't say it's not the case, frankly I suspected the same thing. I just wouldn't preface my suspicion alone with the word "interestingly" and then act as if I'd made a great point without digging up the actual numbers

 

[2house2fly]

In the same way, I think fantamodat has a sponge where his brain should be, but his ludicrous objection to the plot involving a statue that can move, or guns and swords being in the same game, isn't necessarily an uncommon reason why people didn't get into Pillars of Eternity

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

I really hope we are wrong about the sales, I'd hate to see Obsidian and Sawyer not make cRPGs anymore.

Obsidian should burn to ash so the talented developers can go on to better-run companies.

Meh, maybe Obsidian’s owners should burn to ash—or at least Feargus and Chris Parker—but the studio needs to survive long enough to finish Tim and Leonard’s new project. NB: I’m neither threatening Obsidian’s management nor inciting others to break the law. But if FU and Parker can somehow wind up in prison that would be perfect.

Ideally I’d want Obsidian to keep existing under new leadership or get acquired by a company that believes in Sawyer, Cain and Boyarsky, because we need studios that actually want to make RPGs. I would not be thrilled with a world where Larian and inXile are the only mid-sized studios committed to the genre.

It's an outcome that does damage to people who deserve it, losing out on future Obsidian-developed RPGs is an acceptable loss. The Obsidian I liked is gone anyway.

Oh, the edge! Don’t lie, Roguey. You had the good sense to recognize that Tyranny was the best CRPG in years. How many people from the Tyranny team are gone? Brian Heins is still there, Matt MacLean is still there—it was their baby. I’d love it if they made something similar to Tyranny and so would you. And given what we know now, Tyranny probably would have been considered a financial success if Feargus hadn’t been using a big chunk of the team to make Pillars while double billing Paradox (they either could have made it for a lot less money or actually finished the damn game). Tyranny sold ~200k units near full price and another 100k+ at reduced prices; Paradox has confirmed that it made money, just not as much as they hoped for. Take out FU’s cost padding, looting of the team and double billing and this might be a viable model.

Hopefully Feargus will have a heart attack (look at him, he must have arteries of stone) and Obsidian can stay in business.

 

[Ramnozack]

Christ man, you're complaining that a physically impossible thing happened in a fantasy setting? Fucking hell here's a Baldur's Gate plot hole for you: you can't be a child of the god of murder because gods don't exist

One thing about atheists I'll never understand is why they never seem to understand how retarded their thinking is. By believing in atheism and saying stupid shit like you just did, claiming gods don't exist, you are claiming you have some sort of universal knowledge where you know for certain gods don't exist, which is as retarded as believing that any of religions we have here on Earth are 100% correct.

 

[Roguey]

You had the good sense to recognize that Tyranny was the best CRPG in years. How many people from the Tyranny team are gone?

I'm aware of things that give me justified pessimism regarding this issue.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

You had the good sense to recognize that Tyranny was the best CRPG in years. How many people from the Tyranny team are gone?

I'm aware of things that give me justified pessimism regarding this issue.

...you’re not going to share? Dude, what did you find in Matt MacLean’s trash?

 

[2house2fly]

Christ man, you're complaining that a physically impossible thing happened in a fantasy setting? Fucking hell here's a Baldur's Gate plot hole for you: you can't be a child of the god of murder because gods don't exist

One thing about atheists I'll never understand is why they never seem to understand how retarded their thinking is. By believing in atheism and saying stupid shit like you just did, claiming gods don't exist, you are claiming you have some sort of universal knowledge where you know for certain gods don't exist, which is as retarded as believing that any of religions we have here on Earth are 100% correct.

Not really, because if you say "a god exists" the only evidence is "it's written in this book here" whereas if I say "no gods exist" the evidence is "well I sure don't see any"

 

[Roguey]

...you’re not going to share? Dude, what did you find in Matt MacLean’s trash?

There hasn't been any kind of public announcement, but I suppose there wouldn't be considering the people involved aren't big social media people nor are they superstar developers like Avellone.

 

[Infinitron]

Thing to keep in mind about Roguey is that his opinion on things is deeply influenced by what he sees people saying on the Codex because he doesn't play the games himself until a year after they're released (not that I'm innocent in that regard, of course). A year from now he might play Deadfire and regret that the Obsidian of 2017-2018 couldn't keep on existing.

 

[DeepOcean]

Christ man, you're complaining that a physically impossible thing happened in a fantasy setting? Fucking hell here's a Baldur's Gate plot hole for you: you can't be a child of the god of murder because gods don't exist

One thing about atheists I'll never understand is why they never seem to understand how retarded their thinking is. By believing in atheism and saying stupid shit like you just did, claiming gods don't exist, you are claiming you have some sort of universal knowledge where you know for certain gods don't exist, which is as retarded as believing that any of religions we have here on Earth are 100% correct.

Well, there is a problem here, sure, you can't claim with 100% certainty that a divine entity under some form doesn't exist but that doesnt mean this proves that the christian, muslim, hindu or hebraic gods exist or that their laws are more than an human invention, humanity had millions of gods and each culture believed passionately on their particular and on their miracles, each god disappeared with the respective culture with no cataclysm and end of the world as each culture certainly believed would happen.

If there is a God, he doesn't give a single shit or do you think a divine hand would hold the soviet union and the US nuclear ICBMs on the space like superman if a nuclear exchange eventually happened?

 

[Ramnozack]

Christ man, you're complaining that a physically impossible thing happened in a fantasy setting? Fucking hell here's a Baldur's Gate plot hole for you: you can't be a child of the god of murder because gods don't exist

One thing about atheists I'll never understand is why they never seem to understand how retarded their thinking is. By believing in atheism and saying stupid shit like you just did, claiming gods don't exist, you are claiming you have some sort of universal knowledge where you know for certain gods don't exist, which is as retarded as believing that any of religions we have here on Earth are 100% correct.

Not really, because if you say "a god exists" the only evidence is "it's written in this book here" whereas if I say "no gods exist" the evidence is "well I sure don't see any"

Thats your best argument, that if you can't see something it doesn't exist?

 

[2house2fly]

Christ man, you're complaining that a physically impossible thing happened in a fantasy setting? Fucking hell here's a Baldur's Gate plot hole for you: you can't be a child of the god of murder because gods don't exist

One thing about atheists I'll never understand is why they never seem to understand how retarded their thinking is. By believing in atheism and saying stupid shit like you just did, claiming gods don't exist, you are claiming you have some sort of universal knowledge where you know for certain gods don't exist, which is as retarded as believing that any of religions we have here on Earth are 100% correct.

Not really, because if you say "a god exists" the only evidence is "it's written in this book here" whereas if I say "no gods exist" the evidence is "well I sure don't see any"

Thats your best argument, that if you can't see something it doesn't exist?

It works for most things.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Let's be honest here - Obsidian is dead, and I'm saying this as one of the bigger Obs fanboys on this forum.
I hope Josh patches up Deadfire in the upcoming months and that's it. The game will be remembered as the last Obsidian game that somehow managed to be fun despite garbage writing and story. The last dying breath of a terminally ill patient.

It was fun while it lastet but Obsidian just don't have it in them to produce anything worthwile ever again. The talent is just not there. They drove away the Zeits, Gonzalezes and Avellones of this world replacing them with an absurd cast of sheltered, half-indian, up-speaking Californian college girls that injested the worst of early 21st century pop culture with their mothers' breast milk. Hoping that Obsidian can produce something like MotB or Kotor2 ever again is like hoping that a one-legged cripple with no arms wins the next Olympic marathon.

I'm extremely seceptical about project Indiana. Even if there weren't any signs of Tim Cain going old and senile, I'd still be worried. I'm just not sure two excellent leads is enough to ensure a good game when there's so little actual talent among the grunts. Time will tell but I'm not getting my hopes up for the moment.

 

[Ramnozack]

Christ man, you're complaining that a physically impossible thing happened in a fantasy setting? Fucking hell here's a Baldur's Gate plot hole for you: you can't be a child of the god of murder because gods don't exist

One thing about atheists I'll never understand is why they never seem to understand how retarded their thinking is. By believing in atheism and saying stupid shit like you just did, claiming gods don't exist, you are claiming you have some sort of universal knowledge where you know for certain gods don't exist, which is as retarded as believing that any of religions we have here on Earth are 100% correct.

Well, there is a problem here, sure, you can't claim with 100% certainty that a divine entity under some form doesn't exist but that doesnt mean this proves that the christian, muslim, hindu or hebraic gods exist or that their laws are more than an human invention, humanity had millions of gods and each culture believed passionately on their particular and on their miracles, each god disappeared with the respective culture with no cataclysm and end of the world as each culture certainly believed would happen.

If there is a God, he doesn't give a single shit or do you think a divine hand would hold the soviet union and the US nuclear ICBMs on the space like superman if a nuclear exchange eventually happened?

But thats what I already said, I said its dumb to believe any of our religions is 100% correct. And who says that if a god does exist that he has to be benevolent and care about our existence.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Thing to keep in mind about Roguey is that his opinion on things is deeply influenced by what he sees people saying on the Codex because he doesn't play the games himself until a year after they're released (not that I'm innocent in that regard, of course). A year from now he might play Deadfire and regret that the Obsidian of 2017-2018 couldn't keep on existing.

Yeah if he liked TTON okay and he liked Tyranny a lot, he’s going to like Deadfire, especially once it’s finished. Probably even in its current unfinished state. It must be amusing to watch this cycle over and over again.

 

[Sacred82]

Thing to keep in mind about Roguey is that his opinion on things is deeply influenced by what he sees people saying on the Codex because he doesn't play the games himself until a year after they're released (not that I'm innocent in that regard, of course). A year from now he might play Deadfire and regret that the Obsidian of 2017-2018 couldn't keep on existing.

uuuuhhh

absolutely reasonable in this case (the delay, not the conclusion)

 

[2house2fly]

Reasonable in absolutely every case, quite frankly

 

[Roguey]

Yeah if he liked TTON okay and he liked Tyranny a lot, he’s going to like Deadfire, especially once it’s finished. Probably even in its current unfinished state. It must be amusing to watch this cycle over and over again.

Reading criticisms has informed me about which NPCs to completely avoid, namely Xoti, Serafen, and Tekehu. Maia's a maybe.

I don't doubt the gameplay will be fun since that seems to be the consensus despite also being coupled with an acknowledgement that it's much easier than PoE.

 

[DeepOcean]

Let's be honest here - Obsidian is dead, and I'm saying this as one of the bigger Obs fanboys on this forum.
I hope Josh patches up Deadfire in the upcoming months and that's it. The game will be remembered as the last Obsidian game that somehow managed to be fun despite garbage writing and story. The last dying breath of a terminally ill patient.

It was fun while it lastet but Obsidian just don't have it in them to produce anything worthwile ever again. The talent is just not there. They drove away the Zeits, Gonzalezes and Avellones of this world replacing them with an absurd cast of sheltered, half-indian, Californian college girls that injested the worst of early 21st century pop culture with their mothers' breast milk. Hoping that Obsidian can produce something like MotB or Kotor2 ever again is like hoping that a one-legged cripple with no arms wins the next Olympic marathon.

I'm extremely seceptical about project Indiana. Even if there weren't any signs of Tim Cain going old and senile, I'd still be worried. I'm just not sure two excellent leads is enough to ensure a good game when there's so little actual talent among the grunts. Time will tell but I'm not getting my hopes up for the moment.

Each good Obsidian storyfag game had some really interesting ideas as basis going on, MotB had the whole gods, religious authoritarism and the lack of belief, Kotor 2 had the attempt to escape fatalism of pre determined future stabilished by the Force and New Vegas had the fatalism that even after the bombs, humanity learned nothing and continued on their petty struggles for power.

Those were really cool themes and the writers were skillful enough to properly weave those themes on the game, with each faction, each quest, each character being the embodiment of those themes on a way or another, boy, this is FUCKING HARD to do for a writer and Ziets, Avellone and Gonzalez were really good at that, this is crazy talent that Obsidian top management squandered on an unbelievable way. You can't replace that with random californian english majors. Feargus deserves all the shit he gets, it was his fault.

You can see the result, Obsidian games remain employing themes like colonialism on PoE 2 but the talent to weave those themes on the game are severely lacking, they are explored on journalistic, documentary ways with lore dump characters or the characters are completely disconnected from the themes of the world, feeling shallow and artificial, there is no connection between ideas and characters, of intellect and human experience as a good writer would do.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Christ man, you're complaining that a physically impossible thing happened in a fantasy setting? Fucking hell here's a Baldur's Gate plot hole for you: you can't be a child of the god of murder because gods don't exist

One thing about atheists I'll never understand is why they never seem to understand how retarded their thinking is. By believing in atheism and saying stupid shit like you just did, claiming gods don't exist, you are claiming you have some sort of universal knowledge where you know for certain gods don't exist, which is as retarded as believing that any of religions we have here on Earth are 100% correct.

This is a silly argument. I don’t have any proof that the sun is not an omniscient diety, yet I don’t worship Sol Invictus nor do I see anyone else doing it. Can you really be sure that Skaen is merely a creation of George Ziets and not a genuine god? I think so.

I don’t think I could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that our whole society isn’t being controlled by a disguised race of alien lizard people; some folks do actually believe this, but hardly anyone takes them seriously. Would you think it’s retarded to proclaim that secret alien lizard overlords don’t exist? Would it display greater wisdom to say, “I have real doubts about lizard people, but can we really rule them out?” Because, to me, that’s a really stupid position. We have absolutely no evidence of lizard people and no reason to believe in them except for the say-so of a few fringe lunatics. I think we’re on safe ground when we say our hidden lizard masters are a myth.

Being excessively credulous is rarely a virtue. Now, you could argue that lizard people are a straw man. Most of humanity believes in some god or another and they’ve believed in this stuff for millennia. Their books are everywhere, and those books often claim firsthand knowledge of the divine.

My response is that religion is just the lizard people story that’s so old it’s gotten grandfathered in. There’s no more evidence of god than there is evidence of reptilian puppet masters; and there are books written by people who claim to have seen the lizards, too. Why should I take them less seriously than a bunch of hellenized Jewish fishermen from two thousand years ago, or an illiterate Arabian merchant from fourteen hundred years ago?

The number of things that we do not believe in because there’s no evidence approaches infinity (make up something silly like Scientology—is it retarded to lend zero credence to Xenu?). Even theists are damn sure that 99.99% of all the gods that have ever been worshipped do not exist. As far as I’m concerned, that makes them right 99.99% of the time; we’re all atheists about Zeus or Thor or Ra. Full blown atheists just hold Allah or Yahweh to the same standard.

You’re right, though, I’ll never be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that an omnipotent invisible man created the universe without leaving behind any evidence, and he wants us to believe in him, but not enough to rely on anything more than hearsay to get the word out. How could anyone ever disprove that story, though? Anyone can make up any silly story they want to; the onus is not on atheists to prove that it’s not true. The onus is on believers to demonstrate why anyone should take their story seriously.