Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Point allotment or Stat growth

Zerth

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 18, 2016
Messages
406
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
In most CRPGs, for every lvl up, your PC receives a fixed amount of stats points to allow you build him/her as you please, although most times it revolves around min maxing the shit out of it for the optimal path. This is simple to grasp and effective to apply, also most times It is explained well in the manual as a basic information you should know before starting the game and screwing up the PC with scattered points everywhere unless you pick a pre made character.

For most standard JRPGs, in the other hand, developers tend to set a "base value" to every stat. This base value determines how much points the stat gains after every level up. Which is known as stat growth, great base stats will provide hefty bonus gain while crappy ones merely will give next to zero. Unlike in CRPGs, a character's stat growth is pretty much left obscure and only hinted with vague remarks such as "good at melee" or "magic sentient". Of course, in the first Fallout games and New Vegas, the companions have character growth but is just a matter to ask them in order to find out what are their strengths. To find out that in classic jrpgs such as squaresoft 16 bit Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, you need to perform some serious grinding first. Although, in most jrpgs, optimal character planning is overkill and thus unnecessary.

I prefer point allotment though. Most jRpgs with a stiff stat growth system are usually a grinding marathon.
 

Deleted Member 16721

Guest
I always enjoyed getting points to spend on level up.

Last Dream does something very different for a JRPG-style RPG. Each level up you literally get points to spend in every single statistical category of attributes (and there are many more than your standard RPG).

Yes, this can lead to bad builds and what not, but it gives you total control of how you'd like to build your characters. If you have a basic grasp on what the stats do, it's not too hard, and you get enough points that you can make up a difference the next time you level up if you realize you made a mistake.

Also has a 700+ page manual if you're into the hardcore aspect of things.

This type of system is not really a casual-friendly feature but I really thought it was neat.
 

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
9,939
Location
Tampere, Finland
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Anything that puts the player in control, but also makes him responsible.
The easiest way to do that is classical points to spend on level-up (or at any point), but other things can also work (usage based, etc.).
 

Dyskolos

Cipher
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Messages
571
Location
Eumeswil
Level with use always feels the most sensible to me as an ideal since it forces the character to occupy the game role you're constructing for them - e.g. if I have a warrior who I want to be able to use some sort of priest armor buff then a usage-based system requires that I have to have him directly experienced in that school of magic. As opposed to point allotment where he could hammer smash fifty trolls to level up and then translate that to magical knowledge somehow.

That said, AoD's compromise with point allotment and usage based worked really well for me. You get certain general points and then other combat or civic depending on how you completed a quest/what quests you did. So you're much encouraged to build according to how you've already been playing but not actually entirely stuck to that line if you want more breadth.
 

NeoKino

RPGCodex Ninja
Patron
Joined
May 7, 2016
Messages
1,864,638
Location
Somewhere
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire
Point allotment seems like the better option as it allows more CHOICE and CONSEQUENCE to your character, Stiff Stat growth system remove a lot of the excitement of leveling up in a RPG whistle denying a lot of nifty character customization options. The only consequence of Point Allotment is it tends to hurt balance and encourage Min-Maxing, but with a meaningful stat base system that doesn't place pointless attributes like Charisma which is an ubiquitous dump stat making every stat valuable in the game world so you can Spec a Intelligence warrior and have him be viable to an extent.

Take two of these JRPG Weaboo RPGs for example Final Fantasy IV and Pokemon Platinum, Pokemon Platinum doesn't have full Stat Allocation as that will trigger ten years olds with too much Knowledge their feeble minds can't manage but compared to Final Fantasy their is generally more variance in Play style between characters. and its completely possible you ruin your Pokemon.

Paladin Cecil and Kaine (Final Fantasy IV) pretty much play the same no matter what you do, you can make a Dragonite (Pokemon) a Defensive Tank, a Special Attacker, a Physically attacker, and a Stat boosting Sweeper by allocating Effort Values to certain stats.
 

Suicidal

Arcane
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
2,208
The more points I get to spend each level and the more categories I can spend those points in, the better the RPG
 

Hobo Elf

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
13,997
Location
Platypus Planet
I think giving the player the power to make or break his characters himself is the best way to go about it. Games with passive stat growth usually don't make a big deal out of stats. The worst kind of example of this would be a game like Diablo 3 or World of Warcraft. No one gives a fuck about the stats you gain each time you level up in those games.
 

Grampy_Bone

Arcane
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
3,640
Location
Wandering the world randomly in search of maps
The mythical delineation between auto-allocate JRPGs and manual-spending western games does not exist.

7 of the 8 Wizardry games had randomized stat gains. Diablo 3 auto-increases your stats. Ultima lets you build in some games. Insanely popular Skyrim doesn't even have stats.

About half the Final Fantasys allow stat manipulation in some form. Magicite in FF6, Materia in FF7, Junctioning in FF8. Your weapons affect your stat gains in FF9. FF10 had the sphere grid where you bought your stats with levels. Shin Megaim Tensei/Persona games have always had manual stat allocation.
 

Wayward Son

Fails to keep valuable team members alive
Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
1,866,294
Location
Anytown, USA
A way that I've thought of for a turn-based RPG-lite that I've been too sing around in my head is that you spend gold in fountains in the dungeon to raise one of three stars and each fountain raises a specific stat by a specific amount and can only be used once. As you raise a stat, the cost for further increases will also raise. The stats are Strength for doing more damage, Willpower as your magic stat, and Dexterity as a speed stat to determine turn order and at higher levels, a multiplier. Sound good?
 

Zerth

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 18, 2016
Messages
406
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I always enjoyed getting points to spend on level up.

Last Dream does something very different for a JRPG-style RPG. Each level up you literally get points to spend in every single statistical category of attributes (and there are many more than your standard RPG).

Yes, this can lead to bad builds and what not, but it gives you total control of how you'd like to build your characters. If you have a basic grasp on what the stats do, it's not too hard, and you get enough points that you can make up a difference the next time you level up if you realize you made a mistake.

Also has a 700+ page manual if you're into the hardcore aspect of things.

This type of system is not really a casual-friendly feature but I really thought it was neat.

I'm not familiar with Last Dream, but some rpgs (both western and japanese) include auto level features to provide a casual friendly alternative instead of the power gaming customization.


Level with use always feels the most sensible to me as an ideal since it forces the character to occupy the game role you're constructing for them - e.g. if I have a warrior who I want to be able to use some sort of priest armor buff then a usage-based system requires that I have to have him directly experienced in that school of magic. As opposed to point allotment where he could hammer smash fifty trolls to level up and then translate that to magical knowledge somehow.

That said, AoD's compromise with point allotment and usage based worked really well for me. You get certain general points and then other combat or civic depending on how you completed a quest/what quests you did. So you're much encouraged to build according to how you've already been playing but not actually entirely stuck to that line if you want more breadth.

Agreed. Seems a bit dumb to increase a wisdom related stat by cleaving hundreds of ogres and lizardmen. But that's the nature of
dungeon crawler, thus for me is alright for those kind of games. I have to really play AoD, what I have read so far is quite promising, Elder Scrolls Morrowind and its sequels are one of the few rpgs I actually played with level usage system, in theory is quite neat, but its implementation feels flawed since you always receive the same amount of XP regardless the action (ex. crouching for five to six hours behind a npc to max sneak).

Point allotment seems like the better option as it allows more CHOICE and CONSEQUENCE to your character, Stiff Stat growth system remove a lot of the excitement of leveling up in a RPG whistle denying a lot of nifty character customization options. The only consequence of Point Allotment is it tends to hurt balance and encourage Min-Maxing, but with a meaningful stat base system that doesn't place pointless attributes like Charisma which is an ubiquitous dump stat making every stat valuable in the game world so you can Spec a Intelligence warrior and have him be viable to an extent.

Take two of these JRPG Weaboo RPGs for example Final Fantasy IV and Pokemon Platinum, Pokemon Platinum doesn't have full Stat Allocation as that will trigger ten years olds with too much Knowledge their feeble minds can't manage but compared to Final Fantasy their is generally more variance in Play style between characters. and its completely possible you ruin your Pokemon.

Paladin Cecil and Kaine (Final Fantasy IV) pretty much play the same no matter what you do, you can make a Dragonite (Pokemon) a Defensive Tank, a Special Attacker, a Physically attacker, and a Stat boosting Sweeper by allocating Effort Values to certain stats.

Well, that applies to Fallout since a high Intelligence stat renders charisma useless unless you want a sizable party, but at least It
does fill a niche. Anyway, if there is a hypothetical universe where Black Isle still owns the rights of its franchise, they should
remove CHAR and increase INT influence over persuasion. But I digress

Pokémon is a prime example of what I was talking about. Before sixth generation, base stats, nature actual bonus, effort points and Individual values were pretty much obscure concepts for anyone that didn't read the wiki, and they were hinted with NPCs vague commentaries, and yes, you can ruin your pokémon for post game battle frontier and pvp online, but until you defeat the elite 4, overleveling a decent pokémon (starters, dragon types,tauros,scolipede,kadabra, etc.) and weakness exploit was enough to finish the game. Now with super training, you can grasp how good is a pokemon to perform a role without browsing wiki.


I think giving the player the power to make or break his characters himself is the best way to go about it. Games with passive stat growth usually don't make a big deal out of stats. The worst kind of example of this would be a game like Diablo 3 or World of Warcraft. No one gives a fuck about the stats you gain each time you level up in those games.

Although obvious, In Every "good" rpg I have played with stat allotment system, your PC build is always quite relevant, like Divine Divinity, FO 1 & 2 and New Vegas,gothic,etc. In awful rpgs like FO 3 & 4 , the system feels like a meaningless filler, a funny gimmick, since there is not any relevant playable motivation to build in a specific way because eventually everything is thrown at you in a copious amount regardless of your stat allocation and perk choices. :deadhorse: but I can't think of any other bad example I actually played.

Well yes,that usually happens with rpgs with passive stat growth, Diablo 3 is blatantly even more equipment dependent than the former games for example. But in games such as Final Fantasy tactics or the latest Dragon Quest, stat growth is really something
that would screw up a character if zero fucks were given about it.

The mythical delineation between auto-allocate JRPGs and manual-spending western games does not exist.

7 of the 8 Wizardry games had randomized stat gains. Diablo 3 auto-increases your stats. Ultima lets you build in some games. Insanely popular Skyrim doesn't even have stats.

About half the Final Fantasys allow stat manipulation in some form. Magicite in FF6, Materia in FF7, Junctioning in FF8. Your weapons affect your stat gains in FF9. FF10 had the sphere grid where you bought your stats with levels. Shin Megaim Tensei/Persona games have always had manual stat allocation.

You're right. But when I was writing the post, 16 bit jrpgs like dragon quest or tactics ogre, were the ones that came to my mind as a stat growth system example. For me, standard jrpgs follow some of the classic DQ formula, although nowadays that sounds quite vague.

A way that I've thought of for a turn-based RPG-lite that I've been too sing around in my head is that you spend gold in fountains in the dungeon to raise one of three stars and each fountain raises a specific stat by a specific amount and can only be used once. As you raise a stat, the cost for further increases will also raise. The stats are Strength for doing more damage, Willpower as your magic stat, and Dexterity as a speed stat to determine turn order and at higher levels, a multiplier. Sound good?

That sounds rather similar to what teachers do in Elder Scrolls and Gothic games. Except for the limited use part.
 

Viata

Arcane
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
9,885
Location
Water Play Catarinense
Wizardry-style. After beating some monsters, you sleep in a inn to wake up 3 points less in str, 4 in vit and 2 in both agi and piety. But hey, you got 1 point in luck, how lucky huh?
 

Love

Cipher
Joined
Dec 31, 2013
Messages
371
Isn't point allotment the great reward we get from slaying through all those nasty dungeons? It's the analogy to chopping wood I've become so accustomed to in RPGs since we get to see first hand what all of our actions have brought us and now we get to spent those hard earned points on fancy skills.
Maybe we should ask the PSYOP branch from Blizzard Entertainment how this works in people's minds.

But maybe I am biased because I overwhelmingly played games where you decide first what your character should be and then get the points. Implementations of systems where you develop skills by use have had a tendency to be a bit more fad and easy in some stretches to make the system work while I often had to restart games with point allotment because I foozled the character.
 

Deleted Member 16721

Guest
I'm not familiar with Last Dream, but some rpgs (both western and japanese) include auto level features to provide a casual friendly alternative instead of the power gaming customization.

True. Last Dream may even have an auto-level feature, don't remember.

But this system isn't necessarily a "power gaming" system. Sure, you can study it carefully, build a powerful build, etc., OR, you can wing it and just have fun. I chose to wing it, although I did make sure I at least had a basic handle on what each stat does.

So, my party didn't end up overly powerful or anything. I try to stay away from power-gaming guides and stuff for RPGs because I like to play naturally and just have fun my own way.

If you choose to power-game it, though, you can look up the 700 page manual online and *really* get deep into things. :)
 

Mozg

Arcane
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
2,033
Stats on level up (or just stats from stuff in the world, a la M&M) with a level-by-training system so I can wait until I feel like I understand the game better before I make significant build decisions. Examples: M&M, Dark Souls.

If you want me to do an extended character creation at the start of the game (aside from picking simple archetypes that I have every reason to believe the game will support with design) you should have a default party that I can use like old blobbers and/or have a simplistic combat demo a la AoD that I can learn the ropes on.

Or be based on a P&P system I already know... which is not anything made in the last decade anymore.

I could get by with a Microprose-scale manual if they still existed and actually had anything to do with gameplay relevant decisions.
 

TigerKnee

Arcane
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
1,920
In the games I've played with stat allocation, I honestly haven't really found one where you make interesting choices - there's usually very obvious dump stats
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,616
In a game like Diablo 1 the stat allocation felt ok because the margin of error was fairly high and there were caps on the stats to prevent really bad decisions. (As well as softer incentives like stat requirements for gear that guided choices.)

Generally I think extensive tiny stat allocation choices are a design trap. I'd rather see a smaller set of choices with interesting ramifications than many small choices that mean very little.

A good example of this was when I briefly played FFXI. Picking a subjob was an interesting and impactful decision. Not every option was viable, generally you wouldn't mix physical and magical jobs, but it was a good character building decision that could motivate activities/adventures in the game and was swappable which encouraged some experimentation.

One thing I don't see discussed here at the Codex often enough is how many of the standard RPG character building choices are invalidated by the extremely strong passive pressure exerted on players to build something 'safe'. Many interesting character building options are only truly available on a secondary play-through because nobody takes a party of 6 bards with them when the dungeon is unknown.
 

Mr. Pink

Travelling Gourmand, Crab Specialist
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
3,042
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
most of the time, stat allocation is pretty obvious. i don't miss it in games that allocate points for you. it only seems useful if you're playing a game where class isn't that important, and there is flexibility and respecs. stat allocation without respecs just leads to the same exact result every time, discouraging any kind of experimentation.
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,144
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
According to original poster's specifications:

In that case, Stat growth has the feature of original character creation of much meaning as it affect the direction of growth afterward. A ranged build is different than a melee build, so to speak.

If you can add stat afterward manually, the original character creation lost much meaning since you can fix any mishaps. Which means the Point Alloment Levelup design give you the illusion of character creation.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom