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[Poll] Lich

Who is the greatest lich in fiction or folklore? (choose up to 3)

  • Afgorkon (from Kothar the Barbarian)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Morda (from Taran Wanderer)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Zheng Zu (from Shang-Chi)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Quan Chi (from Mortal Kombat)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Shasarak the Wytch King (from Lone Wolf)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Deathlord Ixiataaga (from Lone Wolf)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Lady Osterneth (from Eberron)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Morghen Dythanus (from Accordlands)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Geth (from MtG New Phyrexia)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Sedris (from MtG Alara)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Dralnu (from MtG Dominaria)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Tormod (from MtG Dominaria)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Asta Syneri, Queen of the Syneri (from Accordlands)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Heurodis the Medusa (from Neverwinter Nights)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Vix'thra the Dracolich (from Neverwinter Nights)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Nemethis (from NWN The Prophet)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Roule Enron (from Rance Quest Magnum)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    90

buffalo bill

Arcane
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
1,004
Does Arcanum's Kerghan count as a lich?
No.
Kerghan was not undead and only went to the Void because he was banished by Nasrudin&Co. In his journal,however,he says that he wanted to go there in search of power and out of genuine curiosity and lust for knowledge.
Also,Kerghan discovered the Necromantic Black magick school when he was still on Arcanum and a member of the Elven Council,and did not become a Lich or undead creature. He was the only human that became member of the Council,that's how powerful he was.
I was thinking of the following quote:

"...And finally, I came to the place where souls go to die. Where the mirrored and worn spirits fall into an endless sea of grey, mirrored glass... and I lowered myself within... and lay among them... and I almost did not return."

This kinda sounds like someone who has returned from the dead. And I take it that lots of liches are former necromancers. I know that the game doesn't explicitly say he is undead (though I'm not sure what the technical definition of 'undead' is), but Kerghan (i) came back from the dead (ii) has halted life-processes (in virtue of being in the Void. And maybe just also in virtue of his necromancer abilities?), and (iii) is a wielder of powerful black magic. I admit that these might not be jointly sufficient for counting as a lich, but they are minimally necessary.
 

NecroLord

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Sep 6, 2022
Messages
7,926
Location
Southeastern Yurop
Does Arcanum's Kerghan count as a lich?
No.
Kerghan was not undead and only went to the Void because he was banished by Nasrudin&Co. In his journal,however,he says that he wanted to go there in search of power and out of genuine curiosity and lust for knowledge.
Also,Kerghan discovered the Necromantic Black magick school when he was still on Arcanum and a member of the Elven Council,and did not become a Lich or undead creature. He was the only human that became member of the Council,that's how powerful he was.
I was thinking of the following quote:

"...And finally, I came to the place where souls go to die. Where the mirrored and worn spirits fall into an endless sea of grey, mirrored glass... and I lowered myself within... and lay among them... and I almost did not return."

This kinda sounds like someone who has returned from the dead. And I take it that lots of liches are former necromancers. I know that the game doesn't explicitly say he is undead (though I'm not sure what the technical definition of 'undead' is), but Kerghan (i) came back from the dead (ii) has halted life-processes (in virtue of being in the Void. And maybe just also in virtue of his necromancer abilities?), and (iii) is a wielder of powerful black magic. I admit that these might not be jointly sufficient for counting as a lich, but they are minimally necessary.


Indeed. He is a necromancer but not a lich.
Great voice acting. Always gives me goosebumps.
 

Kev Inkline

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Messages
5,072
A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
%22End_Boss%22_concept_art.jpg

Vizier Khilbron for me
 

RaggleFraggle

Ask me about VTM
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
990
I admit that these might not be jointly sufficient for counting as a lich, but they are minimally necessary.
The tvtropes page uses "lich" even more nebulously, so I wouldn't worry about it. Gygax didn't use the word correctly at the time when he put it in the monster manual anyway, so arguing only the D&D definition is correct is just arbitrary prescriptivism. Many of the characters in the list don't fit it. They're not real, so any categorization scheme you use will be completely arbitrary anyway. It's like to trying to argue that all vampires drink blood and are killed by a stake through the heart. Meanwhile, there is a real place in England called Lichfield, which means "field of death" and not "field of undead wizard." Not to mention all the real British dialectal words like lich-gate, lich-house, lich-wake, etc that have nothing to do with undead wizards.

Do we even need a single syllable word for the concept of an undead wizard? Can't we just use "undead wizard"? Or any number of other more specific phrasings? If the list in this very thread includes Sauron (who is physically incapable of dying because he's a spiritual being to begin with, and created the One Ring not to contain his soul but to concentrate his power), then the word "lich" isn't very specific now is it? I actually can't think of a single definition that applies to all of the entries without leaving huge room for exceptions and twists. What do all the entries have in common? They're all wizards or at least have some magical capabilities, but they may or may not be alive/undead/spirit/other and they may or may not have a magical item linked to their power/soul/whatever that they may or may not be dependent on for their continued existence and may or not be able to replace if broken... see what I mean?
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
"Lich" is an old English word for "corpse". The German word "Leiche" means the same. In Swedish we have "Lik" which means the same. Clearly there is a connection across Scandinavia, Britain and Germany at the very least. Maybe other langauges have a similar word for corpse as well.
 

Tao

Savant
Joined
Sep 13, 2015
Messages
343
Does Arcanum's Kerghan count as a lich?
No.
Kerghan was not undead and only went to the Void because he was banished by Nasrudin&Co. In his journal,however,he says that he wanted to go there in search of power and out of genuine curiosity and lust for knowledge.
Also,Kerghan discovered the Necromantic Black magick school when he was still on Arcanum and a member of the Elven Council,and did not become a Lich or undead creature. He was the only human that became member of the Council,that's how powerful he was.
I was thinking of the following quote:

"...And finally, I came to the place where souls go to die. Where the mirrored and worn spirits fall into an endless sea of grey, mirrored glass... and I lowered myself within... and lay among them... and I almost did not return."

This kinda sounds like someone who has returned from the dead. And I take it that lots of liches are former necromancers. I know that the game doesn't explicitly say he is undead (though I'm not sure what the technical definition of 'undead' is), but Kerghan (i) came back from the dead (ii) has halted life-processes (in virtue of being in the Void. And maybe just also in virtue of his necromancer abilities?), and (iii) is a wielder of powerful black magic. I admit that these might not be jointly sufficient for counting as a lich, but they are minimally necessary.


Indeed. He is a necromancer but not a lich.
Great voice acting. Always gives me goosebumps.

Even today i remember that moment. The guy really sold me the entropy ending. I did never regret it as the end of my first "oficial" run.
 

RaggleFraggle

Ask me about VTM
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
990
"Lich" is an old English word for "corpse". The German word "Leiche" means the same. In Swedish we have "Lik" which means the same. Clearly there is a connection across Scandinavia, Britain and Germany at the very least. Maybe other langauges have a similar word for corpse as well.
Yup. English is technically a Germanic language, but it's got a huge influx of vocabulary from French and Latin. "Lich" is the indigenous English word for a corpse, while "corpse" is actually a loan word from French. Since its cognates are still used in other Germanic languages, whenever "lich" is translated into those languages the translators often have to substitute the word to get the intended meaning across. For example, I recall a German translation of the MM where the monster is called a Leichnam. This means a corpse, but in a respectful and venerating manner.
 
Joined
Oct 9, 2015
Messages
2,095
Location
DFW, Texas
Generally I'd say a lich is an evil wizard who becomes undead through sorcery, usually by binding their lifeforce or soul to a phylactery. They are usually corporal but can also be incorporal (a demilich). What I excluded were evil wizards that sustain immortality through some sort of vampirism, life drain, soul eating or soul transference. This excluded Tremere (vampirism), Shang Tsung (soul eater) and Sheev (cloning + soul transference).

Am Isuel is probably the farthest stretch on the poll. Am is as far as I figured the closest being there is to a lich in the Rance games. Most Darklords and Demon Kings in Rance are vampiric in design. Am becomes immortal by polluting her soul so much that her soul can never be recycled to Ludo (therefore she cannot die).

Ok and I just remembered that Roule Enron also has 100% soul pollution and actually fits a traditional lich archetype.

Roule_Enron_Portrait_2.png
If we're going all the way into animu territory, there's Wiz from KonoSuba:

Wiz.%28KonoSuba%29.full.2058849.jpg
 

The Limper

Educated
Joined
Apr 24, 2021
Messages
150
Location
Wishing I was back in Cheesesteak Heaven
The Ten Who Were Taken are still cooler than almost anyone else on this list other than Vecna and some of the other options are really, really stretching the definition of lich, so I'd vote for them anyway.

Soooo, would you a Lich Bitch?
Yerp….

The Black Company would make for a truly awesome, dark tv series.
 

RaggleFraggle

Ask me about VTM
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
990
No Ainz Ooal Gown/Momonga (from Overlord)?

:desu:
Ainz is specifically called out as an “elder lich,” which is the next stage after a “skeleton mage.” There doesn’t seem to be any monster just called a “lich” in that setting.
 

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