POLL - Which famous codexers should be in the Project Eternity Codex squad?

[Kaiserin]

What the heck does this even mean?

Let's put this in an entirely different context.

If I walked in on somebody shooting heroin, the scene wouldn't at all appall me. I would be like 'oh hey there, having fun?' and wouldn't think much beyond that.

However, just because I would react that way doesn't mean that I am entirely ignorant to how taboo what I just saw was, and how other people would react. It remains evident to me that in spite of my own personal attitude toward seeing such a scene, that it would be a revolting and shocking sight to most eyes.

Thus, if somebody were to depict me shooting heroin, I would be offended that they were using my image in such a way. Not because I think that shooting heroin is wrong, but because I'm well aware of the sort of message that's being conveyed and what other people think of it, and it just wouldn't reflect well on me for an image like that to be out there.

Sounds to me like you're just angry at the Codex for having this "tranny meme" in the first place. The idea of putting a tranny in Obsidian's game is just a convenient excuse to complain about it.

I'm not sure why there's any call for 'it sounds like' when I've pretty much said as much, not only in this thread but multiple times in the past. I didn't ever make a point of the fact that I was transgender and it was only through googling and snooping that it was ever discerned that I am transgender. I find the entire topic sensational and worth avoiding, as it's really nothing other than a magnet for ridicule. While I don't doubt that some people here hold some sort of distant affection for me, it seems that primarily I(and SMA for that matter) are held up as some sort of spectacle. Granted, after enough prodding and harassment we've occasionally made spectacles of ourselves, and for that we have no one but ourselves to blame, but I am thoroughly tired with this conception of me and would like to move past it.


Additionally, and this is aimed at the topic in general, rather than Infinitron.

It struck me that everyone else depicted is a sort of idealized version of how the Codex perceives them. Whereas, only SMA is constrained by the banal and prosaic reality of her predicament. Everybody else takes on a physical form that is entirely unlike their own, indeed, in the case of Cleve it matches his wildest self-indulgent fantasies of how he (supposedly) wishes he was. If we are to entertain the disparity in how Cleve views himself while denying that to SMA(or any tranny) for the sake of a punchline, then it seems to me that all of that garbage about 'this is how you identify, this is how you view yourself, this is how others view you' is moot within context.

As for how I think that the transgender nature of a character could be conveyed in a tasteful manner, I would like to see a female character model, female marked character sheet, and a lootable note/photo making mention of birth gender and transsexuality. THAT would be a much preferable and less sensational depiction imo.

 

[Infinitron]

It struck me that everyone else depicted is a sort of idealized version of how the Codex perceives them. Whereas, only SMA is constrained by the banal and prosaic reality of her predicament. Everybody else takes on a physical form that is entirely unlike their own, indeed, in the case of Cleve it matches his wildest self-indulgent fantasies of how he (supposedly) wishes he was.

I don't agree that the Codex's little tranny meme is banal and prosaic. You two (three? however many there are) are a symbol of the free-spiritedness and anarchism of this place. The Codex, after all, is way too extreme to be shackled by mere biology.

One could say that Cleve needs to be idealized, but you two are living the dream.

 

[Haba]

What is RPG Codex? Trannies and trolls.

Never mind the fact that during the decade of decline, the trannies have mainly contributed by... posting about their adventures in buttfuckery and dickery in GD (with all respect). And the trolls? They troll dozens of RPG and gaming forums. Including Codex.

So uniquely Codex, don't you say?

I get that a lot of you like trannies. Whether it is a genuine sexual fetish or you just enjoy the way that flaunting the topic riles people up... But hey, this thingamoe where you are pouring money at, what was it supposed to be about again?

I find it amusing that same people can be so dismissive of GD and GD posters, yet when it comes to picking representatives of the Codex, they pick... GD posters. And Internet trolls.

 

[Kaiserin]

I don't agree that the Codex's little tranny meme is banal and prosaic.

Rendering her(or any tranny for that matter) as a man in a dress with shaven legs otoh, is.

The Codex, after all, is way too extreme to be shackled by mere biology.

Well, you weren't the one who made the argument that 'those things are really true!' So I can't really quite say, 'well why then does SMA necessarily be need to be depicted as a man in a dress?' Again, not that I think she's a man in a dress, it's just that DU's explanation for writing her in that way seems to be that it's an accurate representation of who she is, and well I don't think that holds water given that Cleve isn't an 8 foot tall titanium boned genius carrying a baby.

One could say that Cleve needs to be idealized, but you two are living the dream.

Like I said, if we make it to $3k I will seriously put my best foot forward for a character concept, and only after it's accepted(not even in full, just so long as it is obvious that my opinion was considered seriously) will I consider this to be a sincere appraisal of how most Codexers feel about 'trannies' in the abstract.

Never mind the fact that during the decade of decline, the trannies have mainly contributed by... posting about their adventures in buttfuckery and dickery in GD (with all respect).

Hmm, you know I don't really think that's a fair assessment of what I've done here. Just check my posting history, hell check ALL of the threads that I've ever started, and the number of them that are about trannies, should you find any at all, is less than 1%. I am not sure at all how I 'flaunted the topic' when it wasn't even myself who made mention of my own gender identity to begin with, but the workings of people who became obsessed with me and investigated details about my life.

I don't talk about video games much because frankly I don't feel the sort of verbose incensed passion that you guys do about them. Besides, I don't know what on earth there really *is* to contribute these days in the way of video games. OTOH, I feel like I've contributed a lot on science topics over the years, and would say that apart from Ion Flux I am surely the most wisened member on the forum regarding matters of pharmacology.

So yeah, I dunno this idea that I 'flaunt the topic.' When was the last time any of you remember me making a thread about that? Can you link it? It's more that for a few years there I couldn't post without people leaping on anything I said with 'herp derp tranny fag retard herp derp', and that inevitably derailed the thread. Hell, I even changed my nick after being discovered and tried to pretend I was somebody else, but the moment I opened my mouth about neurotransmitter receptor sites people know what was what and I couldn't hide any longer.

I suppose I could have just kept making accounts and started hiding behind more and more proxies, but I think that's an awful steep way to define 'flaunting' at that rate.

 

[Infinitron]

Rendering her(or any tranny for that matter) as a man in a dress with shaven legs otoh, is.

Heh. Tell me, just what is bothering you here?

That people think trannies are icky? That the Codex regards trannies as a kind of perverse blackface-like mascot for the site? Or, do you just not want to be portrayed as (gasp) sexually unattractive?

I'm reminded of Sailer's Law of Female Journalism:

The most heartfelt articles by female journalists tend to be demands that social values be overturned in order that, Come the Revolution, the journalist herself will be considered hotter-looking.

 

[Jaesun]

For even more glorious butthurt, DU could make so that only the actual backers have a vote on the final party.

 

[Haba]

Hmm, you know I don't really think that's a fair assessment of what I've done here. Just check my posting history, hell check ALL of the threads that I've ever started, and the number of them that are about trannies, should you find any at all, is less than 1%. I am not sure at all how I 'flaunted the topic' when it wasn't even myself who made mention of my own gender identity to begin with, but the workings of people who became obsessed with me and investigated details about my life.

Yeah, that was the point I was trying to have. Trannytalk is very small part of the posts of a handful of posters who to my mind would not stand out as posters (when it comes to RPGs) if not for that one meaningless detail.

In that sense, a school yard bully who tries to get a rise out of someone who is different (or in the case of Prosper, mentally ill) would be much more descriptive character of a "Codexian" party than a tranny.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

If you believe that a male character model for a character that self-identifies as female and wears women's clothing makes them "appear to be a clown" then that's your perspective.

So you mean to say that I'm just entirely off base in making the assumption that other people view such a thing with ridicule?

No. But this is the challenge transgender individuals have to deal with on a daily basis. It's interesting that your argument is almost entirely based around how players will perceive the individual in question - rather than on the actual individual themselves.

Even if I assume that you've put forward this idea for entirely different reasons than every other time it's been brought up in media, it's still hinging on a sense of shock value over this person's gender variance. Her entire character has been reduced to her transgenderism, and nickname. All that we are conveyed through this depiction is that she is transgender, has done modeling out of desperation,

Once again, there seems to be what I wrote, and how you've chosen to interpret that. You seem to have developed your own assumptions and conclusions and gone off the deep end.

One more time, here's what I actually wrote:

* Lady Sarah McArts - Sarah's NPC model and character sheet clearly identify her as a male, but she is wearing a female's outfit - and has shaved legs. She speaks with a Scottish accent and will tell you that she has "done some nude modelling", the pictures of which appeared on page 25 of "Warrior's Monthly - A magazine for men with unique tastes". She is the group's bowman (erm... bow-woman) and carries a bow.​

From that, you've apparently concluded that I think you're autistic ("where the hell did you ever get the idea that I had autism?"), a clown, and now: Where do I convey that she's done nude modelling out of "desperation"? Her reasons for modelling are not mentioned at all in the original. And in the follow-up variation where I mixed in you, I in fact said the exact opposite: "it was her desire to pursue her career as a professional model". It was this career choice and a disagreement with her partner that lead to her leaving her home town. Not "she needed the bucks".

and goes by the handle of SMA. Compared to the character of The Cleaver, this is a hollow and meaningless depiction by comparison.

Oh please, I could say the same about Cleve. He's an intelligent man (who's even building his own bunker) who's been involved in the development of a number of highly acclaimed games, even going back to the days when he used to send in code to computer magazines that were (for the time) widely published.

We've reduced him to a stupid barbarian wearing a loin-cloth, with metal bones - who's carrying a doll.

SMA in reality is a very scholarly person who has a lot of knowledge about a lot of things, and here we're seeing a transgender archer who's done some nude modeling as the embodiment of everything she's posted here, and again with regard to your 'inclusion' of myself, we simply see references to my nickname and the fact that I'm transgender.

To be honest, I could add in that whenever you speak to this character, she interprets what you say in the most obscenely offensive way possibly and will accuse you of calling her things you never said.

Other than the character model and character sheet, no.

Yeah, it's not like those things stand as essential or definitive within the context of CRPGs, those are just incidentally mentioning that she's male, it doesn't hold any more weight or gravity to list it on her character sheet than it would for somebody to whisper it in a text bubble.

We both know that's bullshit, because the character sheet is like going back behind the curtain and telling us 'how it really is,' and here you seem to be taking the two most essential and iconic manifestations of the character, visual representation and stats, and using those to indicate that she's male.

A male who identifies as female, yes. It's kind of like how SMA has a cock (see Retardo Land, pictures page 25). Now you may wish to think you don't have a cock, or an Adam's apple, or a male-sounding voice or a male's physical build, but you do.

Would you prefer it if it was a female character model with a description that says "You see a large butch of a female with a prominent adam's apple and a heavy male build. She speaks with a deep, male sounding voice..."

There was the "bowman" reference but given the issues transgender people face every day with being identified as the gender they're trying not to be, I don't think that's an entirely invalid reference or "mistake" that someone might make.

Again, her entire character is about being transgender. She's a token, you're explicitly including this information simply because it's relevant to her being transgender.

Only if you ignore the modelling (modelling isn't a specific transgender thing - just in case you're unaware), the Scottish accent and the thing with the bow. In fact the other characters have less information. Saint is "a guy who carries a hammer". You've picked on one aspect of her character. Mind you, it is a pretty fundamentally important aspect of her character. As I said, this is something that people struggle with everyday.

If you represent this character as a female model, then at what point do you tell them they used to be transgender? It's certainly not something the character would mention herself because the whole point is that she's not transgender, she is - or is at least trying to be - female. I don't know of a transgender individual who says "I'm transgender" the first time you meet them (or in fact, at any point during your time talking to them - even if you know them for several years. The only ones who seem to mention it constantly are those on the internet). It's something you pick up from the Adam's apple and male features (or alternatively, the female features and higher pitched voice), or the pictures they post of themselves.

I don't think that in and of itself justifies the inclusion of misgendering her, especially given that we aren't given any sort of insight into how it makes her feel or how it influences her life.

So your preference, after arguing that "her whole character is just about being transgender" - even though this character would not mention it in conversation at all - is to encounter this character and have her launch into a tirade about how it feels to be transgender and how it influences her life... And you're accusing me of being the one creating caricatures?

From the perspective of the player, and not the person who designed the encounter, we're just seeing another example of a transgender person who isn't where they want to be yet, and indeed I'm saying that seems to be the only way that anyone wants to depict us.

Yes, because this character isn't where she wants to be yet. Or are you saying that only fully transistioned individuals should be represented?

In this case, "Lady Sarah" is clearly identifying herself as female. She's wearing a dress which is also a female identifier. As dresses usually allow others to see the legs, we indicate that the legs are shaved. Again, another female identifier. There is the potential that she may simply be perceived as a cross-dresser, something which the name and the legs attempt to alleviate. IE: She is clearly trying to present as female by doing feminine things. There's also the possibility she may be a Drag Queen but we're hopefully avoiding that by not saying, for example, that she's wearing a blonde wig and heavy make-up.

You seem to have a tremendous amount of faith in the ability of the audience to sense these nuances and interpret them appropriately. I think that the distinctions you're citing, even if I allow my guard to slip and assume they are well intended, will be entirely overshadowed by the alread extant attitudes of the viewer.

But this isn't an issue with the character, this is an issue with the viewer.

Except now we run into the disconnect in that she's "not" - or at least wasn't born that way (I don't want to get into whether she's post-op or pre-op).

So let's go for the quickest, easiest, and most well trod route to demonstrating it.

Well, from what you've just said, apparently the only other alternative is to encounter a female character who tells you all about her struggle as a transgender individual. Is this a conversation you have with people you've just met? "Hi, I'm transgender. This is something I've struggled with all my life..."

Not that I even agree with what follows:

Now the entire issue of trans-genderism is the struggle for people who are one thing, to try and appear to be another.

See, this just isn't how I would described 'the entire issue of transgenderism,' as a transgender person that is. I strongly doubt that any transgender person would describe 'the entire issue of transgenderism' in such a way. For one, we're talking about *gender,* not *sex*

Like I said, "character model identifies her as female" (think sex) but she clearly identifies as female (think gender). Both sex and gender are being represented. Mind you, in the rest of the world, "sex" and "gender" are interchangeable terms that mean the same thing.

, so from that angle it's possible that somebody *is* what they are 'trying to be.' While somebody's biological birth sex is immutable, how they are perceived by society can and does change, and while these two things do not always line up, the fact that they don't line up for some people is not essential to the struggle of all transgender people. There are transgender people who effectively function within society as the gender they present, not the gender they transitioned from.

Right. So...

You encounter Lady Sarah McArts: "Let's talk about *gender,* not *sex*. From that angle it's possible that somebody *is* what they are 'trying to be.' While somebody's biological birth sex is immutable, how they are perceived by society can and does change, and while these two things do not always line up, the fact that they don't line up for some people is not essential to the struggle of all transgender people. There are transgender people who effectively function within society as the gender they present, not the gender they transitioned from."​

Choose your response:
- uhhh...
- I just wanted to trade?
- Bye!

Again, the alternative is you encounter a female character who is female - and you never, ever learn that she was ever male. The issue of transgenderism is never raised, everyone thinks it's a female and you get the absurd situation where someone then later claims "they were really transvestite warrior males!". Which also completely destroys the point of making the reference in the first place. It'd be like encountering a character called "Bob" and saying "That was actually Saint Proverbius!"

You've been a bit more civil with this post and put me off my guard, but I have to wonder if tidbits such as this are truly intended to be informative rather than simply inflaming. As you know, it's rather frustrating to be reminded as a transgender person by somebody who isn't transgender what transgender people encounter.

Yep - and the problem is that's entirely what I want to convery with this character. You want to ignore it, sweep it under the carpet and pretend it doesn't exist. You don't want to look at the elephant in the room because it's too personal.

Given this is a game and the entire point of this character is to portray a trans-gender individual, we at some point need to make it clear to the player that this person, is in fact a trans-gender individual.

Maybe that's the problem? Why is it important that we include a transgender person? That doesn't seem to fit any sort of vibe that the rest of the party has going on. I don't see how it overlaps with any of the other characters. The inclusion of a transgender person seems arbitrary when we look at the bases on which the other characters are included.

Both SMA and yourself have made your persona's here on the Codex very firmly around your gender issues. Any reference to either of you HAS to include such references. Hell, if I'd posted naked pictures of myself and kept talking about my cock all the time, then any representation of me in-game would be expected to include references to that. Just as Cleve is referenced by his prophecies and metal bones, just as Andhaira is referenced by Rat Diplomacy.

I mean, just why were the other guys included? Let's investigate that:

St. Proverbius - 'Cool dude,' seems to be held up as an example of something that was lost in the decline. We see references to his staff position and use of the banhammer. A tenuous but fair connection to his forum persona.
Cleve - Epic lolcow who has written thread upon thread of scientology style science fiction narratives. We see too many references to count, all from divergent threads, honestly the best designed character of the bunch imo.
Andhaira - Troll who spawned the rat diplomacy meme.
Vault Dweller - Another 'cool dude' who represents some sort of erudition that's been lost.

So why is a tranny the best fit here again? I'm honestly not even sure how we're all that indicative of codex culture at large. Why not include one of your little internet detectives instead? There seems to be a rather strong culture for that around here.

I have two sticky threads in Retardo Land about transgender issues - both of which include naked pictures. A thread in GD were SMA is talking about her gender issues in seeking employment, and another where she asks people to critique her voice as to whether it's sufficiently female sounding (with comments that it sounds like a man trying to sound female). And right here, right now, I'm having a discussion with you about gender issues and transgenderism.

This does not happen on any other internet forum I've ever been a member of. So when including an appropriately Codexian reference in a computer game, with a party that represents the Codex, I think it's fair to include someone who's struggling with their gender. In much the same way it would be fair to include a troll, and Cleve. As you said, you've made "a buffoon of yourself". Not including it would be ignoring Codexian history.

What is RPG Codex? Trannies and trolls.

Never mind the fact that during the decade of decline, the trannies have mainly contributed by... posting about their adventures in buttfuckery and dickery in GD (with all respect). And the trolls? They troll dozens of RPG and gaming forums. Including Codex.

So uniquely Codex, don't you say?

I get that a lot of you like trannies. Whether it is a genuine sexual fetish or you just enjoy the way that flaunting the topic riles people up... But hey, this thingamoe where you are pouring money at, what was it supposed to be about again?

I find it amusing that same people can be so dismissive of GD and GD posters, yet when it comes to picking representatives of the Codex, they pick... GD posters. And Internet trolls.

You encounter a party of 6 characters. They seem to be fighting amongst each other...

NPC 1: "That's not what RPG means you cock-smoking whore!"

NPC 2: "No, your definition is wrong!"

NPC 3:"My definition is more prestigious than the other definitions that have been proposed."

NPC 4: "Everything is shit."

NPC 5: "Fuck you all, I liked how things were before you changed it all."

NPC 6: "I like how things are now."

 

[kaizoku]

So much sexual tension.

 

[Kaiserin]

Rendering her(or any tranny for that matter) as a man in a dress with shaven legs otoh, is.

Heh. Tell me, just what is bothering you here?

That people think trannies are icky? That the Codex regards trannies as a kind of perverse blackface-like mascot for the site? Or, do you just not want to be portrayed as (gasp) sexually unattractive?

All three, but particularly the second one.

As for the third one, well yeah I think that is indicative of exactly how you are stereotyping me. There's this assumption that I demand that people find me sexually attractive, however implicit, and that's really frustrating. If I were to render a transsexual in a work of fiction, I would do so in a very realistic manner, that is to say I would make her(in the case of an MtF) appear very non-descript and probably quite plain looking. I'm not living in some sort of an alternate reality where I think we are all super models. I'm just thoroughly put out that people insist on only representing us in the very most vulnerable ways imaginable.

I'm reminded of Sailer's Law of Female Journalism:

The most heartfelt articles by female journalists tend to be demands that social values be overturned in order that, Come the Revolution, the journalist herself will be considered hotter-looking.

Yeah, I totally represent anarchy and free spirited behavior, if by that you mean utterly self-indulgent, deluded, sex crazed, and starved for attention that's definitely how the Codex views us. I tend to more think that it's a group of people entitled by their own sense of anonymity who are taking time to point and laugh at people they most often label as 'mentally ill'(not my own words) though.

For even more glorious butthurt, DU could make so that only the actual backers have a vote on the final party.

I would have thought that you would have a little more compassion from where I'm coming from. Or do you hope to be included as a limp wristed lisping guy in a short shorts who talks about his adventures in glory holes?

Hmm, you know I don't really think that's a fair assessment of what I've done here. Just check my posting history, hell check ALL of the threads that I've ever started, and the number of them that are about trannies, should you find any at all, is less than 1%. I am not sure at all how I 'flaunted the topic' when it wasn't even myself who made mention of my own gender identity to begin with, but the workings of people who became obsessed with me and investigated details about my life.

Yeah, that was the point I was trying to have. Trannytalk is very small part of the posts of a handful of posters who to my mind would not stand out as posters (when it comes to RPGs) if not for that one meaningless detail.

In that sense, a school yard bully who tries to get a rise out of someone who is different (or in the case of Prosper, mentally ill) would be much more descriptive character of a "Codexian" party than a tranny.

I appreciate you coming out and recognizing that. This post is overwhelmingly encouraging and makes me reconsider my butthurt altogether.

No. But this is the challenge transgender individuals have to deal with on a daily basis. It's interesting that your argument is almost entirely based around how players will perceive the individual in question - rather than on the actual individual themselves.

I don't see why it's all that interesting that I'm sensitive to sensational depictions of a highly ridiculed group. Obviously, all of the difference is made in how people view these things. After all, if everybody just loved trannies just for being trannies then we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. Social attitudes are of paramount importance when the topic being approached is how a group is depicted in any media.

Once again, there seems to be what I wrote, and how you've chosen to interpret that. You seem to have developed your own assumptions and conclusions and gone off the deep end.

One more time, here's what I actually wrote:

* Lady Sarah McArts - Sarah's NPC model and character sheet clearly identify her as a male, but she is wearing a female's outfit - and has shaved legs. She speaks with a Scottish accent and will tell you that she has "done some nude modelling", the pictures of which appeared on page 25 of "Warrior's Monthly - A magazine for men with unique tastes". She is the group's bowman (erm... bow-woman) and carries a bow.​

From that, you've apparently concluded that I think you're autistic ("where the hell did you ever get the idea that I had autism?"), a clown, and now: Where do I convey that she's done nude modelling out of "desperation"? Her reasons for modelling are not mentioned at all in the original. And in the follow-up variation where I mixed in you, I in fact said the exact opposite: "it was her desire to pursue her career as a professional model". It was this career choice and a disagreement with her partner that lead to her leaving her home town. Not "she needed the bucks".

If this comment had come out of a vacuum, and I hadn't encountered the sorts of comments around here that I have over the past 4 years, then I wouldn't be reacting nearly so strongly. Taken out of context, I will readily agree that what you said is more or less harmless, however, when it's placed into the context of the circumstances under which SMA modeled in real life, the sort of treatment it got here, and prevailing attitudes toward transgender people and their participation in the sex industry, it becomes a tremendous cliche.

Again though, why do you care what I think of your treatment of SMA? I've already stated explicitly that I won't move to interfere with anything you do regarding her image. That's her business, and really all I'm giving is my opinion of it. So I'm failing to see why you are bothering to get so verbose about this, as I can't see where you have any stake in it, and I certainly am not of the impression that you care anything about my 'feelings' or anything like that.

Oh please, I could say the same about Cleve. He's an intelligent man (who's even building his own bunker) who's been involved in the development of a number of highly acclaimed games, even going back to the days when he used to send in code to computer magazines that were (for the time) widely published.

We've reduced him to a stupid barbarian wearing a loin-cloth, with metal bones - who's carrying a doll.

Yet you've taken the things that he wanted to be known about himself and put them out there. He himself spread the baby meme, he himself claimed to have titanium bones, and he himself claims to be of tremendous mass. As for the simple nature of his character, well that's so detached from the reality of it that it's an obvious joke. On the other hand, I'm not sure that everybody here takes it for granted that SMA isn't a man in a dress, or that even so much as half of you view her as anything other than that.

To be honest, I could add in that whenever you speak to this character, she interprets what you say in the most obscenely offensive way possibly and will accuse you of calling her things you never said.

You know, the thing is that you can *imply* things without saying them, and I think that you yourself happen to be very good at it. In fact, it seems to be a skill that you've honed to an art, and it's very common amongst human beings at large. I could call you retarded without actually coming out and using the word 'retard.'(e.g.) I have to wonder if you are capable of grasping what I am putting forward here, or if that's simply too much for you to deal with.

A male who identifies as female, yes. It's kind of like how SMA has a cock (see Retardo Land, pictures page 25).

Sex and gender, yet again.

Now you may wish to think you don't have a cock, or an Adam's apple, or a male-sounding voice or a male's physical build, but you do.

Oh really? I have a male sounding voice and a heavy build? Nobody I encounter on the street seems to think so, or here on the Codex while they were busy fapping and fawning over me for that matter. Just like there were all those polls where 95% of you voted me imminently bangable. I don't think you're openly gay or anything, so I kinda just have to take that as it is.

I would pull out those polls, but I can't use search function. Suffice to say, I recall sheek made one and Dark Individual made the other.

Indeed I've posted my voice here on the codex before and it was not at all male sounding, why let's have a listen shall we:
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=MSazeq4CIlOoGAYCw4mPh4h4l5k2TGxc
In the thread where this was originally posted, a few people even ventured to say that people were desperately attempting to troll, and
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/your-accent-in-english.34430/page-4

Would you prefer it if it was a female character model with a description that says "You see a large butch of a female with a prominent adam's apple and a heavy male build. She speaks with a deep, male sounding voice..."

Again, not all transsexuals fit the description that you are giving, you're just assuming they do:

So these assessments of your own about transpeople, and particularly myself, are not based on any personal observation, but merely assumptions that you have made based on stereotypes. Not to say that there are not a very significant portion of us who have the misfortune of not appeared as the gender they feel they are, but to level these comments at myself , or trannies at large, is ridiculous.

Only if you ignore the modelling (modelling isn't a specific transgender thing - just in case you're unaware),

I tell you what, I will cut out comments like this and make an attempt to stop being a belligerent asshole if you will do the same? Honestly, I would like to communicate on a serious level here without just spewing bile. I confess that I reacted strongly to start but my anger has largely subsided and I would like to voice things as clearly as possible from this point onward.

In fact the other characters have less information. Saint is "a guy who carries a hammer". You've picked on one aspect of her character. Mind you, it is a pretty fundamentally important aspect of her character. As I said, this is something that people struggle with everyday.

It's more about why she's being selected to appear at all that concerns me with regard to this very specific part of the argument.

If you represent this character as a female model, then at what point do you tell them they used to be transgender?

As I stated in the previous post, a lootable letter or photo would be a marvelous way to convey the point imo. It would also lend more room for actually depicting the nuances of how those around her feel, and allow her to be depicted in a manner that wasn't like every other depiction of transwomen I can think of.

It's certainly not something the character would mention herself because the whole point is that she's not transgender, she is - or is at least trying to be - female. I don't know of a transgender individual who says "I'm transgender" the first time you meet them (or in fact, at any point during your time talking to them - even if you know them for several years. The only ones who seem to mention it constantly are those on the internet).

Well, you probably don't have much experience with transgender people then. As in my having had quite in depth conversations with dozens upon dozens and friendships with a few, I've only encountered two in my entire life who lived in such a way that they didn't inform others they were transgendered at some point in knowing them.

It's something you pick up from the Adam's apple and male features (or alternatively, the female features and higher pitched voice), or the pictures they post of themselves.

Again, you have this assumption that people are automatically able to notice. In my context, you just entirely revise history altogether, as it wasn't the content of the pictures that gave me away, it was the CONTEXT in which they were sitting. Indeed, nobody here knew I was a tranny simply by looking at me, or if they did nobody seemed to SAY that, instead I refer you again to the polls where people voted me bangable:

So your preference, after arguing that "her whole character is just about being transgender" - even though this character would not mention it in conversation at all - is to encounter this character and have her launch into a tirade about how it feels to be transgender and how it influences her life... And you're accusing me of being the one creating caricatures?

Who is the one making assumptions now? I provided a solution and it didn't involve that at all. Honestly, I don't think that a one-shot encounter is the place to explore the transsexuality of a person at all, but if it was I would say that a lootable item would be the best way to pull it off. Hell, perhaps a belt of male/female even.

Yes, because this character isn't where she wants to be yet. Or are you saying that only fully transistioned individuals should be represented?

I'm saying that there are a wealth of transitioning characters who are represented in media, typically in an unflattering manner, exactly as you are proposing it happen. I didn't say it shouldn't happen, I said that I want no part of it and that I think it's unoriginal and derivative. Notice how I am remaining pretty much entirely consistent here?

But this isn't an issue with the character, this is an issue with the viewer.

Those things aren't connected? Because I definitely think that the way that you design a character is going to steer people toward certain conclusions. I can provide examples if you wish, but I think if you think about it honestly you'll find a few things come to mind rather quick.

Well, from what you've just said, apparently the only other alternative is to encounter a female character who tells you all about her struggle as a transgender individual. Is this a conversation you have with people you've just met? "Hi, I'm transgender. This is something I've struggled with all my life..."

Not at all. I'll repeat it every single time you say otherwise, a lootable item would be much more effective and subtle.

Like I said, "character model identifies her as female" (think sex) but she clearly identifies as female (think gender). Both sex and gender are being represented. Mind you, in the rest of the world, "sex" and "gender" are interchangeable terms that mean the same thing.

Wait, didn't you just spend several lines diminishing the importance of what the audience thought? The two things are distinct in an academic sense that isn't limited to simply discussing transsexuality(it's brought up in a number of social science disciplines), and that was what I was referring to. If you are going to dismiss anything that I have to say about what how others will interpret it, why do you then use that same basis to discredit my distinction between sex and gender?

Right. So...

You encounter Lady Sarah McArts: "Let's talk about *gender,* not *sex*. From that angle it's possible that somebody *is* what they are 'trying to be.' While somebody's biological birth sex is immutable, how they are perceived by society can and does change, and while these two things do not always line up, the fact that they don't line up for some people is not essential to the struggle of all transgender people. There are transgender people who effectively function within society as the gender they present, not the gender they transitioned from."​

This obviously isn't the context that I put this in, and you kind of just forced it somewhere for the purpose of making an appeal to ridicule. I suspect that you know that I wasn't suggesting the character say that, so much as I was attempting to make clear to you that some transgender people actually do manage to live in the gender role of their choosing and rather than people around them challenging it or tolerating it, actually reinforce it without even being aware of doing so.​

Again, the alternative is you encounter a female character who is female - and you never, ever learn that she was ever male. The issue of transgenderism is never raised, everyone thinks it's a female and you get the absurd situation where someone then later claims "they were really transvestite warrior males!". Which also completely destroys the point of making the reference in the first place. It'd be like encountering a character called "Bob" and saying "That was actually Saint Proverbius!"

Nope, the alternative that I provided was a lootable item, being either a letter, photo, or gender changing magical item.

Yep - and the problem is that's entirely what I want to convery with this character. You want to ignore it, sweep it under the carpet and pretend it doesn't exist. You don't want to look at the elephant in the room because it's too personal.

I don't want to sweep it under the carpet and pretend it doesn't exist. I just don't feel that we need yet another example of that sitting out there being so 'in yo face.' Are you really not understanding me on this? Or are you being disingenuous and trying to have a go at me?

Hedwig and the Angry Inch covered that base over a decade ago, everybody knows about it. Everybody has heard that song Lola by the Kinks, and Dude Looks Like a Lady, everybody is familiar with what drag queens look like, the most visible segment of the transgender population is exactly the portion that you want to put forward into this game. From my perspective, you are the one who is reinforcing the anonymity and invisibility of passable transgender people who get along without friction.

Both SMA and yourself have made your persona's here on the Codex very firmly around your gender issues.

Again, I attempted to escape the reputation more than once. I didn't broach it to begin with, other people who were crushing on me played investigator with my business, and I even switched names to avoid it.

I haven't made any threads broaching the topic, though yes I've admittedly reacted explosively after months upon months of ridicule and baiting. Yes, that was my fault for being young and stupid, I'm not blaming you guys but I just don't see how you can interpret that as me making a point of the fact that I am a tranny in every single post, when really the fact of the matter is that I've tried to dodge it and diminish it as much as possible.

Any reference to either of you HAS to include such references.

What makes us worth referencing at all then?

Hell, if I'd posted naked pictures of myself and kept talking about my cock all the time, then any representation of me in-game would be expected to include references to that.

I did that one time after Knightrider came into every single thread that I posted in, for months mind you, ranting about how I will never have children and how I am a sad pathetic eunuch drug addict blah blah blah blah blah.

One time, and how many other things have I said here? How much of my total posting does that actually comprise?

Again, less than 1%.

But hey, you know I feel like as bad on me as that was, it's like somebody just goaded somebody who was volatile until they exploded, and then like sharks you guys are going to circle around making a fool out of me forever about it. I sincerely wish I had never done that to be honest, it's honestly something I regret very deeply because of how it's affected the way that people view me. Which, yeah I do care quite a bit about that in spite of my rather facile attempts to feign indifference.

Blah blah, emo garbage, but I'm serious. If I could take it back I would, and it makes me sad that this is what's been put at the forefront of 'who I am' with regard to my posting here. If I could just wipe the slate clean and post anonymously, I would, but I've tried and failed, and not because I spend too much time talking about my cock and trannies for goodness sake.

Just as Cleve is referenced by his prophecies and metal bones, just as Andhaira is referenced by Rat Diplomacy.

There is some fairness to this, I just have to concede it. Then again, I wasn't asking that you not depict a transgender person. I was asking that you not depict a transgender person in what I view as a cliche and trite manner that's been done to death.

This does not happen on any other internet forum I've ever been a member of. So when including an appropriately Codexian reference in a computer game, with a party that represents the Codex, I think it's fair to include someone who's struggling with their gender. In much the same way it would be fair to include a troll, and Cleve. As you said, you've made "a buffoon of yourself". Not including it would be ignoring Codexian history.

At this point, I will admit in a bald faced manner that I don't really care about 'Codexian history.' While there are some individuals here that I hang around to pay attention to, for reasons that are mysterious to myself, I'm rather sickened by the culture of this place when it really comes down to it. I feel like it's a microcosm of every sort of 'oh no you didn't type of behavior that is turning people into cynical callous assholes who are looking for their next fix of sensationalism.

So as ashamed as I am of what I did, and as personally responsible as I feel for it(because really it was my own ignorance, youth, and personality flaws that led to me allowing myself to be so god damned incensed to begin with), it was years ago and yeah I would like to put it behind me. I am going to attempt to silence it on that basis, because I don't have any respect for a culture that I sincerely don't feel has any respect for me. But again, you don't have to put me in the game, so I don't know why you even care to argue this out with me. You can find a way to slip your snide and dehumanizing japes without further dragging me through the dirt any further.

As for you personally, referring to me as a 'resident transgender wannabe' to MCA in addendum to my request was pretty much proof positive that the issue runs deeper than just friendly ribbing. I paid real money and you took liberty with my request in a way that you didn't with anyone else's save denizsi, and for similar reasons of finding their gender suspect no less. Given that track record, it's very hard to believe that you have an interest in anything other than milking me, or anyone in my position for that matter, for laughs at any expense.

 

[Infinitron]

You're being too serious, Kaiserin. This is beginning to remind me of Qwinn's meltdown thread. Don't go there.

 

[Kaiserin]

I've already been there and back more than once.

 

[Infinitron]

Well then get a grip. This is a forum about computer games. Nobody is here to victimize you. (We're also not here to be your friends, so you should not feel "betrayed" when people act insensitively.)

That said, I'm beginning to agree that the "finding an item" solution could work nicely. It could even be lulzy. Although I think certain posters here might suggest, ahem, an inappropriate item to find on your corpse.

 

[Jaesun]

For even more glorious butthurt, DU could make so that only the actual backers have a vote on the final party.

I would have thought that you would have a little more compassion from where I'm coming from. Or do you hope to be included as a limp wristed lisping guy in a short shorts who talks about his adventures in glory holes?

I have not been reading you and DU's GIGANTIC WALL OF TEXT CRITICALLY HITTING ASS AND LEG. I just assume Kaiserin gonna Kaiserin. If there was a gay character, that was limp wristed lisping guy in a short shorts who talks about his adventures in glory holes in the game, I would find that fucking hysterical. Does it bother me? Nope. IT'S JUST A VIDEO GAME. I DON'T CARE.

 

[Jasede]

Mental illness, what do you expect? You don't even get hormone treatment legally without having a mental illness, excuse me, seeing a therapist.

 

[Infinitron]

Jaesun's character would be more likely to be something akin to Tom Hardy's character in RocknRolla.

 

[Kaiserin]

Well then get a grip. This is a forum about computer games. Nobody is here to victimize you. (We're also not here to be your friends, so you should not feel "betrayed" when people act insensitively.)

For the most part I don't feel that way. I also never used the word betrayed, so I'm not sure what you are quoting.

I consider the shit with my last donation a definite betrayal of trust however. That's really what sent me down this line of thinking in a serious manner, up until that point I simply rationalized that it was internet bravado and hardassery. However, when somebody decides to take liberty with what was supposed to be *my request* that I supposedly was being rewarded for a *real money donation* exceeding what a large portion of the world makes in a week, to inform a complete stranger that I am a 'wannabe tranny' then it sort of conveys the image that this runs a little deeper than chest beating.

All of this here in this thread just started with me saying that I'm glad I got left out given the treatment of SMA's personage. The rest has been pulled elicited from me through DU's responses. I'll only go so far in defense of what I said as he'll go in the way of attempting to deconstruct it. If he's going to take it to the absolute hilt in that way, well then I don't see why I shouldn't respond in kind. I view my action here as entirely symmetrical.

Also, while I don't consider the vast majority of you friends, I like to think that some of you have managed to become about as much of a friend as is possible given the medium that we are communicating through. I have made at least one real friend due to my perusal of this forum, and honestly I don't see why it would be unrealistic to expect that I might make another, somewhere down the line, given my experience with internet fora at large. So I'm not sure how expecting a little bit of baseline decency regarding commercial matters and the use of somebody's personage, or at least something other than a completely hostile response to concerns aired involved those two things, is 'not having a grip.'

I just assume Kaiserin gonna Kaiserin.

What does that even mean?

If there was a gay character(named Jaesun), that was limp wristed lisping guy in a short shorts who talks about his adventures in glory holes in the game, I would find that fucking hysterical. Does it bother me? Nope. IT'S JUST A VIDEO GAME. I DON'T CARE.

I added the important part.

Also, I don't believe in such a thing as 'just a video game.' That might be why I continue to post here. Either way, whether it's offensive or not, laughing at another portrayal of a lispy fag is a sign of a bad sense of humor. Again, it's not about it being 'offensive' so much as it's BSB, and I said just as much if you bothered to read. I called his idea 'unoriginal and derivative,' and I can't help but feel that I am entirely correct in that assessment.

Mental illness, what do you expect? You don't even get hormone treatment legally without having a mental illness, excuse me, seeing a therapist.

I don't think I expressed any sort of offense at it being labeled a mental illness. I just pointed out that you guys sure seem to handle mental illness in a predatory manner given the treatment of Prosper and others who have clearly been off their rocker, so it doesn't strike me as all that surprising that y'all enjoy treating trannies in the same way. That is to say, ridiculing them until they explode and then laughing at the fallout from their tirades until the well beyond the end of time.

People think that I am attaching value judgments to these sorts of things when really I'm just declaring my own stance in relation to it. I'm not calling you all evil, just expressing my disgust for the social dynamic that arises around this place from time to time.

Call me a fluffy pansy carebear if you like, but crassness and the utter indulgence in it is beginning to wear on me. It's not just the Codex, it's society at large at this point. I just feel like people are very reluctant to put their own foot forward whilst they are extremely quick to snap at those who do. The internet has just fueled it, faceless and formless masses sit around beating each other off and shouting down whoever has the nerve to stick their neck out and show a little sincerity.

 

[Infinitron]

Call me a fluffy pansy carebear if you like, but crassness and the utter indulgence in it is beginning to wear on me. It's not just the Codex, it's society at large at this point. I just feel like people are very reluctant to put their own foot forward whilst they are extremely quick to snap at those who do. The internet has just fueled it, faceless and formless masses sit around beating each other off and shouting down whoever has the nerve to stick their neck out and show a little sincerity.

Humanity has risen! would applaud.

 

[Kaiserin]

Humanity has risen! would applaud.

Except that poster is the epitome of multi-layered sarcasm and disingenuous trolling. However, I'm sure that the character that he's playing would certainly applaud.

Also to clarify, I wasn't denouncing indulgence at large, but indulgence in crassness and 'y u mad bro?' flavored antisocial behavior. Nobody has to be my friend in order for me to let up when I begin to pick up on the idea that I might be genuinely hurting their feelings, nor does somebody have to be my friend in order for me to honor a commercial agreement that I enter with them, but then again I'm just an utterly marginal and irrelevant speck of dust that's entirely out of step with the cadence the world marches to.

EDIT: And I'm not of the impression that it's just me that this shit happens to. What went down with Dicksmoker was despicable, no matter how loathsome of a presence he might be on these forums. To hell there aren't people here who seek to bring people down in a very legit manner if they are doing things like that. I don't know what else you can call it when there are people going out of their way to meddle in people's personal lives like that.

 

[RK47]

What is RPG Codex?

where you are pouring money at, what was it supposed to be about again?

I find it amusing that same people can be so dismissive of GD and GD posters, yet when it comes to picking representatives of the Codex, they pick... GD posters. And Internet trolls.

No Haba, don't ruin it~~ Don't make them realize their stupidity!!!!

 

[attackfighter]

In that sense, a school yard bully who tries to get a rise out of someone who is different (or in the case of Prosper, mentally ill) would be much more descriptive character of a "Codexian" party than a tranny.

That sounds more like teasing than bullying.

Bullies I always figured were dysfunctional people who took their anger out on vulnerable targets, in order to feel better about themselves.

Also I wouldn't say that Codexers tease Prosper, so much as that he constantly posts here for attention and we sarcastically oblige him.

 

[Kaiserin]

Bullies I always figured were dysfunctional people who took their anger out on vulnerable targets, in order to feel better about themselves.

What separates this from habitually harassing people to get a rise? I mean, you're doing it for entertainment, and entertainment has a way of making you feel good.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

I would have thought that you would have a little more compassion from where I'm coming from. Or do you hope to be included as a limp wristed lisping guy in a short shorts who talks about his adventures in glory holes?

* Son of Jay: You see a limp wristed guy in short shorts. When spoken to, he talks about his adventures at the "Glory Hole", an inn. As it's former proprietor, he tells you of many fascinating stories of things that used to go bump in the night. You assume they're ghost stories.

Hmm, you know I don't really think that's a fair assessment of what I've done here. Just check my posting history, hell check ALL of the threads that I've ever started, and the number of them that are about trannies, should you find any at all, is less than 1%. I am not sure at all how I 'flaunted the topic' when it wasn't even myself who made mention of my own gender identity to begin with, but the workings of people who became obsessed with me and investigated details about my life.

Yeah, that was the point I was trying to have. Trannytalk is very small part of the posts of a handful of posters who to my mind would not stand out as posters (when it comes to RPGs) if not for that one meaningless detail.

Yeah, and rat diplomacy was one thread (30 pages, now stickied in Retardo) that got mentioned a handful of times and which only a handful of posters ever refer to.

Compared to the tranny topic:
- Not one, but TWO stickies in Retardo Land (49 pages for "Kaiserin is a Tranny" and 44 pages for "pics on page 25").
- Constant "attention whoring" threads in GD (job, voice lessons, other topics over the years)
- A guy wanting a tranny to shit on his chest.
- Not to mention the forum that Ausir created and the time GD was renamed "General Transexual Discussion" because of the sheer number of topics that were coming up about the issue.

A MySQL Full Text Search on *transex* gives 321 results while *transgen* gives 636 results. *trannie* however, gives 3,916 and *tranny* returns a whopping 7,119 messages that mention the word.

A search for *rat dip*(lomacy) returns 293 results. A search for *equip the ring* - a long-standing and original Codex meme - gives 402 results, under half those for posts that specifically use two words related to transexualism (IE: It doesn't cover jobs, voices or other threads that have arisen).

Close your eyes and say "nyah" as much as you like, transgenderism is a theme that's a lot more common than a lot of others are on the Codex.

If this comment had come out of a vacuum, and I hadn't encountered the sorts of comments around here that I have over the past 4 years, then I wouldn't be reacting nearly so strongly. Taken out of context, I will readily agree that what you said is more or less harmless, however, when it's placed into the context of the circumstances under which SMA modeled in real life, the sort of treatment it got here, and prevailing attitudes toward transgender people and their participation in the sex industry, it becomes a tremendous cliche.

So basing something on events that have actually happened is, according to you, "a cliche" - seemingly some kind of horrible stereotype - and we should instead ignore what has actually happened and create some kind of false portrayal instead?

Right.

Oh please, I could say the same about Cleve. He's an intelligent man (who's even building his own bunker) who's been involved in the development of a number of highly acclaimed games, even going back to the days when he used to send in code to computer magazines that were (for the time) widely published.

We've reduced him to a stupid barbarian wearing a loin-cloth, with metal bones - who's carrying a doll.

Yet you've taken the things that he wanted to be known about himself and put them out there. He himself spread the baby meme, he himself claimed to have titanium bones, and he himself claims to be of tremendous mass. As for the simple nature of his character, well that's so detached from the reality of it that it's an obvious joke. On the other hand, I'm not sure that everybody here takes it for granted that SMA isn't a man in a dress, or that even so much as half of you view her as anything other than that.

All those stories are only known precisely because SMA made them known about herself though. Nobody else gave us her naked pictures where we could see the "male character model" in its full glory. No-one else told us about the struggles she's having with finding work, with the modelling she did, relationships (which I left out), some guy wanting her to shit on his chest.

I don't know these things because I'm some kind of mind-reader. SMA told us all about every single one of them. Clearly these are things she wants us to know about her.

A male who identifies as female, yes. It's kind of like how SMA has a cock (see Retardo Land, pictures page 25).

Sex and gender, yet again.

Now you may wish to think you don't have a cock, or an Adam's apple, or a male-sounding voice or a male's physical build, but you do.

Oh really? I have a male sounding voice and a heavy build? Nobody I encounter on the street seems to think so, or here on the Codex while they were busy fapping and fawning over me for that matter. Just like there were all those polls where 95% of you voted me imminently bangable. I don't think you're openly gay or anything, so I kinda just have to take that as it is.

I would pull out those polls, but I can't use search function. Suffice to say, I recall sheek made one and Dark Individual made the other.

Indeed I've posted my voice here on the codex before and it was not at all male sounding, why let's have a listen shall we:
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=MSazeq4CIlOoGAYCw4mPh4h4l5k2TGxc
In the thread where this was originally posted, a few people even ventured to say that people were desperately attempting to troll, and
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/your-accent-in-english.34430/page-4

I should've said SMA rather than you, which is who the character was based on. Although in that thread:

Heh, you don't have a female voice. But you don't really sound like a male either. Your voice is that one of a boy. I assume that's because IIRC you started taking hormones at early age, and your voice never broke. Interesting.

But as to the "male build", you have a cock. Don't make me post the picture of it dancing. And again, these are things you chose to put out there yourself.

Would you prefer it if it was a female character model with a description that says "You see a large butch of a female with a prominent adam's apple and a heavy male build. She speaks with a deep, male sounding voice..."

Again, not all transsexuals fit the description that you are giving, you're just assuming they do:

So these assessments of your own about transpeople, and particularly myself, are not based on any personal observation

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ing-pics-on-page-25.35153/page-25#post-869674

Uh, no. Just no. You look like a man with a bad make-up. And before some smartass says that's the point, no it's not. It's tranny porn, not gay porn.

You would have been a handsome man, SMA.

Seeing as how I'll need my cock to make it in this business, that means SRS is quite a ways off. Other surgeries though will happen as soon as I have the money. Hair transplants to feminize my hairline, breast implants, hip enhancement, rib reduction, facial feminization surgery, trachea shave, etc. could start happening as soon as a few months from now.

I see your point about needing the other surgeries.

Sweet Jesus I wish I hadn't but I do.

Also - an eyebrow wax is like $10. Invest a little.

Now tell me again that these aren't based on any personal observation.

, but merely assumptions that you have made based on stereotypes.

Stereotype. Sure, that must be what that is. Totally.

Not to say that there are not a very significant portion of us who have the misfortune of not appeared as the gender they feel they are, but to level these comments at myself , or trannies at large, is ridiculous.

So all trannies that appear in-game should be fully transistioned then?

In fact the other characters have less information. Saint is "a guy who carries a hammer". You've picked on one aspect of her character. Mind you, it is a pretty fundamentally important aspect of her character. As I said, this is something that people struggle with everyday.

It's more about why she's being selected to appear at all that concerns me with regard to this very specific part of the argument.

Well, like I said, it's the same reason we selected Andhaira. He's someone who posts his shit everywhere and as a result of that, you can't miss him.

If you represent this character as a female model, then at what point do you tell them they used to be transgender?

As I stated in the previous post, a lootable letter or photo would be a marvelous way to convey the point imo. It would also lend more room for actually depicting the nuances of how those around her feel, and allow her to be depicted in a manner that wasn't like every other depiction of transwomen I can think of.

That's actually a good idea. I like that. My main issue was to convey that "this is a transgender character" and doing it without having some lame comversation about transgender issues that only transgender people care about. Much like your comment and "sex and gender" being definined terms in social literature...

... nobody reads social literature that defines "sex and gender" as different except people who have an issue with it.

It's certainly not something the character would mention herself because the whole point is that she's not transgender, she is - or is at least trying to be - female. I don't know of a transgender individual who says "I'm transgender" the first time you meet them (or in fact, at any point during your time talking to them - even if you know them for several years. The only ones who seem to mention it constantly are those on the internet).

Well, you probably don't have much experience with transgender people then. As in my having had quite in depth conversations with dozens upon dozens and friendships with a few, I've only encountered two in my entire life who lived in such a way that they didn't inform others they were transgendered at some point in knowing them.

I've worked with two. One ("Sarah") was the biggest fucking butch man you ever met. I shit you not. And yes, he wore a dress. Turns out that stereotype is based in reality. He never mentioned it, and nobody else wanted to go there. Instead, it was something everyone spoke about when they weren't around. The other is of that age where nobody cares - but again, it's the elephant in the room that gets mentioned in whispered conversations when she's not around.

I also used to work for the Government Department that dealt with birth registrations and had to deal with a few cases where we needed to change the "M" to an "F" on the birth certificate. Not one of those

Maybe it's just bad luck that means I'm not meeting the hot sexy ones.

So your preference, after arguing that "her whole character is just about being transgender" - even though this character would not mention it in conversation at all - is to encounter this character and have her launch into a tirade about how it feels to be transgender and how it influences her life... And you're accusing me of being the one creating caricatures?

Who is the one making assumptions now? I provided a solution and it didn't involve that at all. Honestly, I don't think that a one-shot encounter is the place to explore the transsexuality of a person at all[/quote]
Why not? Why does every encounter with a transgender individual have to result in a long-winded discussion about the difference between "sex" and "gender" and how many people find them bangable? Can't we just have a male model with a female name and leave it up to the player to make their own judgements about what's going on?

But again, I did like the idea of an item.

Like I said, "character model identifies her as female" (think sex) but she clearly identifies as female (think gender). Both sex and gender are being represented. Mind you, in the rest of the world, "sex" and "gender" are interchangeable terms that mean the same thing.

Wait, didn't you just spend several lines diminishing the importance of what the audience thought?

Yes, it's an issue with their own perception - or their own view of the world. But in the same way that you felt the need to define the terms and then argue their usage, I'm saying, in a sense that that isn't the point. We aren't going to have "sex" and "gender" as two separate fields in the character sheet. There's going to be the character model (which I assume is defined by the sheet, hence the correlation) and the character themselves. The point is to let the audience think what they will.

The two things are distinct in an academic sense that isn't limited to simply discussing transsexuality(it's brought up in a number of social science disciplines), and that was what I was referring to. If you are going to dismiss anything that I have to say about what how others will interpret it, why do you then use that same basis to discredit my distinction between sex and gender?

Again, think what you will.

I suspect that you know that I wasn't suggesting the character say that, so much as I was attempting to make clear to you that some transgender people actually do manage to live in the gender role of their choosing and rather than people around them challenging it or tolerating it, actually reinforce it without even being aware of doing so.

Yes, and some aren't that lucky. Both exist.

From my perspective, you are the one who is reinforcing the anonymity and invisibility of passable transgender people who get along without friction.

But are we representing passable transgender individuals or non-passable transgender individuals? Usually the passable transgender individuals are revealed in the end when you get the "SURPRISE COCK" coming out.

Both SMA and yourself have made your persona's here on the Codex very firmly around your gender issues.

Again, I attempted to escape the reputation more than once. I didn't broach it to begin with, other people who were crushing on me played investigator with my business, and I even switched names to avoid it.

I haven't made any threads broaching the topic, though yes I've admittedly reacted explosively after months upon months of ridicule and baiting. Yes, that was my fault for being young and stupid, I'm not blaming you guys but I just don't see how you can interpret that as me making a point of the fact that I am a tranny in every single post, when really the fact of the matter is that I've tried to dodge it and diminish it as much as possible.

And yet here you are, first engaging in this thread expressing your relief that this in-game character representation isn't you. Then standing up and defending the point, and arguing that we should instead do it another way, while also delcaring that you don't really care. Then explaining how sex and gender are defined in social literature and talking about transgender issues and how many people find you bangable, even though you're not the one originally being represented.

Any reference to either of you HAS to include such references.

What makes us worth referencing at all then?

This. This right here. This very conversation.

Hell, if I'd posted naked pictures of myself and kept talking about my cock all the time, then any representation of me in-game would be expected to include references to that.

I did that one time after Knightrider came into every single thread that I posted in, for months mind you, ranting about how I will never have children and how I am a sad pathetic eunuch drug addict blah blah blah blah blah.

One time, and how many other things have I said here? How much of my total posting does that actually comprise?

Again, less than 1%.

And how many times did Cleve say he had metal bones? I'm pretty sure it was just the once. But it was quoted often, much like that dancing one of you naked with the cock hanging out has been posted around the place. And how many times did rat diplomacy come up? Again, I think that too was just once. As a result, Andy Haria becomes a rat-faced individual. Make a mistake once, and it's with you for life.

But hey, you know I feel like as bad on me as that was, it's like somebody just goaded somebody who was volatile until they exploded, and then like sharks you guys are going to circle around making a fool out of me forever about it. I sincerely wish I had never done that to be honest, it's honestly something I regret very deeply because of how it's affected the way that people view me. Which, yeah I do care quite a bit about that in spite of my rather facile attempts to feign indifference.

Yes, I know. It's like how you've been saying how much you don't care, while clearly expressing how much you do care.

Just as Cleve is referenced by his prophecies and metal bones, just as Andhaira is referenced by Rat Diplomacy.

There is some fairness to this, I just have to concede it. Then again, I wasn't asking that you not depict a transgender person. I was asking that you not depict a transgender person in what I view as a cliche and trite manner that's been done to death.

I can't actually recall how many transgender characters have appeared in video games. I thought it was actually pretty rare, but maybe I'm wrong.

At this point, I will admit in a bald faced manner that I don't really care about 'Codexian history.'

Which, as I've suspected, is the real issue. Given this entire encounter meme is based on notable Codexian characters, it's going to involve history. Even Cleve's metal bones is about 10 years old now (it's actually a post he made on another forum many, many years ago - but it sticks with him even until this very day). You can't escape the past, no matter how much you might like to.

 

[Kz3r0]

Kaiserin, for what it counts I really like and appreciate you, cheer up:

PS
Two thing here, this place has always been shit, the redeeming feature was that you can call the pieces of shit by their name, monocle discussions and interesting and likable people are just an added bonus, and King Troll is gonna King Troll.

 

[Kaiserin]

So basing something on events that have actually happened is, according to you, "a cliche" - seemingly some kind of horrible stereotype - and we should instead ignore what has actually happened and create some kind of false portrayal instead?

This is entirely divorced from my original sentiment, and honestly it's a strawman. I never said what you *should* put up there, I said what I find distasteful, and most importantly I just said that I am glad that I'm not involved in your ridicule.

I don't know these things because I'm some kind of mind-reader. SMA told us all about every single one of them. Clearly these are things she wants us to know about her.

Which is why I said that I won't stand in the way of any way that you care to portray her. Why do you conveniently ignore that every time I mention it?

Although in that thread:

Because nobody is ever going to lie to get a rise out of me. I mean seriously, that's the worst you could come up with, and there you leave out the comments where people accused that shitposter of 'desperate' attempts to troll.

But as to the "male build", you have a cock.

Does the word 'build' mean something different in Australia? Because we sure aren't talking about what somebody's genitals look like when we mention somebody's 'build' in America.

Don't make me post the picture of it dancing. And again, these are things you chose to put out there yourself.

Things that I foolishly chose to share about myself.

But what does that have to do with anything? Why does me making a mistake justify raking me over the coals forever in your opinion?

Now tell me again that these aren't based on any personal observation.

You've now shifted goalposts and I can only think that you are being intentionally dishonest. You said that was the case not only for SMA, but myself and ALL trannies.

Stereotype. Sure, that must be what that is. Totally.

I myself said that many trannies are in that misfortunate position, so I'm not at all sure what you are trying to prove here. I simply contested your assertion that it's a matter of fact that all transwomen look and sound like men. That's garbage. You yourself quote it just below even!

So all trannies that appear in-game should be fully transistioned then?

You keep bringing up this 'should' word, and it's not one I used.

I simply said that it's unoriginal to offer yet another depiction of a tranny who is in the midst of transition. It could be handled in other ways, actually convey a hell of a lot more in the process, and offer an example to counter the common assumption that all transwomen look like men in dresses.

Well, like I said, it's the same reason we selected Andhaira. He's someone who posts his shit everywhere and as a result of that, you can't miss him.

Again, it's her baby and while I think it's distasteful to ridicule her even further, I won't stand in the way of you doing it.

That's actually a good idea. I like that. My main issue was to convey that "this is a transgender character" and doing it without having some lame comversation about transgender issues that only transgender people care about. Much like your comment and "sex and gender" being definined terms in social literature...

... nobody reads social literature that defines "sex and gender" as different except people who have an issue with it.

Again, I'm not sure why you made the assumption that my argument with you as an individual meant that I felt every single one of my points should make it into the game.

I've worked with two. One ("Sarah") was the biggest fucking butch man you ever met. I shit you not. And yes, he wore a dress. Turns out that stereotype is based in reality.

Not to say that there are not a very significant portion of us who have the misfortune of not appeared as the gender they feel they are, but to level these comments at myself , or trannies at large, is ridiculous.

He never mentioned it, and nobody else wanted to go there. Instead, it was something everyone spoke about when they weren't around. The other is of that age where nobody cares - but again, it's the elephant in the room that gets mentioned in whispered conversations when she's not around.

Did any of you hang out with her on a personal basis? As in, did any of you go over to their house and actually try to be their friend?

Not going around and saying it to everyone that you meet doesn't mean that you 'never mention it to anyone.'

Maybe it's just bad luck that means I'm not meeting the hot sexy ones.

Inconspicuous != hot sexy, you are putting words in my mouth. Not that hot sexy ones don't exist, as copious amounts of porno stand in testament of.

It also goes without saying that if you encountered a transgender person who was inconspicuous then you never would have known it.

Why not? Why does every encounter with a transgender individual have to result in a long-winded discussion about the difference between "sex" and "gender" and how many people find them bangable?

That's not my opinion, so you're barking up the wrong tree again. The argument I am having with you is not a constructive argument for how I think the encounter should be handled, get that through your head. It's simply me defending my sense of aversion toward having anything to do with your (in my mind)really unfunny joke.

Can't we just have a male model with a female name and leave it up to the player to make their own judgements about what's going on?

Because I think it's been done to death and I personally feel that passable transsexuals are underrepresented in media.

But it's not that I'm saying you *can't* do that, it's that I'm saying that if you depict me in that way I will distance myself from it for a number of reasons.

Yes, it's an issue with their own perception - or their own view of the world. But in the same way that you felt the need to define the terms and then argue their usage, I'm saying, in a sense that that isn't the point. We aren't going to have "sex" and "gender" as two separate fields in the character sheet. There's going to be the character model (which I assume is defined by the sheet, hence the correlation) and the character themselves. The point is to let the audience think what they will.

Are the players going to be able to view the character sheet directly? Couldn't the information be conveyed through something other than the character sheet itself? Isn't that just for Obsidian's use?

Yes, and some aren't that lucky. Both exist.

Not to say that there are not a very significant portion of us who have the misfortune of not appeared as the gender they feel they are, but to level these comments at myself , or trannies at large, is ridiculous.

But are we representing passable transgender individuals or non-passable transgender individuals? Usually the passable transgender individuals are revealed in the end when you get the "SURPRISE COCK" coming out.

But are we representing passable transgender individuals or non-passable transgender individuals? Usually the passable transgender individuals are revealed in the end when you get the "SURPRISE COCK" coming out.

And yet here you are, first engaging in this thread expressing your relief that this in-game character representation isn't you.

So the fact that I talk about it at all, even in response to what others say, means that I am 'basing my persona around my gender issues?'

Because I would have felt that making it the thing that I predominantly spoke about, and going out of my way to get it involved in threads where *nobody else had mentioned such a thing* would have been that.

Then standing up and defending the point, and arguing that we should instead do it another way, while also delcaring that you don't really care.

Again, I never argued that you should do it another way. As long as SMA is the topic of the day, that is her business. I'll just copy paste this from now on I think.

Then explaining how sex and gender are defined in social literature and talking about transgender issues

Because you insisted that she was male in an essential manner, and that nobody could ever actually achieve their aspiration of living out their self-identified gender role. That's patently false, and I provided examples to the contrary.

and how many people find you bangable,

After you implied that nobody could ever possibly mistake me for a woman.

Again, I'm simply countering the arguments you present. If it were any other topic, I would be doing the same thing.

even though you're not the one originally being represented.

Right, which is what makes it all the more confusing that you decided to start making comments about my appearance, voice, and social function.
Again, I attempted to escape the reputation more than once. I didn't broach it to begin with, other people who were crushing on me played investigator with my business, and I even switched names to avoid it.

This. This right here. This very conversation.

How? Why? The fact that you started making comments about me, falsely assuming that I thought the character was about me, and essentially baiting me into an argument? That is notable?

And how many times did Cleve say he had metal bones? I'm pretty sure it was just the once. But it was quoted often, much like that dancing one of you naked with the cock hanging out has been posted around the place. And how many times did rat diplomacy come up? Again, I think that too was just once. As a result, Andy Haria becomes a rat-faced individual. Make a mistake once, and it's with you for life.

Do a metric actually, I'm reasonably certain that in both cases they have made mention of exactly those things many many more times than I have made threads about being transgender.

Also, yeah no shit a mistake stays with you for life. The fact is that it's a mistake though, and again I would ask, why does that make it justifiable to give somebody grief forever over it?

Yes, I know. It's like how you've been saying how much you don't care, while clearly expressing how much you do care.

Where did I ever say that I don't care in this thread? I don't think I ever did actually, I just said that I am forced to grit my teeth and *deal* with whatever hand you decide to give SMA in this debacle. Not once did I ever say that I don't care what you do, I simply said that I am obligated to not interfere on her behalf.

So again, that's a strawman, and that you are picking on something that is so transparently candid and open just further goes to show what kind of a scumbag vulture you really are in my opinion.

I can't actually recall how many transgender characters have appeared in video games. I thought it was actually pretty rare, but maybe I'm wrong.

I've been referring to media at large, and I can actually provide a list of examples of transgender characters in video games:

Birdo(Super Mario), Numerous Fighting Games(Bridgette, Poison, other shit I can't think of), and Day of the Tentacle had a guy in a dress with a beard if I recall correctly.

But yeah, if something has been seen a hundred times elsewhere, it's BOLD NEW TERRITORY if it shows up in a video game so long as it hasn't appeared before yet? I mean it wins by default! So creative111!

Which, as I've suspected, is the real issue. Given this entire encounter meme is based on notable Codexian characters, it's going to involve history. Even Cleve's metal bones is about 10 years old now (it's actually a post he made on another forum many, many years ago - but it sticks with him even until this very day). You can't escape the past, no matter how much you might like to.

I haven't deluded myself into thinking that I can escape it, but I don't see why a lack of endorsement for my own involvement is necessarily construed that way by you.

Oh yeah I do, because you honestly don't give a shit and you are going out of your way to intentionally turn the things I say on their head in order. I acquired a profound distaste for you after the last fundraiser in spite of never having had even the slightest streak of Rancor before that moment. Since then though, and given how you handled it, and your justification for ridiculing people, and obvious lack of anything like remorse, I can only think that you are something of a sociopathic asshole. Not in any sort of a legit sense, I doubt you behave this way when you are face to face with people, but you've entrenched yourself in this forum position and it's made you really callous to pretty much any and everything. You've rationalized that here we are on the internet, so none of that actually has any real gravity, even when real money is involved. It's a sickening delusion that you've cultivated to feel good about letting your shadow come out and play.

Which leads me to ask again: Why are you even holding this argument with me? What is your incentive? I have already said that I feel morally obliged to not interfere with any depiction of SMA that you put forward, and that I only seek to distance myself from this debacle. Given that you are only discussing the inclusion of SMA, why then do you feel a need to argue with me? Again, I know that you don't care about what I think or how I feel, this much is obvious, and I'm not serving as any kind of a road block, so what is your impetus?