Prelude to Darkness combat system

[Saint_Proverbius]

You know, one thing I've noticed is that Prelude of Darkness's combat system basically eliminates one of the ig arguments a lot of people make against turn based combat.

Basically, the system seems to work like this. The person with the highest amount of APs goes first, does one action, and then the next person goes. Continue this until everyone is out of APs. This is different from the traditional AP schemes where you spend all of your APs during your turn, and then go to the next person.

When you think about it, this still allows some terrain use for tactical combat, but completely stops the whole exploiting of the system where you can pop out, fire at someone, and then get back to cover.

By it's nature, this also removes the need for interrupts like JA2 and FOT had, since after they move out in to the open, the next person may or may not have their sequence pulled up because they have APs available.

I also like the types of attacks possible. Depending on how many APs you have, you can do strong, quick, standard, and aimed attacks at low levels. This adds a nice element of options to the standard melee system, which is something a lot of games seem to miss out on. Most just offer "Attack" as the only melee option.

Really, about the only thing missing from Prelude to Darkness's combat system that would crush all the legitimate arguments against turn based is if it had multitarget attacks similar to Avernum's magic. Mutlitarget options work great on those encounters where you're up against a horde of creatures that can't possibly harm you, but you still have to wipe them all out to move on.

 

[thathmew]

Multi-target options

Glad you like the system. I've never really understood why turn-based always involved using your entire turn or a character's entire turn before someone else, I suspect it's simply a relic of chess and board-games.

There actually are multi-target attacks (Spin, Sweep) and of course spells, but they're generally available later in the game. And of course we tried to avoid the horde style combats although they are out there. We also tried to balance hordes by actually making "groups" more powerful, i.e. 3 creatures attacking one person get bonuses to hit and the lone defender gets penalized because, well, it's extremely hard to deal with multiple opponents. But with enough armor and what-not hordes do still just have to be waded through in the end, once you get the advanced attacks it's pretty quick to wade through anything that's not as powerful as you are.

A lower level multi-target attack might be possible, perhaps a generic one a-la the basic (strong, quick) attack options. A large swing which can hit the target and anything on either side of it perhaps? Similar to the advanced polearm sweep, but more limitted (3 tiles instead of the 6 sweep covers) and less effective? Hmmm, how would damage or hit chance be affected? And what would be the ap cost? I'll have to think about it...

-m

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Re: Multi-target options

Glad you like the system. I've never really understood why turn-based always involved using your entire turn or a character's entire turn before someone else, I suspect it's simply a relic of chess and board-games.

Well, it's an interesting twist on AP Turn Based.

A lower level multi-target attack might be possible, perhaps a generic one a-la the basic (strong, quick) attack options. A large swing which can hit the target and anything on either side of it perhaps? Similar to the advanced polearm sweep, but more limitted (3 tiles instead of the 6 sweep covers) and less effective? Hmmm, how would damage or hit chance be affected? And what would be the ap cost? I'll have to think about it...

Well, you really only need multitarget spells at higher levels, to cancel out the tedious encounters with things like 10 hoppers. Hoppers are no threat to moderate ability characters, so you need multitarget or area of effect attacks to wipe them out as quickly as possible.

Hey, on the subject of combat, how does dual wield attacking work?

Is it:

• (DamageRoll1 - AbsorbtionRoll1) + (Damage Roll2 - Absorbtion Roll2)
  
  or
  
• Damage Roll1 + Damage Roll2) - Absorbtion Roll

The reason I'm asking is because of things like dual wielding daggers, which typically do no damage at all against a decent armored person. A Long Dagger does 3-6 damage, which anything with a full set of leather should be able to absorb. However, if you combined the damage for a dual wield attack with daggers, then did the absorbtion roll subtraction, that would give daggers a chance to be damaging.

Also, does unarmed do a "dual wield" thing? i.e. two fisted striking based on skill level?

 

[thathmew]

Hey, on the subject of combat, how does dual wield attacking work?

it's a completely seperate attack after the first attack or indeed:

AttackRoll1(DamageRoll1 - AbsorbtionRoll1) + AttackRoll2(Damage Roll2 - Absorbtion Roll2)

This was a tough one to balance given the three possibilities of 1-handed weapon and shield, 2-handed weapon, or 2 weapons. Generally the goal was to add about 1/3 to 1/2 to the total damage over time with the second weapon. Skill plays a huge role in dual wield, both skill with the primary weapon type and skill with the secondary weapon type. You also have to take into account criticals with the secondary weapon, because they ignore armor. I find that dual wielding feels balanced against a two-handed weapon or weapon/shield. Long daggers have a solid chance (particularly if you're strong) at doing some damage until you get to armors better than chainmail at which point it takes a good hit or a critical, but with enough skill it's often worth it just for that chance.

With higher skill levels you can also dual-wield larger weapons, although some are just too big to be effective.

Important note about armor is that it's not cumulative, but location based. Hits generally occur on the chest area, followed by legs, followed by various extremities. So a complete set of studded leather should only ever absorb 0-3 points of damage per hit, this is modified somewhat by the armor skill so a higher skill means a greater likelyhood of more absorption.

-mat

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

This was a tough one to balance given the three possibilities of 1-handed weapon and shield, 2-handed weapon, or 2 weapons. Generally the goal was to add about 1/3 to 1/2 to the total damage over time with the second weapon.

Ahh.. Basically, the way I've always considered a good system of balancing this would be to look at it like this:

One hand weapon + shield: Low Attack, High Defense
Dual wield: Medium Attack, Medium Defense
Two Handed Weapon: High Attack, Low Defense

After all, with the concept of parrying, dual wielding would still have a moderate defensive value since you have two weapons with which to parry. You can also still parry with a two handed weapon, but it should be more difficult.

Skill plays a huge role in dual wield, both skill with the primary weapon type and skill with the secondary weapon type. You also have to take into account criticals with the secondary weapon, because they ignore armor. I find that dual wielding feels balanced against a two-handed weapon or weapon/shield. Long daggers have a solid chance (particularly if you're strong) at doing some damage until you get to armors better than chainmail at which point it takes a good hit or a critical, but with enough skill it's often worth it just for that chance.

Well, the problem with that is that most people who use daggers probably aren't the strongest people, like Acolytes. I'd kind of like to try an Acolyte as a dagger fighter/mage type guy. However, the problem is actually getting the Acolyte to survive close combat, if you know what I mean. :D

He starts with a 10 Dagger skill, which means he can dual wield from the beginning, but even with two long daggers, his attacks are nearly always absorbed by just about anything he strikes.

With higher skill levels you can also dual-wield larger weapons, although some are just too big to be effective.

Are long daggers the best, non-magic daggers? They're the best I've seen so far.

Important note about armor is that it's not cumulative, but location based. Hits generally occur on the chest area, followed by legs, followed by various extremities. So a complete set of studded leather should only ever absorb 0-3 points of damage per hit, this is modified somewhat by the armor skill so a higher skill means a greater likelyhood of more absorption.

Ooooer! That's odd then, because the long dagger is 3-6, and I get absorbs all the time from thugs and lower order humans.

Do weapons have critical chances based on the item itself? I.e. a long sword might have a critical modifier of +15%?

 

[CP]

[quote="Saint_Proverbius]Are long daggers the best, non-magic daggers? They're the best I've seen so far.[/quote]


There are a few non-magic/non-unique daggers that are better than long daggers.


CP
Designer, Zero Sum

 

[thathmew]

One hand weapon + shield: Low Attack, High Defense
Dual wield: Medium Attack, Medium Defense
Two Handed Weapon: High Attack, Low Defense

yes, that's pretty much how it works, the difficult is in balancing what those actually mean (high defense?) and making sure they're approximately of equal values, i.e. High Attack has to balance the low Defense and vice-versa. <shrug>

He starts with a 10 Dagger skill, which means he can dual wield from the beginning, but even with two long daggers, his attacks are nearly always absorbed by just about anything he strikes.

That's doesn't sound right to me, I'll look into the code and see if something strange is going on, hopefully it is a bug and I'll fix it if so.

I'm just about done with the patch, so if there is something odd or broken I should be able to get it in there.

Is the Acolyte extremely weak? You do get penalized for low strength., although it should be enough to eliminate the damage.

-mat

 

[thathmew]

Dagger Attacks

One other thing to note is that at skill level twenty dagger attacks get more rapid (1 ap less) so you can usually get one more off per round, that one ap is significant, even if it's just used for defence, each ap applied to defense should make a real difference. The ideal dagger fighter has a high speed and dex and relies on skills and criticals more than strength, although you will notice the difference of a couple points of strength. Generally because it can be used more per round it will also tend to improve faster than most other combat skills, and too makes a significant difference.

But all that being said after some examining, I think I am going to up slightly the chance to hit and damage from secondary attacks, it's a little more based on the weapon used and skill levels now, basically the lower the required skill to be wielded in the off-hand the more effective the weapon will be as a secondary weapon.

-mat

 

[HanoverF]

I'm curious as to why enemies get to move and attack in the same turn, aside from being a huge benefit in ambushes, it just slows down combat as I have to make everyone wait for them to come to me.

Also there seems to be a bug with Point Blank shots with bows not using arrows.

I was also wondering if it would be possible for a 'Set Up Ambush' option when you hear enemies approaching.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm curious as to why enemies get to move and attack in the same turn, aside from being a huge benefit in ambushes, it just slows down combat as I have to make everyone wait for them to come to me.

The player's party members can move/attack in the same turn as well. We tried to make sure enemies didn't attack from too far away so that waiting wouldn't be a chore. But in certain cases it's kinda unavoidable. It never really bothered me because I usually have characters that use missile and melee weapons. I also usually have magic users that can attack and/or immobilize enemies from afar.

Also there seems to be a bug with Point Blank shots with bows not using arrows.

Just to make sure I'm understanding you clearly: when players attack with missile weapons at point blank, arrows aren't subtracted from the player's inventory?

I was also wondering if it would be possible for a 'Set Up Ambush' option when you hear enemies approaching.

Sure this would be possible. We can still add to random events. If anyone has any suggestions with regard to random events, feel free to post.

CP
Designer, Zero Sum

 

[HanoverF]

The player's party members can move/attack in the same turn as well.

Maybe turn isn't the right term to use. Basically what I'm refering to is if my fighter is a space away from an enemy he has to move up the space and then wait until he has initiative again to attack, an enemy can move up the space AND attack before loosing initative. If PCs do have this ability I have no clue how to do it.

Just to make sure I'm understanding you clearly: when players attack with missile weapons at point blank, arrows aren't subtracted from the player's inventory?

Correct

 

[thathmew]

Ah, yes, you are correct, enemies can right now do a combined "approach-and-attack" while the player must take two-seperate actions.
This a bug, as is the not using arrows, I'm working on the code so that enemies interfere with attacks if they're one tile away from players or vice-versa.
On your other bug, H, the help text is fixed for the 1.2 version now, the repaired version was mistakenly not included in the 1.1 patch The 1.2 should be out around mid next week.

cheers,
-m

 

[Chadeo]

I have noticed that you can do an approach and attack still.

It happens because, if after moving, you still have more total AP's than anyone else in combat, you get to go again.

The advantage of a high speed are great, not the least of which is the ability to walk up, hit someone, and run away. Its hard to do, but it can be done.

One thing that I have noticed about combat though is that I either destroy all my enemies without breaking a sweat, or I get destroyed myself. In fact I have had to "win" many battles with just my high speed dagger guy doing hit and run attacks for 1-2 damage each round. Takes forever but he can take out most things this way.