Project Direction and Writing in RPGs - Do RPGs actually benefit from having more than one writer?

[Roguey]

Why is it a big deal that Boyarsky sent Sparks to watch Brazil? Project lead asked writers to watch it, so what?

It demonstrates that Boyarsky isn't phoning in his direction of the writing, unlike phone-it-in Josh.

 

[Quillon]

Why is it a big deal that Boyarsky sent Sparks to watch Brazil? Project lead asked writers to watch it, so what?

It demonstrates that Boyarsky isn't phoning in his direction of the writing, unlike phone-it-in Josh.

Wasn't he a control freak, defining everything he can then spending certain amount of his time asking the team what they are doing by their office doors?

 

[Roguey]

Wasn't he a control freak, defining everything he can then spending certain amount of his time asking the team what they are doing by their office doors?

Not at all. He became such an unreachable wraith that Patel ended up becoming the de facto writing lead since everyone started coming to her for direction.

 

[Ismaul]

Why is it a big deal that Boyarsky sent Sparks to watch Brazil? Project lead asked writers to watch it, so what?

It demonstrates that Boyarsky isn't phoning in his direction of the writing, unlike phone-it-in Josh.

Wasn't Josh not the narrative lead on PoE? He clearly wasn't the lead on the first game, that was Eric. You mean Deadfire? Why would his role change for the second? If he had narrative oversight he most likely focussed on big picture stuff, on the plot and setting, like on the first, not on writing styles and micromanaging writers.

 

[Roguey]

Wasn't Josh not the narrative lead on PoE? He clearly wasn't the lead on the first game, that was Eric. You mean Deadfire? Why would his role change for the second? If he had narrative oversight he most likely focussed on big picture stuff, on the plot and setting, like on the first, not on writing styles and micromanaging writers.

Regardless of who's narrative lead, the project director gets final say. Fenstermaker left Deadfire after setting up the plot, and Josh took it upon himself to become narrative lead against the recommendation of Avellone and Adler.

 

[Ismaul]

Regardless of who's narrative lead, the project director gets final say.

Sure but a project director shouldn't also just micromanage everything, he should delegate and trust his leads.

Fenstermaker left Deadfire after setting up the plot, and Josh took it upon himself to become narrative lead against the recommendation of Avellone and Adler.

Got a quote on that? Maybe he wanted to retain creative control on his baby but didn't trust anyone with the job, so he led at first but then saw Patel doing an ok job of it so let her do the grunt work? She's listed as co-lead, after all.

Admittedly I'm not you with that large updated .txt, but you've been very butthurt about Josh since you ended your soul-bond with him.

 

[Roguey]

Got a quote on that? Maybe he wanted to retain creative control on his baby but didn't trust anyone with the job, so he led at first but then saw Patel doing an ok job of it so let her do the grunt work? She's listed as co-lead, after all.

First the "Josh shouldn't write" post https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/josh-sawyer-q-a-thread.112946/page-30#post-5797978

The rest is from Beneath a Starless Sky, the big Obsidian/Infinity Engine book.

Fenstermaker and Carrie Patel developed several treatments of the game’s story. In one, a magical apocalypse laid waste to a society. That germ of an idea morphed into the game’s inciting event.

“Eric and I worked over the months of preproduction to flesh out specific story beats,” Patel said, “how the player encounters factions, how the player encounters Eothas, how we keep this off-screen antagonist—or is he not an antagonist?—present in the player's story, but also tie in things the player is doing to the factions of Deadfire and things that are happening locally.”

By late 2016, Fenstermaker and Patel—with plenty of input from Sawyer—had outlined Deadfire’s major story beats. Then Fenstermaker, a new father, resigned. His parting was amicable. He had realized dreams by working at Obsidian for so many years. Now, he wanted to raise his child.

“White March benefited from many such lessons about writing style, lore distribution, design and writing process, collaboration, et cetera. I was excited to see what we could do with a full-sized game after all that. And then of course I totally bailed on my team. Sorry, dudes,” Fenstermaker said. “By the time I handed off my duties to Josh, I think we'd laid out the places you'd visit, the basic sequence of events, and the role the major factions would play. Call it a first draft. It had holes in it, and a lot of the details had yet to be added or continued to evolve afterward.”

When Eric Fenstermaker and Chris Avellone left Obsidian, Carrie Patel became the only narrative designer who had worked on every installment of Pillars of Eternity: the base game, the two-part White March expansion set, and Deadfire.

“I had a lot of institutional knowledge and a greater awareness of how our pipelines worked, of the Pillars tone and flavor, and what our vast lore included,” she said. “Also, because all of the other leads were incredibly busy, I was often a much easier person to approach about a lot of those questions. Writers and people from other disciplines who wanted to know something about Pillars lore or how we did things, like using our tools, would oftentimes come to me with those questions.”

Already spinning several plates as Deadfire’s game director, Sawyer took on the role of lead narrative designer. Someone had needed to fill the void left by Fenstermaker. He also wanted an opportunity to take a hand in the game’s story and characters.

Patel quickly fell into step with Sawyer, collaborating with him as she had with Fenstermaker. “I find that Josh is very reasonable and willing to hear things out, and then take those things into consideration,” she said. “For Pillars II, whenever there was a question about a big creative direction or decision that needed to be made, I'd pass it to him and say, ‘Where do you want to head on this?’ When it was something that was kind of established or understood, or if it needed more definition or something we already had an internal answer on, I'd usually follow up on it on my own.”

Sawyer gave Patel and the other narrative designers the credit for carrying the heaviest loads. He had to be more concerned with the ten-thousand-feet view out of necessity: story structure, making sure the story gave players freedom to confront moral dilemmas and respond to them in their own way, and providing opportunities for players to flex their tactical-combat muscles. “I wrote Pallegina, which is the companion I wrote in Pillars I,” said Sawyer. “I wrote Eothas, who is the main, driving force behind the plot in Deadfire. And I wrote a handful of side characters.”

In January 2018, a few months before Deadfire was due to launch, Sawyer asked Patel to meet with him in his office. He had been impressed with the creative work and responsibilities she had undertaken since joining Obsidian, especially on Deadfire. He asked if he could formally recognize her as co-lead narrative designer, a promotion that would lead to other opportunities following the completion of Pillars of Eternity II. Patel accepted.

 

[Ismaul]

Roguey, that's all good and well, but I don't see how that means "Josh phoned it in" like you pretend.

In the quotes you've given, it is specifically said that when Fenstermaker left he "handed off his duties to Josh" because of his role as project director. Josh wasn't supposed to be narrative lead, but he "needed to fill the void left by Fenstermaker". And then what did Josh do? He delegated "the heaviest loads" to the person who had the most experience with the work, Patel, and "formally recognized her as co-lead narrative designer".

Plus, the Brandon Adler feedback you refer to just says that being project director is already an demanding enough job so Josh shouldn't also be narrative lead. Josh delegating to Patel therefore seems precisely to take that feedback into account, and is a pretty rational and responsible decision.

Brandon Adler did weigh in on production decisions, but he wasn't always listened to. For example, he told me that in all future titles, Josh should not do any companion design or writing for a long list of reasons (which made sense - the biggest point was the time it consumed vs. overseeing the project as Project Director).

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

It demonstrates that Boyarsky isn't phoning in his direction of the writing, unlike phone-it-in Josh.

It demonstrates that he is another pretentious idiot in the gaming industry who thinks that good writing in cRPGs results from emulating other mediums. Should have told those writers to play some fucking classic cRPG.

Patel ended up becoming the de facto writing lead since everyone started coming to her for direction.

Patel the writing lead

Patel

Patel

 

[Sailor Woedica]

It demonstrates that he is another pretentious idiot in the gaming industry who thinks that good writing in cRPGs results from emulating other mediums. Should have told those writers to play some fucking classic cRPG.

I'm sure most of them have played New Vegas

 

[Roguey]

In the quotes you've given, it is specifically said that when Fenstermaker left he "handed off his duties to Josh" because of his role as project director. Josh wasn't supposed to be narrative lead, but he "needed to fill the void left by Fenstermaker". And then what did Josh do? He delegated "the heaviest loads" to the person who had the most experience with the work, Patel, and "formally recognized her as co-lead narrative designer".

Plus, the Brandon Adler feedback you refer to just says that being project director is already an demanding enough job so Josh shouldn't also be narrative lead. Josh delegating to Patel therefore seems precisely to take that feedback into account, and is a pretty rational and responsible decision.

Odd then that she wasn't officially given the title until months away from release.

Regardless, as Avellone put it,

Obsidian can keep doing whatever it is they do best. I wasn't sure what that was before my departure. I'm still not sure, beyond "I think it's a BG thing"... but there's often no mention of BioWare and their design principles when this is said.

which is a phone-it-in move for an alleged successor to Bioware games.

I'd feel a lot better were it magna cum laude.

Summa is higher.

It demonstrates that he is another pretentious idiot in the gaming industry who thinks that good writing in cRPGs results from emulating other mediums. Should have told those writers to play some fucking classic cRPG.

There wouldn't be any narratives in games if no one took inspiration from sources other than games.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

There wouldn't be any narratives in games if no one took inspiration from sources other than games.

If that were true, cRPG developers wouldn’t be able to draw inspiration from the world around them. But they can, so it’s false.

Cineasts know that they can’t tell a story like a novelist. In other to know to improve their craft, they immerse themselves in their own medium.

Novelists are aware they can’t tell a story like a cineast. In other to excel in their craft they learn everything they can from their own medium.

Narrative designers are unique in their belief that they can make compelling fictional worlds without knowing the basics of their own medium, which suggests an arrogant dismissive attitude towards their own medium.

 

[Strange Fellow]

You just love to take Codex maxims like "writers should know their medium" and wrangle them into the mud, don't you? Game writers only taking inspiration from other games is an excellent way to make sure the genre becomes increasingly insular and watered down until there's nothing left but pallid retreads. The notion that artists aren't inspired by other media is laughably reductionist, not to mention wrong.

 

[Ismaul]

Odd then that she wasn't officially given the title until months away from release.

Would you give a promotion to someone you weren't sure could do the job, just because there's suddenly a spot to fill? She proved herself in time and then got the promotion, organically. Plus, maybe Josh wasn't the guy directly calling the promotions, y'know, and had to say justify it to HR / the owners.

Regardless, as Avellone put it,

Obsidian can keep doing whatever it is they do best. I wasn't sure what that was before my departure. I'm still not sure, beyond "I think it's a BG thing"... but there's often no mention of BioWare and their design principles when this is said.

which is a phone-it-in move for an alleged successor to Bioware games.

Alleged successor to Bioware games? You and MCA forgot other IE games were listed in the Kickstarter, Black Isle games, including his own fucking PST. It was never going to be a 1:1 copy of BG. I wouldn't have backed it if it was.

And how does any of that pertain to your claim that Josh phoned in his direction of the writing? Stop moving the goalpost.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

You just love to take Codex maxims like "writers should know their medium" and wrangle them into the mud, don't you? Game writers only taking inspiration from other games is an excellent way to make sure the genre becomes increasingly insular and watered down until there's nothing left but pallid retreads. The notion that artists aren't inspired by other media is laughably reductionist, not to mention wrong.

First, you assume that cRPG writing is the dialogue/story part. This is false. cRPG writing involves a nuanced understanding of how to implement quests, reactivity, game world, exploration, itemization, etc., compelling. The cRPG writer as a profession is a idiotic thing. A good cRPG writer is a good developer who knows his craft.

Second, your assumption that by knowing other cRPGs the writing will become worse shows that you also have a disdain for your own medium. Any cRPG developer worth of his salt should play and replay, for example, the likes of Darklands to have a proper understanding of world building. If you don’t see how this is important is because you are comparing cRPGs with novels and assuming that cRPG writing is the dialogue/story part.

One of the main reasons why the cRPG industry is in decline is because the medium is filled with pretentious retards like you, who want to discuss minutiae of dialogues and lore. cRPGs don’t need to become art because they already are. By trying to emulate novels and films developers will only achieve a confused mismatch of elements. Nothing good can come out of this.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Second, your assumption that by knowing other cRPGs the writing will become worse shows that you also have a disdain for your own medium.

I never said this. Let me try to be painfully clear. You're saying that CRPG writers being inspired by books and movies is not only of no benefit, but actually a bad thing. That is complete bollocks. For fuck's sake, where do you think D&D came from, if not Tolkien? What would Fallout have been without Mad Max? Magic systems without Jack Vance? There are countless examples. Please don't misconstrue my arguments again.
Another point:

One of the main reasons why the cRPG industry is in decline is because the medium is filled with pretentious retards like you, who want to discuss minutiae of dialogues and lore.

Is it, though? Apart from Obsidian's post-Pillars efforts and Tides of Numenera, what other CRPGs have suffered from this? That's a grand total of four games. I am not impressed by your generalisations.

 

[Roguey]

Plus, maybe Josh wasn't the guy directly calling the promotions, y'know, and had to say justify it to HR / the owners.

Sure, that's true.

Alleged successor to Bioware games? You and MCA forgot other IE games were listed in the Kickstarter, Black Isle games, including his own fucking PST. It was never going to be a 1:1 copy of BG. I wouldn't have backed it if it was.

Avellone claims there's nothing of Torment in the final product, which seems to make him irate. Additionally, Patel only ever bothered to play Torment (and didn't like it; when asked about her favorite Infinity Engine game, she chose to interpret that more broadly and said Shadowrun Hong Kong).

When they asked about her history with roleplaying games, Patel admitted she lacked experience in the types of RPGs that were influencing Pillars of Eternity, but made up for it with her knowledge of writing other types of stories as well as playing other types of story-driven games. She got up to speed on the classics before starting at Obsidian a couple of weeks later. “I did play Planescape: Torment once I got to Obsidian, in part because I knew that was such a big touchstone for us as a company and as the Pillars team, and because it was such a groundbreaking game in terms of narrative design and storytelling in games, but I had not played Baldur’s Gate or Icewind Dale. We've always been looking for a balance in the Pillars games between hearkening back to that flavor and style, and updating it and creating our own world and story.”

And how does any of that pertain to your claim that Josh phoned in his direction of the writing? Stop moving the goalpost.

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/173771124776/before-deadfires-release-you-said-that-every

Before Deadfire's release, you said that every companion's romantic interests and sexuality would be decided individually as these preferences are part of character definition. What made you change your mind to make all romanceable companions (as it seems so far) bisexual or "playersexual" instead of making them have set sexualities?

I didn’t change my mind. The companions’ sexual preferences were decided by individual writers for their individual characters. If you want to know why a writer developed their companion in a certain way, that’s a question for them.

A stronger director would ask the question "Is this appropriate for the setting?" Additionally, a stronger director would insist on having all designers play and analyze the Infinity Engine games. Josh did not.

Yes, which probably means she went crazy during education.

I didn't, but I suppose being touched in the head was already baked in.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

I never said this. Let me try to be painfully clear. You're saying that CRPG writers being inspired by books and movies is not only of no benefit, but actually a bad thing. That is complete bollocks.

That’s a caricature of what I said. Let me be more clear. It’s one thing to be a well read developer. It’s another to force narrative designers to watch a movie in order to be inspired in their next work. Big difference. If developers are talking about the narrative of a cRPG as a priority they are phonies. It’s simply as that. Narrative designer as a profession is a misguided notion, as it is the perception that cRPG developers can be competent when they don’t understand combat systems, level design or character creation. This absurd compartmentalisation of game design needs to end. You can’t have a decent cRPG when you are paying a team of teenagers who never played a engrossing cRPG in their lives to flesh out the ‘writing part’. This is a ludicrous idea.

Is it, though? Apart from Obsidian's post-Pillars efforts and Tides of Numenera, what other CRPGs have suffered from this? That's a grand total of four games. I am not impressed by your generalisations

It’s the other way around. Which cRPG studio doesn’t acknowledge cRPG writer as a profession? I’m all ears.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Storyfags are the worst.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

When they asked about her history with roleplaying games, Patel admitted she lacked experience in the types of RPGs that were influencing Pillars of Eternity, but made up for it with her knowledge of writing other types of stories as well as playing other types of story-driven games.

See? That’s the type of misconception I’m talking about. "She made up for it with more writing stuff", as if were just a matter of putting words in it and telling a story. She doesn’t have a clue what makes a cRPG tick.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Avellone claims there's nothing of Torment in the final product, which seems to make him irate. Additionally, Patel only ever bothered to play Torment (and didn't like it; when asked about her favorite Infinity Engine game, she chose to interpret that more broadly and said Shadowrun Hong Kong).

I may be wrong, but the vibe I got from these feminazo dikes hired by Obsidian is that they think they have no limits. They are the classic “teenagers who know it all” types. I don’t think they have any resemblance of respect or admiration for Avellone, Tim Cain or Josh. How could they? They never played cRPGs in their lives. I remember Patel making jokes about Obsidian developers with pictures. She called Avellone a cry baby. I also suspect that she wanted to make a splash and show to these outdated white males how to make a compelling cRPG with her ‘talent’. You know, the typical arrogance of the youth accompanied by some alpha female complex mumbo jambo. In her head she is the new generation of cRPG developers who will improve the genre. Wouldn’t be surprised if the joke against Avellone on twitter (‘Let the force be with you’ with a red nose) was her doing. In short: she has her head filled with derivative nonsense, has 99% hubris and 1% talent.

 

[Prime Junta]

A stronger director would ask the question "Is this appropriate for the setting?" Additionally, a stronger director would insist on having all designers play and analyze the Infinity Engine games. Josh did not.

I always get the feeling with Josh that he’s better suited to designer and producer roles than director. FONV worked out so great because the creative team already knew what the franchise, setting, and game was all about. If they don’t it seems to me that Josh isn’t really able to tell them.

A great director is something of a visionary. As much as I like him, Josh doesn’t strike me as one.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

A great director is something of a visionary. As much as I like him, Josh doesn’t strike me as one.

Pretentious nonsense!

 

[FeelTheRads]

games were listed in the Kickstarter

And it was like neither of them.

she chose to interpret that more broadly and said Shadowrun Hong Kong).

Obsidian being Obsidian... that's all there is to say here.

 

[Fairfax]

For fuck's sake, where do you think D&D came from, if not Tolkien?

Tolkien wasn't one of the main influences: