Prototyping a health / stamina system

[Zanzoken]

I want to make an action RPG where you control a single character. Biggest inspiration is Gothic, with some light survival mechanics a la Zelda Breath of the Wild.

The theme will be kind of similar to ELEX where you have sci-fi technology but also magic. One feature I wanted to include is that humans in this world have the ability to use an "Aura" technique, which is essentially a magic barrier that protects their body from harm. This allows people to survive sword slashes, gunshots, explosions, etc that would normally maim or kill them.

The Aura is finite, obviously, and depletes when a person takes damage. When someone's Aura is fully depleted, they are vulnerable to injury just like a person would be in real life.

So mechanically, this isn't too different from a standard Health meter. But the key is, just because you hit zero doesn't mean you're dead... it just means the next hit(s) you take will cause injury.

I put together a simple diagram to summarize.

Spoiler

To add another wrinkle, I like the idea of making it so that your attacks pull energy from the Aura. Stronger abilities would require more Aura energy to cast, creating a trade-off between offense and defense. Bigger and/or more frequent attacks drain more Aura, putting the character at risk for counter-attack. So you have to think a bit more carefully before uncorking your best move or spamming abilities over and over.

The question I have is... does this sound fun, or is it a solution searching for a problem? 99% of games just use a simple Health meter, and maybe a Stamina meter to track fatigue. I like what I've made here for a number of other reasons that I can go into, but I'm not sure if it's worth trifling with or wouldn't be too confusing / annoying for players.

Thoughts?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I think Betrayal at Krondor was the same concept? You fight and cast from stamina which takes first damage, which also wears you down. And low health meant being hell of a lot less effective in combat.

 

[Zanzoken]

A couple of additional thoughts to add more context.

The model I have in my head for combat encounters is that the Aura meter would refill after each fight, but as Aura is expended (either through attacking or taking damage) the maximum Aura value slowly shrinks. This models the player getting progressively more fatigued, reducing their capabilities. Consumables like food and stimulants can help alleviate the attrition in the short term, but only sleep can restore the Aura meter back to its true maximum.

On the other hand, injuries and lost Health do not expire after combat and will not regenerate on their own. If injuries are left untreated, they will get worse, leading to more severe status effects such as infection, illness, and possibly even death. Proper medical treatment and rest are required in order to heal injuries and restore Health to maximum. Magical healing does exist, however in this world it is very difficult and arduous work, so people still rely heavily on conventional medicine.

I think these mechanics could complement the survival theme and force players to be more thoughtful in how they approach the world.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

How would it affect monsters and human enemies though?

 

[Conan]

How would it affect monsters and human enemies though?

You have hit upon the core issue.

What do you really want from a combat system?

A dangerous, yet winnable and tense encounter.

This is obtained from the real chance of becoming severely injured and the high risk of this taking place due to *bad* decisions. This means that a persistent effect should result due to tactical errors. However, enemies are usually one encounter creatures and as result do not care about the persistence part. They can fight like kamikaze expending all their potential into the fight, while the PCs can't afford to do that. One way to offset that is by making the injuries symmetric for both parties. The enemies must also decline in effectiveness due to injuries. Moreover, they need a morale meter that tracks their willingness to continue fighting to avoid draining the resources of the party. Couple the morale to their HP/Injuries and you have a working system.


What do you want from the aftermath?
Strategic decision-making that allows you to think hard about the problem at hand and feel like a winner when you hit upon the right strategy. If you are injured you have to expend resources to get well; time, money and rare medication,

 

[Zanzoken]

How would it affect monsters and human enemies though?

Good question. Human enemies would definitely be beholden to Aura mechanics just like the player. One thing I want to steal from Gothic is the concept of duels, like you can fight with the mercenaries in Gothic II. This world would have a strong dueling culture, where duels are often used to solve disputes in a very frontier justice sort of way. Duels are legally sanctioned and governed by the following laws.

1) The winner is the one who draws first blood, i.e. breaking the opponent's Aura and dealing them an injury. Duels to the death are illegal (but of course that doesn't mean they never happen).
2) When a person's Aura is broken, it is customary to allow them the chance to yield. To yield in this fashion is considered dishonorable, particularly if the yielding party is the one who issued the challenge. But it allows a duelist to escape the duel unscathed.

As far as monsters, I would want the game to have both animals and mechanical enemies, like drones and robots. My initial thoughts are that mechanical enemies would have artificial energy shields that function similarly to a human's Aura, like extra HP.

Most animals would not be that difficult to kill for an experienced adventurer, though they often utilize group tactics to try to overwhelm their prey. But there is one apex predator in the world -- think Shadowbeast -- that is extremely dangerous and difficult to kill. There are groups of hunters in the world who hunt these predators as a profession... it's lucrative but with a short shelf life, as people are often killed. Only a couple of humans ever have fought one of these beasts 1-v-1 and survived, and they became famous as a result.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Good question. Human enemies would definitely be beholden to Aura mechanics just like the player. One thing I want to steal from Gothic is the concept of duels, like you can fight with the mercenaries in Gothic II. This world would have a strong dueling culture, where duels are often used to solve disputes in a very frontier justice sort of way. Duels are legally sanctioned and governed by the following laws.

I also note that it means if somebody turns tail from a fight, you'd need to pursue them and finish them off before they get a chance to recuperate, at least where the enmity is to the death, so to speak.

 

[gaussgunner]

It'll work fine. It's just like your standard space shooter (Star Control etc) with Hull damage and Shields. It's better than HP+stamina.

One thing I haven't seen done well is a desperation bonus when you're low on HP. It could give players some motivation to fight harder when they'd otherwise say "fuck, I'm fucked... reload". Many games have perks like that but they're useless or underpowered. It might be fun as a well balanced default mechanic.

 

[Zanzoken]

Good question. Human enemies would definitely be beholden to Aura mechanics just like the player. One thing I want to steal from Gothic is the concept of duels, like you can fight with the mercenaries in Gothic II. This world would have a strong dueling culture, where duels are often used to solve disputes in a very frontier justice sort of way. Duels are legally sanctioned and governed by the following laws.

I also note that it means if somebody turns tail from a fight, you'd need to pursue them and finish them off before they get a chance to recuperate, at least where the enmity is to the death, so to speak.

True. I think the law would specify that the duel is fought in a limited area (though still big enough that a person who relies on mobility / ranged attack isn't at a major disadvantage). So if someone fled from the fight, they would be disqualified, losing the duel and humiliating themselves in the process.

It might be the case that the town has an official dueling ring / small stadium where the duels are held. Promoters sell tickets, people are allowed to gamble, that sort of thing. The setting is that of a planet that is in the early stages of colonization, so it's a rough crowd and there's little to do in terms of entertainment.

 

[Zanzoken]

What do you really want from a combat system?

A dangerous, yet winnable and tense encounter.

This is obtained from the real chance of becoming severely injured and the high risk of this taking place due to *bad* decisions. This means that a persistent effect should result due to tactical errors. However, enemies are usually one encounter creatures and as result do not care about the persistence part. They can fight like kamikaze expending all their potential into the fight, while the PCs can't afford to do that. One way to offset that is by making the injuries symmetric for both parties. The enemies must also decline in effectiveness due to injuries. Moreover, they need a morale meter that tracks their willingness to continue fighting to avoid draining the resources of the party. Couple the morale to their HP/Injuries and you have a working system.


What do you want from the aftermath?
Strategic decision-making that allows you to think hard about the problem at hand and feel like a winner when you hit upon the right strategy. If you are injured you have to expend resources to get well; time, money and rare medication,

One goal for the enemy AI would be to give them a sense of self-preservation. Another thing I like about Gothic is that animals don't attack on sight... they roar and flex on you to try to scare you away, and only if you persist in getting too close will they attack.

In a broader sense, the ultra-aggression of animals that you commonly see in RPGs has often struck me as nonsensical. I've seen enough nature documentaries to observe that even the most vicious meat-eating predators are very cautious in how they hunt and approach prey. They look for weaker targets in the herd like babies, the elderly, or prey that's already injured. They use stealth and set ambushes. They hunt in packs to rely on strength in numbers. And if a situation turns against them, they don't hesitate to quit the field to save their own skin.

My hope would be that I could devise an AI that could model this somewhat realistically, for more believable animal behavior.

As for humans, I think there should be some sort of "surrender" mechanic where a human enemy who is severely wounded will try to stop the fight and plead for their life. It doesn't make sense for every human you fight to be a suicidal maniac.

 

[luj1]

Mate this sounds like Endurance from PoE

please don't

 

[Zanzoken]

Mate this sounds like Endurance from PoE

please don't

It has been a long time since I played PoE, but I remember Endurance being a short-term, per-encounter health meter, whereas Health itself was a longer-term meter that degraded slowly as characters took damage. It seems like the design goal there was to allow characters to be "knocked out" in an encounter without actually dying, while allowing them to accrue damage that will eventually require rest in order to heal.

I think what I am proposing is different. Unlike Health and Endurance in PoE, my attributes Health and Aura don't pull from the same resource pool. As long as Aura is above zero, you wouldn't take Health damage at all. And if Aura is fully depleted, you don't pass out or die... you'll just suffer Health damage if you continue to get hit.

The Hull / Shield spaceship example quoted above is a perfect analogy. As long as the Shield is up, you can hit it with whatever and the Hull won't be affected. But as soon as the Shield goes down, the Hull can be damaged and that's when the ship is in danger. Same thing here, just with a person.

 

[Krice]

If aura is always required (like you can't successfully fight without it) then it becomes the "main" hit points which players have to maintain. Even if you would manage without it players want it to be "on", because it prevents damage etc. like you said. Usually a concept like this is implemented as shield reducing the damage taken, while the shield also is taking damage. It makes more sense, because the way you have it is more like a double hit points with different kind of management for each. However it could work if you can manage both of them in some meaningful way. Let's say you dive deep into a dungeon and you run out of the shield almost at the end, without being able to restore it. You have to escape the dungeon all the way up, search for resources, go back etc. It can become tedious.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Let's say you dive deep into a dungeon and you run out of the shield almost at the end, without being able to restore it. You have to escape the dungeon all the way up, search for resources, go back etc. It can become tedious.

I assume it just means you need to take a breather. I don't think aura would be too hard to maintain.

Hell even Alpha Potatocol has a health/stamina mechanic not too far off from what Zanzoken envisions.

 

[Zanzoken]

Krice a couple of thoughts.

If aura is always required (like you can't successfully fight without it) then it becomes the "main" hit points which players have to maintain. Even if you would manage without it players want it to be "on", because it prevents damage etc. like you said.

The key is, the player will never go into an encounter with Aura at zero. Aura refills after each encounter, up to whatever its current maximum is. It does suffer attrition over time across encounters, but I would configure it so that there is a lower bound on how low it can drop.

For example, let's say a player character has 100 points of Aura when completely rested. And the burn rate on Aura is 1 point of attrition for every 20 points consumed. So the player starts at full rest, gets into a fight, and loses 60 points of Aura. That means they've suffered 3 points in long-term attrition, so the Aura pool now tops out at 97 points. But going into the next encounter, they'll have all 97 points available, because the meter refills.

This attrition process will continue until the player hits a predefined lower bound, for example, 30 points of Aura. It can't go any lower than that no matter how much more Aura is consumed. I would probably also put some pretty substantial status effects / debuffs at this lower bound, to gimp the player character even more... the idea is that characters who hit this threshold are severely exhausted, and not able to fight at their full capabilities.

Usually a concept like this is implemented as shield reducing the damage taken, while the shield also is taking damage. It makes more sense, because the way you have it is more like a double hit points with different kind of management for each. However it could work if you can manage both of them in some meaningful way. Let's say you dive deep into a dungeon and you run out of the shield almost at the end, without being able to restore it. You have to escape the dungeon all the way up, search for resources, go back etc. It can become tedious.

To be honest, I don't really like the idea of them pulling from the same resource pool. I think that actually adds to the complexity, and not in a good way.

For your dungeon example, as explained above, there wouldn't be a scenario where you'd go into the boss fight or whatever with zero Aura. The player character may be diminished, due to having taken a lot of damage / expended a lot of energy in prior encounters, or even injured if they took damage while their Aura was depleted. But I think that's a key feature of dungeons to begin with. A dungeon is supposed to test the player's ability to get through a series of encounters as efficiently as possible, so they can conserve energy / resources for the boss fight at the end. And players have to judge along the way whether they are fit enough to keep going, or if they're too weakened and need to retreat and try again later.

On a related note, I think you have to use save restrictions here, otherwise it undermines the entire point of a dungeon. I think I would do the save system as follows.

- In town or other civilized "safe" place: Save whenever you want
- Out in the open world: You have to make camp in order to save
- Inside of a dungeon: No saving allowed

So the player would essentially be forced to travel to the dungeon, make camp outside in order to save, then try to take down the dungeon in one fell swoop. I don't think it works any other way.

 

[Krice]

The key is, the player will never go into an encounter with Aura at zero.

This means the player has to maintain that resource which can become tedious, depending on how hard it is. Whatever the plan is, my experience tells you only realize how it works when you play the game. If you add some kind of feature it's not always a good thing, even if you think it would make the game more interesting etc.