Proving Calis right (and responding to DU)...

[AnalogKid]

I know this is a bit of a necroresponse, but all I did was get a night's sleep and you fuckers spammed the Time Machine thread into lockdown, so... uh ... revolution!

The simple reality is, when Saint left, we lost our authority. There's no-one here to be the Nazi dictator anymore

I don't think it's quite that simple. Definitely all this crap isn't about VD. It's about being overrun.
The Codex always had police: the vicious posters who would shred you and actually make you feel like a dumbfuck.

Those people who "fight back" are still there in conversations about RPGs where it matters (and where most of those dressing down conversations have taken place). In a thread about a high school massacre though? Who really looked at Spacemoose's post and thought he needed dressing down?

That's not the relevant question. The question is: why is there a thread about high school massacre at the RPG Codex?

The only issue with that is, take a look at all the people we've dumbfucked... Either way, they're still here and they still post stupid one-liners.

Precisely my point. Adding a tag isn't serving it's purpose, it's encouraging dumbfuckery because of the mental limitations and attention whoring of the "new breed".

If we hate these people so much, why did we even tolerate them in the first place? And is the Codex really going to be a better place if everyone who comes here and argues that Oblivion is a fun game gets banned? Because let's face it, they're the ones who say the really inane, stupid things.

Great question, and also exactly my point. Why do we tolerate them? Because banning was never the Codex way and we were overrun and unable to fight them off through posting. If the worst of the 'codex were people saying stupid things about RPGs, then a dumbfuck tag and laughing at them would be appropriate. When it's devolved into saying stupid things just to get your post count up or for god knows what other reason, it's time to show them the door. You seem to get it. You're not an "agree with me or get out" guy, that's clear from your posts, and I don't think most of the staff are that way either. What I'm saying is: "contribute to the RPG Codex or get out".

Whatever amount of useful RPG discussion will exist (and I agree there's a lot of fatigue about repeating old arguments), does anyone benefit from having to mine for interesting discussion among hordes of blatant bullshit? If it's a choice between 10 interesting posts a day at the Codex, or 1000 spam posts a day with 10 interesting ones hidden in there somewhere, the Codex should be "dead" and only have the 10 posts.

Now we just give people a 'dumbfuck' tag and they wear it with pride because all their cronies think it's cool.

Why do we care though? People do the same at SA. Try and fob their ass-head avatar as "I'm cool". If they think it's cool, good for them. For the rest of us, it serves its purpose.

1) It doesn't serve it's purpose because it's not given to highlight that someone's (repeatedly) a dumbfuck about RPGs. It's given in response to attention-whoring stupidity that should just be eliminated, not rewarded with special status.

2) Do you really want to compare the 'Codex to SA? Is that your vision for this site? I'll say it again... the Codex used to be better than that.

The Codex is too nice. We don't have enough RPG-centric posters who are highly caustic enough to hold back the hordes of the under-consoles. I don't think it's a question of the past vs. the present. I think it's a question of the small vs. the big. When things bloat, they suck. Period.

Here's the problem though, what would you like us to do about it?

I don't pretend to be an expert in fixing the codex, but here's a few ideas for staff to think about:

• - Stop worrying so much about the Codex dying or the traffic being less. Make it small and good and those who are here will be happy. Who gives a fuck if not many folks post here? To paraphrase BrotherNone, is size the Codex's raison d'etre?
  
  - Get rid of GD. Isolating it away from the main page is a very good 2nd choice. Posters that are here for GD shouldn't be here. Posters that are here for RPG discussion and would enjoy some GD on the side, can find it in the "isolated" GD forum.
  
  - DO things, don't talk about doing them, before during or after. Banning? Tagging? Ninja-editing? Retardoing? Just fucking do it and move on. If a discussion is necessary, do it amongst staff behind closed doors and don't give attention-whores more satisfaction.
  
  - Stick to your own words about the Codex not being a democracy. Get rid of the bullshit. It's not for me to decide who is or isn't such. It's for the staff. Set a 60% majority threashold or whatever, and have the staff decide who's balls to cut off. Not individual staff members. I'd say posters should be reviewed by staff every time they're up for a label upgrade. That way the first few posts are closely scrutinized, and if they are viewed by the "elite codex staff" as contributing in whatever way (yes, even lulz, if they're actually funny like Chefe used to be), then their leash gets longer and longer becuase they have more posts between each new label (and review) and can waste some posts getting into a stupid fucking pissing contest like we all sometimes do.

You said it yourself, with Saint went authority. Exert some fucking authority. The staff has the power, use it. The "anything goes" attitude of old Codex worked great when it was small and there was more signal than noise. I argue that it can't work anymore, not if the Codex is going to be even similar to what it used to be. It doesn't have to be "recreate the past", but make the Codex what the Staff want it to be and don't think for even one second about its "popularity".

 

[Nutcracker]

Stick to General RPG Discussion and News Comments if you dont want the LULZ. Geezus, it may as well be invisible now, you have to go looking.

Maybe you should make some new, insightful post on the best implementation of C&C and we can copy and paste our last 100 responses to the question.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

That's not the relevant question. The question is: why is there a thread about high school massacre at the RPG Codex?

... because we have a General Discussion forum. Despite what you might think, we talk about other stuff too and sorry, that's not going to change. Yeah, this is the RPGCodex but we're not a bunch of morons who only have hard-ons for RPGs. That's why, if you noticed, we've got Tycoon Codex and Tacticular Cancer all sharing the same forums. We need a General Discussion forum. We aren't going to limit discussion here to RPGs only. If that's what you want, by all means, limit your visit to the RPG forum only. It's not that ard to do. No really. Try it right now and see what happens.

... and if you get to post your reply, I get to post mine. I think you'll find it relevant.

For the record, I logged in and thought what had happened to the forums was hilarious. About 5 seconds later I'd started cleaning it up. Why? Because that's what I do. I mean, you've got to lighten up and take this sort of shit in your stride. If you let every little user get to you, you end up going nuts and banning everyone who looks at you the wrong way. As I said before, I've dealt with "these people" over at DAC. Every day I got complaints "remove DU's admin powers" and it was incessant. Thing is, you ignore it. You don't question your decision and ask for a poll and community feedback, you push on. You make witty replies to those threads because you know they're just jerking your chain and you move on. However, you need to be sure you have the full support of the other admin's BEFORE you act, otherwise anything you do ends up being over-turned and it makes you look bad as a moderator. People start to realise they can just jerk you around and believe me when I tell you these guys will take every opportunity they can to jerk you around.

I also really think there's been an over-reaction to some of the "lulz" that's going on. Sorry, but I just don't see the rampant excess. I've been looking through the threads in the RPG forum and I'm not seeing some sort of "take-over". I mean, is this a lulz crack? Does skyway get banned now because he hasn't responded with anything more than a wise-crack about orgasms and Microsoft? I'm doing a search through all his posts now. Hmmm... Seem to be a lot of one-liners. Sorry skyway, but your kind is not welcome here, you're banned! I mean, for fuck's sake people, lighten the fuck up. cutterjohn doesn't appear to be any better. I'm certainly not finding any long, well-articulated posts from him. The most he seems to be able to string together is 4 sentences about the Witcher. Mind you he's on topic but gee, I dunno... That one-liner he posted for the "lulz" I mean, that shit needs to be stopped! Sorry guys but GD was always about the lulz.

Under KC's current stance, Multi-Headed Dicks never would've gotten anywhere. In my opinion, stuff like that deserves to end up in Retardo Land but only after it's been allowed for a few pages. Otherwise, if you Retardo everything instantly, you just get a re-action and more threads that you need to Retardo and thus more work for you and more complaints. Sure, most of that list of Retardo'd threads is shit but who's it harming? Can't you guys use your brains and figure out that a thread titled "Who's your favourite Codex homosexual?" isn't something you want to read and leave it alone?

I also don't see any reason to unlock Retardo Land anytime soon. That would only encourage more of it which is clearly what we don't want. We want this type of stuff in moderation. That is, from time to time, it is funny to joke about multi-headed dicks inbetween serious discussion. As vrok pointed out, the Codex has been going down the toilet for years and yet we're still not there yet (and those who wish to state otherwise, the Codex has periodically had those type of "complaints" pop-up, ever since we were founded). Funny about that. If some of you morons can't get over yourselves or what others find funny, then stick to every forum other than GD.

now now, nutcracker, every one of those ~12000 has been a <s> steaming </s> shining <s> turd </s> pearl of wisdom

Guys Spacemoose deserves his own forum
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f284/ ... emoose.jpg

3. if we have this subforum, we'd have nothing to complain about

I have an excellent idea:
http://www.duckandcover.cx/
Bye, Spacemoose!

While I understand your point, we didn't ban Volourn for doing the same thing. I think around about page 15 of Retardo Land is filled with all his posts.

Just my 2 cents:

I think that VD is much better as a news poster, interviewer, RPG developer etc. etc. than as a moderator - precisely because he isn't the dictator he is often accused to be. VD often hasn't a lucky hand when dealing with people who make trouble. He is willing to discuss every little decision he makes and no real dictator would do that. Hence there are a lot of people who are challenging his authority and trying to fathom his patience - and when he loses his temper at some point they are happy to stir even more trouble up. (I blame it to bad education and you can hardly blame VD for that.)

I agree.

Either option tells me that my days as the Codex admin are over. The logic, as you can see, is very simple, and you can't really argue with it. Now, exclusively for my amusement, I'd like to add the last quote here:

"At this stage, there's still a very real possibility that VD will return with full admin powers and we'll do things his way. "

DU, old boy, if after all that you said you still consider giving me full admin powahs, then you are as erratic as I'm. Maybe even more.

The problem I have with you is that this isn't the first time you've acted unilaterally for what was seen as a non-issue and I am sorry but I have gotten tired of it. Spacemoose was originally warned over something which should never have been an issue. We don't ban people because, shock, horror, they made a tasteless remark about a high-school massacre. Whatever happened to just calling someone a moron if you disagreed with them? But to log-on and find the forums defaced that I then have to clean up and then to discover that what started this was a COMPLETE non-issue, just rubs me up the wrong way. Sure, we'd all like to have these discussions in the staff forums and not let them get out here but hey, this thread was on page 8 before I replied. The problem I have is simply that you don't let these things stay in the Staff forums before you act. You don't give anyone a chance to respond before someone gets banned and then we're stuck. We either have to keep going with what you've done even if we disagree with it or we have to undo it. And then no matter what we say, you end up doing the complete polar opposite anyway because you personally decided it was wrong about a day after doing it. I mean, the fuck?

Case in point:

1. Volourn got banned for a week. He was unbanned by VD a day later after staff, while disagreeing with the ban, agreed that he should remain banned for the week.
   
2. VD interviews himself and 3 people whinge because it didn't have a disclaimer. You know what the staff consensus was? "Add a disclaimer and tell those fucktards to fuck off and stop whinging". What did VD do? Removed his parts after he got the staff's response. I had to get the original interview out of google's cache and put it back in.
   
3. It's all happened again with Spacemoose.

In my opinion, three strikes and you're out. However - and I need to make this very clear - I'm not dictator of the Codex. I actually respect the opinions of Calis and the other staffers. If they all decided that VD should come back and I should shutup, guess what? I would. I wouldn't demand certain powers or else or threaten anyone with bans and tags. I'd just accept the consensus and move on because that's what I do. It's just unfortunate that everytime you've asked for staff feedback, you've ignored it or it's been after the fact where we've disagreed but decided it won't be that bad, only to find out you've changed your mind in the end anyway.

 

[spacemoose]

I've been looking through the threads in the RPG forum and I'm not seeing some sort of "take-over". I mean, is this a lulz crack? Does skyway get banned now because he hasn't responded with anything more than a wise-crack about orgasms and Microsoft? I'm doing a search through all his posts now. Hmmm... Seem to be a lot of one-liners. Sorry skyway, but your kind is not welcome here, you're banned! I mean, for fuck's sake people, lighten the fuck up. cutterjohn doesn't appear to be any better. I'm certainly not finding any long, well-articulated posts from him. The most he seems to be able to string together is 4 sentences about the Witcher. Mind you he's on topic but gee, I dunno... That one-liner he posted for the "lulz" I mean, that shit needs to be stopped! Sorry guys but GD was always about the lulz.

Under KC's current stance, Multi-Headed Dicks never would've gotten anywhere.

YES.

all these goosesteppers coming out of the woodwork making me feell like I've woken up and its suddenly idiocracy codex. I suppose its fitting that KC is modding

 

[kingcomrade]

While I understand your point, we didn't ban Volourn for doing the same thing

I wasn't suggesting a ban, Spacemoose said he needed a place to post his nonlulzy stuff and I showed him one.

Under KC's current stance

I was made mod because there was a big long thread where everyone was complaining that the quality of GD was in the gutters. I'm not sure what else my "stance" is supposed to be, since spam was the complaint. Anyways, if you think I should change my stance of moderation then feel free to tell me, since you're in charge now. Or if you don't think GD should be moderated at all that's your call.

It's funny though that spam in GD is acceptable now after I just had to sit through a bunch of flak from the very people complaining about my moderation about how I did nothing but spam GD before becoming mod, complaining that their own spam was being removed. You're a bit of a hypocrite, Spacemoose.

 

[dagorkan]

Great post, AnalogKid

 

[Cassidy]

Before, dramas were about the "nazification of Codex", now it seems things have completely reverted. And no need to be a diviner to know this thread isn't going anywhere, just like the previous one.

"Codex isn't a democracy" - I see it more like a "benevolent dictatorship" where people are free to say most things, even when they are silly, so it's neither a "nazi reich" nor a "democracy" though some people seem to be to eager to pull it to one of the extremes. And as the opinions of people are heard most time, and as power isn't centered in the hands of a single member(the "admins council" from what I got from all these threads), there is a certain balance of power around to put things under check.

"Bring the banhammer now!" arguments - A Codex with the level of moderation of ESF would lose its soul, because checking General Discussion of 2002, I don't see a complete lack of LULZ threads at all, so I believe the only things that changed around was the intolerance, which seem to have grown in the last months due to some regular "Needs more moderation!" threads which funnily seem to not be so spotlighted like the "Unban -insert name here-" joke threads and the quality of the "LULZ", as the older ones are usually much more witty. If you want a place where you can report somebody for calling you a "faggot" or for posting a thread "for the Lulz" and see him banned, you're in the wrong forums. And forums like Codex are a rarity compared with the "agree with me or ban!" ones. Plus ESF proves that moderation won't solve problems involving stupidity. It's a question of encouragement as well: being answered = being encouraged. And considering certain LULZ threads in GD filled more pages of replies than most discussions about RPGs, there is a certain encouragement for some of such threads around.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

The problem I have with you is that this isn't the first time you've acted unilaterally for what was seen as a non-issue and I am sorry but I have gotten tired of it. Spacemoose was originally warned over something which should never have been an issue. We don't ban people because, shock, horror, they made a tasteless remark about a high-school massacre. Whatever happened to just calling someone a moron if you disagreed with them? But to log-on and find the forums defaced that I then have to clean up and then to discover that what started this was a COMPLETE non-issue, just rubs me up the wrong way. Sure, we'd all like to have these discussions in the staff forums and not let them get out here but hey, this thread was on page 8 before I replied. The problem I have is simply that you don't let these things stay in the Staff forums before you act. You don't give anyone a chance to respond before someone gets banned and then we're stuck. We either have to keep going with what you've done even if we disagree with it or we have to undo it. And then no matter what we say, you end up doing the complete polar opposite anyway because you personally decided it was wrong about a day after doing it. I mean, the fuck?

Case in point:

1. Volourn got banned for a week. He was unbanned by VD a day later after staff, while disagreeing with the ban, agreed that he should remain banned for the week.
   
2. VD interviews himself and 3 people whinge because it didn't have a disclaimer. You know what the staff consensus was? "Add a disclaimer and tell those fucktards to fuck off and stop whinging". What did VD do? Removed his parts after he got the staff's response. I had to get the original interview out of google's cache and put it back in.
   
3. It's all happened again with Spacemoose.

In my opinion, three strikes and you're out. However - and I need to make this very clear - I'm not dictator of the Codex. I actually respect the opinions of Calis and the other staffers. If they all decided that VD should come back and I should shutup, guess what? I would. I wouldn't demand certain powers or else or threaten anyone with bans and tags. I'd just accept the consensus and move on because that's what I do. It's just unfortunate that everytime you've asked for staff feedback, you've ignored it or it's been after the fact where we've disagreed but decided it won't be that bad, only to find out you've changed your mind in the end anyway.

Good god. Get your priorities straight. Yeah, everybody gets their panties in a bunch over something, and yours is obviously erratic admining. So VD apparently gets 3 strikes over four years. How many strikes do the legions of retards get every day? You get all fucking pensive over VD overeacting over Spacemoose which would have all probably blown over anyway, so you pull pretty much the same shit with the added twist of posting private messages. Classy. If the hands down most productive person here gets shown the door for three strikes for the sake of retards, I'm sorry, but the Codex really is dead. All the goddamn retards clamoring for VD's head in the name of the almighty Codex ethos have it wrong. The fucking Codex is not egalitarian, it's not the champion of the common man, defender of the dregs of the internet who'd get shown the door anywhere else; we're a bunch of angry, bitter, and bright cunts who see our little corner of world in a bit different light than the legions of jackasses who slobber over the newest shovelware with bloom, and we'll gladly rip anyone who crosses us a new asshole. At least we used to be before we got day jobs.

Saint fucking knew that. And VD in his own way knows that. If you've got too much other shit in your life to deal with lots of bullshit controversy, I know the feeling well. Why aren't you the one heading out the door instead of VD then? I've generally liked you in the past and thought you've done a good job, but this shabby treatment you've been giving him is total bullshit at best.

 

[dagorkan]

Why aren't you the one heading out the door instead of VD then? I've generally liked you in the past and thought you've done a good job, but this shabby treatment you've been giving him is total bullshit at best.

Yeah. Or put less politely, you're a scumbag

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Good god. Get your priorities straight. Yeah, everybody gets their panties in a bunch over something, and yours is obviously erratic admining. So VD apparently gets 3 strikes over four years.

All of that happened within the last 9 months actually, with recent events seeming to indicate that it was only going to get worse. I like to nip problems in the butt before they get too out of hand... and when VD came onboard, he wasn't a forum admin, he was just a newsie. I think it was about a year after that before he was made admin. I could be wrong though. Either way, his ability to post news shouldn't be affected by us implementing a consistent admin policy. And what really, is wrong with getting a few admins on board who are willing to discuss things with the rest of the staff before they act? Especially those things which we've made clear are to be discussed before any action is taken?

How many strikes do the legions of retards get every day?

Well apparently we make them moderators, so who knows how that works?

You get all fucking pensive over VD overeacting over Spacemoose which would have all probably blown over anyway

You obviously missed the bit about what was being planned. Believe me when I tell you this wouldn't have blown over any time soon.

so you pull pretty much the same shit with the added twist of posting private messages. Classy.

Email actually and hey guess what, Saint quite happily did that kind of stuff too, so pull your head out of your arse.

If the hands down most productive person here gets shown the door for three strikes for the sake of retards, I'm sorry, but the Codex really is dead.

Actually the hands down most productive guy was Saint. He's made twice as many news posts as VD ever has and still the guy hasn't been around for over a year now. You must have also missed the bit where the hands-down second most productive guy said he wanted to step down for a bit anyway. And for the record, Exitium came in third with about 2/3rds the number of items as VD. Now hey, whatever happened to Rex? Oh yeah... He didn't listen to any of the other admins and couldn't control himself. I remember now.

All the goddamn retards clamoring for VD's head in the name of the almighty Codex ethos have it wrong. The fucking Codex is not egalitarian, it's not the champion of the common man, defender of the dregs of the internet who'd get shown the door anywhere else; we're a bunch of angry, bitter, and bright cunts who see our little corner of world in a bit different light than the legions of jackasses who slobber over the newest shovelware with bloom, and we'll gladly rip anyone who crosses us a new asshole. At least we used to be before we got day jobs.

Interesting point but I fail to see its relevance. I doubt Spacemoose is about to jump up and down in high praise for Oblivion, nor any of the other "retards" you seem to be unable to avoid, even though you seem quite happy to post in their threads. Even so, why are we now censoring people's comments about a high-school massacre? OH-OH black humour's not allowed here anymore. Welcome to the New Codex™. Enjoy your stay and be careful with what you post as it might get you banned.

REMEMBER: This didn't start because of anything about the "lulz". This started because VD personally didn't like the comment Spacemoose made. Actually, it started even before that when VD over-reacted to Spacemoose's comment in the "Everybody Loves Role-Player" thread.

Saint fucking knew that. And VD in his own way knows that.

Well gosh-darned it, clearly I didn't know that. Wait a minute... I'm the fourth person who ever registered here. That's funny. How did that happen? Oh yeah, that's right, I've been here right from the start. I was here for all those conversations about what kind of site the original group wanted to setup. Funny about that. And for the record, I left back then about a month after things were setup because I did have other stuff to attend. I came back onboard a few years ago just as Rex blew-up. You know what Rex was doing? Getting mad and banning people. So Saint pulled his access. In fact there's a lovely log about it in the staff forum.

If you've got too much other shit in your life to deal with lots of bullshit controversy, I know the feeling well. Why aren't you the one heading out the door instead of VD then?

... because I'm the one who wants to stay and I didn't say I had too much other shit to deal with. Quite simply, there was a very easy way VD could've dealt with Spacemoose that would've avoided any and all drama. PM him. Spacemoose isn't some kind of uncontrollable fuck. VD even knew that because he was talking to him about it, after he'd banned him. Instead of that though, he got all riled up and reacted in the heat of the moment. He was unable to keep a cool head when it came to moderating the forums and as a result, he dumbfucked at least 3 people and created a list where he threatened to ban another bunch because they all thought warning Spacemoose over his comment was mentally deficient.

Here's the thing, I'd have been on that list too if I'd been on the Codex before all of this happened.

I've generally liked you in the past and thought you've done a good job, but this shabby treatment you've been giving him is total bullshit at best.

Which is funny because you seem to agree with me. You agree that VD over-reacted to Spacemoose. You agree he's done some pretty erratic moderating. And why are you defending his actions then? Because the guy posts news. Unlike most people here, I have a very distinct ability to look at two different issues quite separately. VD the news poster? Not a problem. Brilliant. Hope he stays. Keep up the good work. VD the Administrator though? Get bent.

I'm sorry but that's my opinion. As far as I'm concerned, what VD has done was borderline Rex. Now Rex made a mistake in that it was his news-posting that became the problem, so he was thrown out without question as the man had no other talents. VD's still in the perfectly okay box with his news posting though. Unfortunately he's made it clear that he's not willing to be a member of staff unless he gets to dictate who gets banned and who doesn't and I'm sorry, but for a site which has ALWAYS had the policy that nobody got banned for stupid remarks, which has ALWAYS had the policy that banning someone is a Very Serious Thing™ which requires discussion amongst the staff members, VD's proven that he's not very good at it.

And don't make the mistake thinking I'm standing up for the retards. What I am standing up for is Administrators who are going to let the rest of us know what the fuck is going on AND who are going to LISTEN to the other Administrators. Sorry, but I will never support someone who refuses to take the OVERWHELMING advice of the rest of the staff, ignore it and act according to their own whims because someone knew how to get their panties in a knot and pushed their buttons.

Why aren't you the one heading out the door instead of VD then? I've generally liked you in the past and thought you've done a good job, but this shabby treatment you've been giving him is total bullshit at best.

Yeah. Or put less politely, you're a scumbag

You do realise that you're one of the retards everyone's talking about, don't you?

And hey, aren't you still supposed to be self-banned?

Right, now who wants to line up next?

 

[callehe]

Thanks DU, that's the Codex I know.

Hopefully, VD you can swallow your pride to come back and make newsposts. Your ability to finding and presenting stupidity is second to none, always a good read.

 

[vrok]

REMEMBER: This didn't start because of anything about the "lulz". This started because VD personally didn't like the comment Spacemoose made. Actually, it started even before that when VD over-reacted to Spacemoose's comment in the "Everybody Loves Role-Player" thread.

This appears to have some truth behind it, considering that http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=20368, only two months ago, didn't result in any warnings/bans or even the retardoing of the thread, despite... Yeah, you can see for yourself, don't forget to check the second page. I'd say that thread's mighty worse than what happened in the massacre thread! :D

 

[Calis]

Not going into anyone's points right now (and I refuse to get dragged into a discussion nit-picking the specifics of the past days), but here's the "Calis Recap Post".

I'll do it in a nice point-by-point way. If I misrepresented anyone's stance, feel free let me know.

1. "The site will die without VD!"
Probably not, but I don't think anyone here is trying to downplay his value.

2. "DU is staging a coup, and got his cronie Calis in on it!"
No. I have no close personal friendship with DU. In fact, he got on my nerves before the Codex even existed, and on practical management issues, I think voted with VD at least as often as I voted with DU, though I didn't keep score. Also, I can't look into DU's mind, but I doubt he has a Machiavellian desire to have absolute control of as many niche websites that he can. Let's not get too overboard in the questioning of motives, mm-kay? Whether they be mine, VD's, or DU's.
Also, I'd like to state that I blame DU somewhat for the fallout caused by the mud-slinging in the Time Travel thread, more than anyone else. Then again, I should've seen this coming, it's hardly the first time DU and VD duked it out for all you people to see, and DU and VD are hardly the only staff members to ever take issues that should remain private to the public forums.

3. "Sure, but it's still a coup!"
Disagree. In fact, I e-mailed VD that I was going to demote him for a bit to put a pause to the entire people get banned, drama ensues, people get unbanned, others get dumbfucked, etc, etc. Told him I would reverse this action if he gave the word. (in fact, seeing how he still has the current FTP password, he can even make himself an admin again; there's no real way to lock anyone out of anything if he still has the FTP login). Not to start the mudslinging again, but from my perspective the "VD is the victim of a coup!" outcry that was going around yesterday is simply not true.
Also, in retrospect, what I should've done with this is demote every admin rather than just VD, and make the freeze complete until all this stuff is sorted out. Leaving the other active admins up was a dumb idea, but I'm not going to fix that now. Live and learn, I guess.

I'm a bit disappointed with how everything was handled, but I can live with that.

Which is fair enough. My partially-knee-jerk "shake things up" action might not have been the perfect way to handle this and the entire "DU shoutdown" stuff didn't help either, but really, take a look in the mirror as well while you're at it. Contrary to what the other thread suggests, I do not have a time machine, so we can only decide where to go from here.

4. "The suggestion that VD become just-a-newsie without absolute forum power is preposterous!"
No, it really isn't. Don't get me wrong, I can understand the stance: "if I'm running this place, I want to be able to clean the forum as I see fit as well", but becoming "just" the editor-in-chief while someone else with a bit more distance from the community keeps the forum masses at bay is actually a pretty healthy way to run a news/content oriented site (but would, of course, run contrary to how we've done things since the site was started). Of course, that's the trouble right there: this website has such strong tie-in with its community. Web 2.0-codex might not be such a bad idea.

5. "Now we have pro-spamposter admins running the site!"
It was never a question of disagreeing that this site would be better off with more discussion on games (RPG's and tactical games - don't forget, TC is also a part of this dealio), it was a question of disagreeing on how this should be done. Now, this went from:
Calis: Cooldown period!
VD: Sure, but we do really need to talk about admin policies. I want to do a dumbfuck crackdown, clean this place out. I don't want to do it unilaterally, so you guys really need to discuss this - if you're not with me on this, don't bother reinstating my admin rights.
DU: (posts some insightful stuff on moderation mixed with a big bag of nasty criticism, some of it insulting, of how VD has handled this so far)
Half of forum: VD IS OUR HERO! This coup is undemocratic and must be stopped!
Other half of forum: VD was a nazi who sucked at moderating, but we'll miss his news and content! Hope we can still do the lulz!

Then shit escalated even more, I locked the timetravel thread, and made this post.
The bold part is where I paraphrased VD's stance. The reason we haven't posted an official "Ok, he's out for good!" or an official "Ok, he's back!" yet is that there still really isn't a true consensus. I'm going to push to have one within 24 hours, but if it takes longer, it takes longer.

6. "Why was such-and-such unbanned?"
When I realized they were unbanned after the restore, I had a look first who needed to be banned, really, and who didn't, at this point. You can scream for justice, but you can't scream for insta-justice. It's not like TNP and his nazi zombie army will be marching in if I leave him unbanned for an extra hour. This "We want you to ban them NOOOOWWWW you lazy fuck" stuff is just silly.

edit:
7. "OMG you idiots, can't you see KC is teh worst moderator ever?"
Not to get into a discussion on the specifics of KC's moderating style, I'd say that picking an active forum poster to moderate one of the forums was a good call. KC's worth as a forum denizen doesn't even factor into this, what matters is that he takes his limited access and acts according to what the forum admins tell him to do, using his own judgement. Now, most of what DU (and also Snails, I believe) said applies to thisick your actions and stick with them, overturn them only if other moderators or your superiors (however you want to define that) tell you that you were wrong; public forum outcries should only factor into this minimally.

 

[Calis]

Good god. Get your priorities straight. Yeah, everybody gets their panties in a bunch over something, and yours is obviously erratic admining. So VD apparently gets 3 strikes over four years.

This is only part of the issue. While I may not agree fully with DU's harsh judgement of VD's actions or judgement, you should note that VD has taken somewhat of a GW Bush style "either you're with us, or you're with dem terrists" stance. Which is in part my own damn fault due to the way I've handled this, but still.

so you pull pretty much the same shit with the added twist of posting private messages. Classy.

No argument there, never been a big fan of that. In fact, I made a rather ominous remark about it on the staff forum, scary enough to make DU post "But analogkid started it!" when he replied to this thread :D

 

[Ivy Mike]

This discussion has come full circle now, so perhaps it would be for the best just to let it die down? Nonting productive will ever come from further discussion from this point on. All the points have been made and I know that I sure as fuck could do without the forthcoming backpedaling.

 

[Vault Dweller]

For the record, I logged in and thought what had happened to the forums was hilarious.

Doesn't come as a surprise.

Btw:

http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=442174#442174:

"Before anyone believes that shit and starts repeating it around, I can guarantee that's absolutely not true. Not one staff member was amused by that business the other day."

You lied to us, baby arm.

Can't you guys use your brains and figure out that a thread titled "Who's your favourite Codex homosexual?" isn't something you want to read and leave it alone?

Good idea!

But to log-on and find the forums defaced that I then have to clean up and then to discover that what started this was a COMPLETE non-issue, just rubs me up the wrong way.

The reason that shit happened is because NL was allowed to keep his admin privileges - for the lulz I guess, even though he didn't do anything for either site. So, uh, let's not file under "Yet another VD's crime", ok?

The problem I have is simply that you don't let these things stay in the Staff forums before you act. You don't give anyone a chance to respond before someone gets banned and then we're stuck.

I'm here every day, dealing with all that shit, you're here once a week. I'd say reacting instantly is better than reacting a week later, but maybe that's just me.

Case in point:

1. Volourn got banned for a week. He was unbanned by VD a day later after staff, while disagreeing with the ban, agreed that he should remain banned for the week.
   
2. VD interviews himself and 3 people whinge because it didn't have a disclaimer. You know what the staff consensus was? "Add a disclaimer and tell those fucktards to fuck off and stop whinging". What did VD do? Removed his parts after he got the staff's response. I had to get the original interview out of google's cache and put it back in.
   
3. It's all happened again with Spacemoose.

That's a load of crap, DU. First, Spacemoose posted those pictures instantly, thus forcing my hand. Btw, did you complain when Baby Arm banned him for a day for spamming GD? Or was it because BA did it quietly and I did it openly?

Now, the interview. I did it after BA (damn, BA again! I'm beggining to suspect that he's some kinda Zionist agent-provocateur) told me that answering my own questions, in any context, was a stupid idea and that I made an ass out of myself. Then I removed it. Not to contradict your opinion, which was the real crime there, I guess, but to listen to another *active* admin.

And finally Volourn. I don't really recall a consensus of which you speak of there. I do recall several people stating that I should unban him after a day and someone even volunteered to do that for me, so that I save my face.

Besides, there is another factor here - the will of the people. You bitch at me for listening to folks here, but why shouldn't I? Why should I make decisions that go against of what the most people here want? So, let's recap. Most people wanted me to unban Volourn. Most people supported my "war efforts" (see the pre-revolution poll). You, of course, don't give a shit, but that's your problem, not mine.

In my opinion, three strikes and you're out.

New rule? Awesome. Mind you, I have no problem with you acting quickly and decisively, changing rules to deal with new situations. I have a problem with you blaming me for the same shit that you do. Now, as for the strikes business, let's see if I can play this game too:

- remember when we all voted against NSFW pictures? We all did, even Spazmo, peace be upon him. What did you do? You said that you don't give a fuck and to prove it posted tubgirl on the open forums. Very classy.

- apparently, the admins are still deciding whether or not to back me up. Discussing it for 3 days is a bit impotent, but again, maybe it's just me. What did you do? You attacked me, stating that I'm a moron, basically, and that I'll never get admin powers back, thus ensuring that I'm out for good, while Calis & Co are still discussing it. Strike two?

Anyway...

I'd just accept the consensus and move on because that's what I do.

Too funny.

... and when VD came onboard, he wasn't a forum admin, he was just a newsie. I think it was about a year after that before he was made admin. I could be wrong though.

You're wrong.

As far as I'm concerned, what VD has done was borderline Rex...

Now hey, whatever happened to Rex? Oh yeah... He didn't listen to any of the other admins and couldn't control himself.

You missed the part where I said that I need everyone's backing for the proposed "initiative".

Sorry, but I will never support someone who refuses to take the OVERWHELMING advice of the rest of the staff, ignore it and act according to their own whims because someone knew how to get their panties in a knot and pushed their buttons.

It's true, I guess. Everyone knows that posting some disgusting shit like stabbing someone with a turd and then fucking the corpse will get my attention quickly. If elected, I promise to disregard such things and leave these threads alone. Honest!

"Bring the banhammer now!" arguments - A Codex with the level of moderation of ESF would lose its soul...

Well, we can't have THAT, can we, dear?

Hopefully, VD you can swallow your pride...

You still think it's about pride? Or the coveted and prestigious admin status?

...in fact, seeing how he still has the current FTP password, he can even make himself an admin again; there's no real way to lock anyone out of anything if he still has the FTP login

Do you truly believe that I would do something like that?

I'm a bit disappointed with how everything was handled, but I can live with that.

Which is fair enough. My partially-knee-jerk "shake things up" action might not have been the perfect way to handle this and the entire "DU shoutdown" stuff didn't help either, but really, take a look in the mirror as well while you're at it.

Huh? I merely replied to DU's "VD is a moron unfit to govern" campaign. You can't blame me for that, can you? As far as I know I didn't make any a-la Rex threads demanding or complaining about something. Like I said, I'm ok with being a private citizen, and I'll be more than happy to leave these discussions alone, assuming DU will stop throwing shit at me.

Here is an advice. Lock this thread and retardo any follow ups. What's done is done. Like you said, we can't turn time back. Let's move on.

Of course, that's the trouble right there: this website has such strong tie-in with its community.

That's the trouble right there.

This is only part of the issue. While I may not agree fully with DU's harsh judgement of VD's actions or judgement, you should note that VD has taken somewhat of a GW Bush style "either you're with us, or you're with dem terrists" stance. Which is in part my own damn fault due to the way I've handled this, but still.

Not really. The old ways no longer work - in my humble opinion, of course. I thought that what needed was a decisive policy shift, supported and enforced by all admins. That's what it was about. Not "you are with me or against me" crap.

 

[Calis]

The reason that shit happened is because NL was allowed to keep his admin privileges - for the lulz I guess, even though he didn't do anything for either site. So, uh, let's not file under "Yet another VD's crime", ok?

With you on this one.

I'm here every day, dealing with all that shit, you're here once a week. I'd say reacting instantly is better than reacting a week later, but maybe that's just me.

That is indeed at the very root of the "how should this forum be moderated?" dispute. Insta-banning when someone goes on a NSFW image spamming spree is OK, the problem is that the prolonged drama-discussion on specific moderation policies in public forums leads to crap like this and has nothing to do with making the forum community healthier.
Not even Spacemoose disputed that an insta-ban for crap like this is valid. I'd say that precisely *because* you're knee-deep in the forums, it's a bad idea to have you in a position to make dumbfuck threats. Now, I don't share DU's sentiment of "VD is a moron who shouldn't be admin", but I do very much believe that a cooler admin-policy where we don't get into second-guessing on the forums all the fucking time is a more productive step towards raising this place's quality than a fairly arbitrary crackdown period. Shaping a community that way just doesn't work. It'd be like invading Iraq and expecting the country and expecting a superior political system and infrastructure to spring up overnight.

- remember when we all voted against NSFW pictures? We all did, even Spazmo, peace be upon him. What did you do? You said that you don't give a fuck and to prove it posted tubgirl on the open forums. Very classy.

- apparently, the admins are still deciding whether or not to back me up. Discussing it for 3 days is a bit impotent, but again, maybe it's just me. What did you do? You attacked me, stating that I'm a moron, basically, and that I'll never get admin powers back, thus ensuring that I'm out for good, while Calis & Co are still discussing it. Strike two?

That's why we need a coherent moderation policy (even though it doesn't necessarily come with an exact ruleset for regulars to follow) rather than "let's crack down on the idiots".

You missed the part where I said that I need everyone's backing for the proposed "initiative".

Well, you did go a bit further than that, unless I totally misread what you were saying. See GW bush remark.

...in fact, seeing how he still has the current FTP password, he can even make himself an admin again; there's no real way to lock anyone out of anything if he still has the FTP login

Do you truly believe that I would do something like that?

No, I don't, but this was more in response to the general atmosphere of "It's an unconstitutional coup!" and not a "I left the back door open, VD is welcome to sneak in" remark.

DU's "VD is a moron unfit to govern" campaign. You can't blame me for that, can you? As far as I know I didn't make any a-la Rex threads demanding or complaining about something. Like I said, I'm ok with being a private citizen, and I'll be more than happy to leave these discussions alone, assuming DU will stop throwing shit at me.

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about your uncompromising "Either give me free reign or don't put me back to admin" stance, as well as giving the "I'm a victim" impression in the other thread.

Not really. The old ways no longer work - in my humble opinion, of course. I thought that what needed was a decisive policy shift, supported and enforced by all admins. That's what it was about. Not "you are with me or against me" crap.

The old ways were never all that awesome, but I don't exactly see a willingness to rationally discuss this from your side, either. You seem unwilling to debate the (un)reasonability of a cooler admin policy simply because DU was being a bit of an ass. Given the way this played out, I think my GW Bush comparison was apt.

 

[callehe]

VD imho the old ways do work, all we need are some more topics to discuss. People get bored when there are few news posts (and they've been few and far between recently) to discuss and there will be more retarded topics. In a sense, retarded GD discussions that are for enterntainment are good to keep this site interesting when there are nothing else going on. And if people can't have that little breather then it's going to be frustrating and boring around here. There are people like me here I'm sure that like to follow both the RPG discussions and the GD discussions.

The change of the website to as of now is great, the new format encourages RPG discussion, and GD is pretty dead. That's because there's more RPG news to actually talk about.

VD, this is probably the best thing that could happen, think about it:
1. You get to do something fun: posting news instead of moderating
2. With more newsposters there's always something interesting RPG related to discuss
3. You can spend more time on AoD
4. You got DU and Calis to become active mods

The only downside is that you don't have the ultimate powahs to ban people, but you never enjoyed that anyway?

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD imho the old ways do work, all we need are some more topics to discuss.

Disagree.

People get bored when there are few news posts (and they've been few and far between recently) to discuss and there will be more retarded topics. In a sense, retarded GD discussions that are for enterntainment are good to keep this site interesting when there are nothing else going on.

Nothing else going on? Did you miss all the excitement about the Witcher and MotB? As for the fewer number of newsposts latety, there wasn't much to report. Newsposts like "interview with a composer" or "game X is delayed" /"game X will be released soon" won't generate a lot of interest or discussions. We've always filtered down the news stream to something relevant or entertaining. No offense to the new news team, of course. They should report whatever they like.

And if people can't have that little breather then it's going to be frustrating and boring around here.

Maybe. Maybe not.

4. You got DU and Calis to become active mods

The only downside is that you don't have the ultimate powahs to ban people, but you never enjoyed that anyway?

If Calis and DU were interested in cleaning up the place, I would have been more than happy to leave all that shit to them. However, since we disagree on both the definition of the problem and required solutions, I doubt that would happen.

 

[Jedi_Learner]

Oh PLEASE.

Look, all he responds with is piss and vinegar. He's belligerent, blunt, and holier-than-though in everything he does. I didn't do a single fucking thing but try to help the man, and all he does is try and act superior.

HE ONLY HELPED THE CODEX TO GET SOMETHING OUT OF IT. If you don't see that, there's nothing I can do to help you. He's acted like a child through this whole period, and he's what... in his 40's? It's ridiculous. He now has connections within the industry. He would not have had any of that without the Codex. He owes us, in fact.

Yes, he's done wonderful things for the Codex. This how people like myself repay him? I've been around as long as he has, and I don't demand an ounce of respect from anyone. He, on the other hand, DEMANDS respect and even punishes those who he thinks DON'T respect him. If he had thought for a second that you were not an absolute ass kisser for him, he would have banned you. No doubt about it.

In the same way you have lost my respect (I used to think you were smug and on point, now you're just useless), so has he. You know what? You're right, I can't "handle" Vault Dweller, he's clearly a better poster on a forum. Oh noes. I can sure as fuck handle you, though.

 

[Sovard]

Good job emo kid, here I was not trying to get into all of this bullshit... and you put up a PM I sent in response to you. Bravo.

Look, VD fucked up, it's obvious. He's proved he can be as much of a dumbfuck as anyone.

This thread, and the one surely to follow when it's locked, don't have a place on the site. A couple of mewling vaginas going back and fucking forth when you're all supposed to be grown men.

If VD didn't care about his admin status, he would contribute content/news regardless of his status. It's as simple as that.

Keep your admin discussions to yourselves. On one hand you remove GD from the ticker, on the other hand you allow threads like this one in feedback, which bypass the ticker. Be a little more thorough, gentlemen.

EDIT: Hey! My PM! I just realized I followed through on "thou" with "though" lulz, amirite?

 

[xedoc gpr]

Oh, shut up about the stupid not caring about admin/returning to news posts stuff. Nobody wants to be "forced" to return as a peasant where they were once a ruler, it'd be humiliating and embarrassing each time he posted. It'd be like a cloud hanging over his head "I was once an admin but they shut me off and kicked me down." Do you remember Exitium's posts here after being demoted, pretending like he didn't notice, how pathetic that was? And you'd have all of the idiots who didn't like him parading it in his face, it just doesn't work.

Either he gets the "full clear" or he's not gonna come back, and I think most people would do the same.

 

[Sovard]

Oh, shut up about the stupid not caring about admin/returning to news posts stuff. Nobody wants to be "forced" to return as a peasant where they were once a ruler, it'd be humiliating and embarrassing each time he posted. It'd be like a cloud hanging over his head "I was once an admin but they shut me off and kicked me down."

Yeah, that's a pretty apt way to describe his feelings. "He loves the Codex so much, but why should he do it without getting something out of it?"

Well said.

 

[Vault Dweller]

That is indeed at the very root of the "how should this forum be moderated?" dispute. Insta-banning when someone goes on a NSFW image spamming spree is OK, the problem is that the prolonged drama-discussion on specific moderation policies in public forums leads to crap like this and has nothing to do with making the forum community healthier.

Which is why I said that when we ban idiots we ban all their idiotic supporters as well. Good arguments explaining why someone shouldn't have banned should be encouraged. Dumb "unban true patriot X!" posts shouldn't. Cassidy's posts are a good example of that. Maybe when Cassidy is no longer able to express himself through stupid posts, he will focus on contributing something more meaningful, as overall, he's an alright guy.

Not even Spacemoose disputed that an insta-ban for crap like this is valid. I'd say that precisely *because* you're knee-deep in the forums, it's a bad idea to have you in a position to make dumbfuck threats.

Well, obviously it's much easier to tolerate some shit when one shows up once a week.

...I do very much believe that a cooler admin-policy where we don't get into second-guessing on the forums all the fucking time is a more productive step towards raising this place's quality than a fairly arbitrary crackdown period.

And I wish you luck with implementing one.

Shaping a community that way just doesn't work.

The community is fine and doesn't require shaping. The problems are old "everything goes" rules that weren't designed with "let's welcome all retards and make them feel at home", and some people who are taking advantage of that rule and are here exclusively for the lulz.

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about your uncompromising "Either give me free reign or don't put me back to admin" stance...

Again. I didn't ask to give me free reign. I asked you to support me (if you agree with my definition of the problem) and stand with me, restoring the forums where they once were. If you disagree, which you did, then you're better off without me as having admins pulling into different directions and undermining each other is bad for the site. Simple as that. No personal drama. I sincerely hope that you are right and that you can improve the site with a more liberal approach.

... as well as giving the "I'm a victim" impression in the other thread.

Where? I simply disagreed with my powers being taken away arbitrarily and with DU's open statements. Surely you can understand. I would have preferred to discuss everything together, see different arguments, argue and compromise if necessary. Had we failed to agree on something within a day or two, I would have stepped down myself, with less drama and a suitable, inoffensive for other admins, explanation.

The old ways were never all that awesome, but I don't exactly see a willingness to rationally discuss this from your side, either.

Discuss where and how? I was discussing it with you via emails. You stopped responding at some point and never offered me your position, even though I asked for it. I stated that starting with a ban would be too extreme and that warning "the usual suspects" would be a better idea. Is that not a willingness to discuss rationally? Come on, Calis.

I was only given an opprtunity to respond to DU's statements. You and Shagnak tried to avoid making any statements, thus leaving me in the dark about different opinions. At this point I have no fucking idea what this alternative to what I suggested is. Anyway, like I said, considering how everything was handled, let's leave everything as is and move on. I have absolutely no problems with that. No hard feelings either.

 

[xedoc gpr]

Yeah, that's a pretty apt way to describe his feelings. "He loves the Codex so much, but why should he do it without getting something out of it?"

Well said.

Exactly. I don't know why that's considered something bad.

We're not starving children, there's no need for him to give us charity news posting without any benefit to him.

This is a web forum. Your sentence is too melodramatic for the circumstances.