Proving Calis right (and responding to DU)...

[Ivy Mike]

Even the resident idiocracy get it right sometime:

Enough with the circle-jerking already. Solutions! Get to it!

This "he said, she said" tirade is just so fucking tiresome. No one is going to cave in any time soon, so just make up your fucking mind on what stance you're going to take and stick with it. This shifting blame / "you hurt my feelings" / "BUT YOU STARTED IT!!" drama is leading nowhere. As of right now both sides are starting to look like five year olds fighting over who gets the last lollipop.

 

[dagorkan]

That said, I would personally give VD another chance provided he met the following conditions:

1. We put together some rules but we're not doing a "crackdown" on the lulz types. Those types might find more of their stuff ending up in Retardo Land or maybe with some special tags and sure, maybe Spacemoose would've been banned for a while over spamming GD back in September (which all ended up in Retardo Land) but we're not going to start banning people, or threatening to ban people, who make tasteless or bad jokes.
   
2. People only get banned or tagged by staff consensus. That is, VD, DU, Calis, baby arm and Shagnak. If we can all agree (and for the most part, we can) that someone needs to be dealt with, then they're dealt with. But nobody's banning anyone until that consensus is reached. And who fucking cares if that takes 2 or 3 days?
   
3. He comes back on staff but he doesn't get forum admin access. Despite what people think, Forum Admin access isn't some special priviledge. All it lets you do is make people Moderators and ban people, along with some general config stuff which we need to tweak from time to time. We don't need fifteen admins to do that, especially if we're deciding things by consensus.
   
4. He would have his full news and content priviledges and would be free to continue writing articles and making news posts as he has done for the past several years.
   
5. He doesn't threaten anyone with banning again, evar. Not unless it's already been discussed by the rest of the staff and a consensus was reached. He's more than free to call them a moron and verbally abuse the crap out of them for their tasteless humour but it's not going to end up with a ban.

That sounds quite reasonable. I realize I went a bit overboard with my remarks in the last few days.

 

[Vault Dweller]

@ Vrok

Since it seems like we simply must discuss the Spacemoose scandal one more time...

There was a serious discussion about the Finland school shooting. Nobody was cracking any jokes there, so Spacemoose decided to fix that and posted the famous "only 8? WEAK!" comment. I thought it was way, way over the top and really stupid so I told him to knock it off: "Spacemoose, if you insist on acting like a moron, find another forums. That's a warning."

He could have moved on, but he decided to fight back against the tyranny and replied with "holy shit. u cannot b sirius". I didn't see it as teasing. I saw it as unwillingness to stop being a moron and discuss things reasonably, so I replied with "Second warning. Instead of the third warning, you'll be banned. Hint: Stop being a retard and all is forgiven."

Spacemoose replied with some provocative, but innocent pictures. I ignored that, giving him a chance to calm down.

Seeing that he wasn't banned Spacemoose posted that disgusting turd-stabbing, corpse-fucking series ADDING "edit: it seems there's been a misunderstanding. this was meant to be my last post :hmm: " Then I banned him.

 

[vrok]

I know full well what happened. It's not about discussing it. It's this:

I saw it as unwillingness to stop being a moron and discuss things reasonably

That you don't realize what the implications of your statements are apparently. I sure as hell saw it as teasing and apparently so did a few others. That you lashed out against it even though he was asking you "WTF?" in a less hostile (lulz) manner. Reasonably? You showed no intentions of ever acting reasonably during this time until it was too late, when he posted the first few pictures. That you also claimed it was permanent and then discussed things with him in secret is a different matter.

This however was the criticism, instead of facing it you merely word-danced around it. How are any solutions supposed to be agreed upon when this is the quality of the discussion? Not saying DU is acting any better but really, at least his "conditions" were reasonable, as even sheek here admits! Haven't seen you respond to those. If you have in PM's or emails or otherwise, why is this shit-storm still continuing?

 

[Koby]

Not if you make the forum somehow "hidden". That way, people here who want it know where to go, but somebody who stumbles in here won't find it.

You know now that I think about it, it a pretty good idea.

Making another/sub GD section (wait, hear me out), that is only accessible to registered, loged-on users, including viewing only.

It solves the problem almost in its entirety.

That way the hard core lulzing isn’t attracting the wrong audience to this site (!).

GD can go back to be GD, as in, general discussion and casual lulzing, because as it stands right now, you can't expect that the heavy lulzers to contain themselves to just their own threads, they barely contain them themselves in GD.

Every time the heavy lulzers spill into GD, which is now also a buffer between the lulzing and the rest of the sections, all you got to do is move the lulz to a new/existing thread in the hard core lulzing section. No bans necessary, just moving the posts that get in the way in the discussion to their appropriate place.

As long as the heavy lullz section is unadvertised, it shouldn’t be a problem.

That or unlocking RL and hiding it from the 'public', same difference.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I know full well what happened. It's not about discussing it. It's this:

I saw it as unwillingness to stop being a moron and discuss things reasonably

That you don't realize what the implications of your statements are apparently. I sure as hell saw it as teasing and apparently so did a few others.

Then we disagree about it, that's all.

That you also claimed it was permanent ...

To indicate that it's not one of those "It's not a ban, it's a short time-off" things.

...and then discussed things with him in secret is a different matter.

He was way, way more reasonable at that point, which is what he should have been when I asked him to stop.

Not saying DU is acting any better but really, at least his "conditions" were reasonable. Haven't seen you respond to those.

Have you seen my response to Shagnak?

 

[the_Consumer]

No. I am drinking coffee. Better ban me for writing crypting bullshit.

Silly! VD only bans people for disagreeing with him!!!

 

[Au naturel]

You mean the 'Wasteland' forum from DAC I presume Koby?[/quote]

 

[Hory]

He could have moved on, but he decided to fight back against the tyranny and replied with "holy shit. u cannot b sirius". I didn't see it as teasing.

The reply accurately describes spacemoose's justified baffled reaction to an unprecedented and unconstitutional warning and should have let you know that it was you in fact who decided to fight back against years of unwritten RPG Codex conventions.

 

[Koby]

You mean the 'Wasteland' forum from DAC I presume Koby?

I don't even lurk there. How bad is it 'down' there?

 

[Au naturel]

English cannot describe the sights. Everyone should go for a look at least once in their lives though.

Edit: It also allows banned members to post in it. Kind of like those disk thingies in that Superman movie, where the bad guys can scream to their hearts content, but never escape into the real world. Good idea actually.

 

[Vault Dweller]

@ Hory

Of that I'm well aware, which is why I'm ok with the other admins voting for the preservation of the Codex conventions and deciding to "show me the door". I simply dislike the manner in which it was done.

 

[Koby]

English cannot describe the sights. Everyone should go for a look at least once in their lives though.

Edit: It also allows banned members to post in it. Kind of like those disk thingies in that Superman movie, where the bad guys can scream to their hearts content, but never escape into the real world. Good idea actually.

So, your impression is that it serves its purpose, it 'works'? (I'm not going to register there just for that, not my thing)

 

[the_Consumer]

It also allows banned members to post in it. Kind of like those disk thingies in that Superman movie, where the bad guys can scream to their hearts content, but never escape into the real world. Good idea actually.

I thought the purpose of a ban is to get rid of the trash (undesireable elements if you prefer). Restricting them to a subforum instead seems like a very stupid idea.

 

[Calis]

a) Was it really necessary to remove my admin status immediately?

I thought it was a good kick to get this moving, but apparently I misjudged the repercussions.

b) Shouldn't I have been allowed to participate in the staff discussion and at very least, defend and explain my proposal?

I'll leave it at a "yes", since I really can't react to this without furthering the he-said she-said stuff.

c) Was the public beating and open statements like "we threw him lol" necessary and helpful?

No, it wasn't

Too late for that too. Basically, at this point, you are asking me if I'm interested in being part of a team that threw me out without giving me a chance to explain my position, argue and compromise if necessary.

See answer to b. Also calling this a DU'ism.

 

[Au naturel]

So, your impression is that it serves its purpose, it 'works'? (I'm not going to register there just for that, not my thing)

Indeed. No need to register, you can go and see the sights for free.

Even a famous rapper from the Codex now resides there, still spouting his dreams of a fourth Reich.

I thought the purpose of a ban is to get rid of the trash (undesireable elements if you prefer). Restricting them to a subforum instead seems like a very stupid idea.

Yes. However, the trash is more content when it has a little space in which to shout. And the general public gets a free show. A win/win situation.

 

[vrok]

@VD

Yes I saw your response to Shagnak, and I'm not satisfied. I doubt anyone else is either. It sounds like you're going for option B or D but you won't admit it outright. Instead only criticizing the remaining options by saying it's too late for A and C, accompanied by previously mentioned word-dancing around option B. D was left out completely. I assume the lack of clarity in these statements is intentional.

I'm still of the opinion that the circle-jerking must stop since it serves no purpose, and when it comes to this specific issue (arguing with/among the staff) I can't help but feel that the ball has now been placed in your court. DU and Shagnak have already seemed to clarified their stance, I believe it's now your turn. If you don't know yet that's fine, but it'd be nice if you could say so. If you feel you've already clarified then perhaps you could indulge me and others not as socially gifted? Think of it as a nice gesture towards your (obviously harsh and maybe even mean) Codex "fanclub". :D

Edit: If I'm out of line in "requesting" shit (as was previously a concern among some) considering my nonexistent status here then so be it. I still think this finally deserves a no-nonsense response, considering it's been a while now.

Edit 2: Ok, I agree with Ismaul if his scenario is even a possibility anymore.

Edit 3: I might as well state this here and save me the trouble of an additional future post in this thread. Despite what should be my apparent bias when it comes to this issue, I still want you to stay as the Codex superstar news guy despite how much this may seem unreasonable to you and bruise your ego, but not because of that, but because I believe that will make this site a better place.

Even though I can understand your reluctance to and even if you feel it's still a shit solution compared to how it could be after the bannage, you can hardly argue that the Codex will be better off without you (as a news/interview/whatever guy). I can only assume that every other regular Codex visitor feels the same. Hell, even people that don't give a shit about the Codex itself don't want you to stop.

Please, solve this.

 

[Ismaul]

Enough with the circle-jerking already. Solutions! Get to it!

This "he said, she said" tirade is just so fucking tiresome. No one is going to cave in any time soon, so just make up your fucking mind on what stance you're going to take and stick with it. This shifting blame / "you hurt my feelings" / "BUT YOU STARTED IT!!" drama is leading nowhere. As of right now both sides are starting to look like five year olds fighting over who gets the last lollipop.

Yes. Can we fast forward to the make-up sex?
I know VD must be feeling hurt and betrayed, while DU and the others have their righteous ideological cause to uphold. Everyone's integrity is at stake, especially when the blows are dealt in public. But what the public really wants is a Bioware-type romance, give it to us and all will be forgiven. Seriously, take some time to breathe and relax. Let go of the combative stance, then think on it with a fresh mind. Don't let it go down in flames.

In the words of The Nameless One: "Don't let it end like this."

 

[Hory]

@ Hory

Of that I'm well aware, which is why I'm ok with the other admins voting for the preservation of the Codex conventions and deciding to "show me the door". I simply dislike the manner in which it was done.

Then I'm sorry for repeating it. I agree that your removal could have been more graceful, but then again, no party was particularly tactful in these events, from DU's public shaming, to your bans, to Momma's Gang revolulztion.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yes I saw your response to Shagnak, and I'm not satisfied. I doubt anyone else is either. It sounds like you're going for option B or D but you won't admit it outright. Instead only criticizing the remaining options by saying it's too late for A and C, accompanied by previously mentioned word-dancing around option B. D was left out completely. I assume the lack of clarity in these statements is intentional.

I'm still of the opinion that the circle-jerking must stop since it serves no purpose, and when it comes to this specific issue (arguing with/among the staff) I can't help but feel that the ball has now been placed in your court. DU and Shagnak has already seemed to clarified their stance, I believe it's now your turn. If you don't know yet that's fine, but it'd be nice if you could say so. If you feel you've already clarified then perhaps you could indulge me and others not as socially gifted? Think of it as a nice gesture towards your (obviously harsh and maybe even mean) Codex "fanclub". :D

Edit: If I'm out of line in "requesting" shit (as was previously a concern among some) considering my nonexistent status here then so be it. I still think this finally deserves a no-nonsense response, considering it's been a while now.

I'll try to make it very clear then. Had the situation been handled differently, the problem could have been solved in the staff forum and I'm sure that we would have agreed on something. I doubt that many people here think of me as unreasonable, impossible to deal with guy. However...

No, it's not about my feelings. Not at all. The way it was handled casts some serious doubt on the proposed cooperative forums management mode simply because the first thing that was done demonstrated a completely opposite (from what being publicly stated) , very irrational way of doing things. In other words, the newly proposed system has failed immediately. Why should I believe that it's the best and the most fair solution? I suppose I can give it a try and see what happens, but what if god forbid we disagree again? I mean, being thrown out is not a very pleasant experience and I'm not dying to repeat that.

So, to give you a direct answer. I don't really care about managing the forums and will be more than happy to leave this part to someone else, as long as something is being done. I hate to sound like a dick, but at this point I have 0 confidence in the newly formed management body, partly because of how they handled things, partly because they've chosen the least effective, incredibly slow method, and partly because I'm not sure about they feel needs to be changed.

I mean, DU thinks that the revolution was funny and I guess he doesn't have a problem with lulzers at all. Shagnak is afraid that without the lulzers the site will be boring. I'm not sure what exactly Calis thinks, but with two lulz-supporting members the stalemate is guaranteed. So, it seems to me that joining now will result in two things - I'll have to leave in frustration a month later or I'll be thrown out again.

PS. Why vrok is still dumbfucked? To honor my memory? If I was so wrong and out of line and completely fucking crazy, why hasn't it been fixed yet? Don't tell me you are still deciding it.

 

[vrok]

That's a statement I am satisfied with, and can respect fully as it's an effective and worthy end to the circle-jerking. I will now retreat, since I've done all that I feel I am able, and hope that with these things finally in the clear, some agreement or understanding can be made between you and the rest of the staff (hopefully in private).

Good luck.

 

[dagorkan]

PS. Why vrok is still dumbfucked?

I think it looks good on him.

 

[Hazelnut]

Bloody hell. I have a short hiatus in reading the site (because I was too busy upgrading my PC and enjoying G3 as it was intended) and the shit literally hits the fan!

I've read some (not all) of the stuff written about the events of the last week and it beggars belief. I'm a relatively quiet poster, but I've been here pretty much from the beginning. The most irritating and annoying aspect of the site for the past few years has been the FREEDAM! mob who call VD a Nazi. I took a stab at pointing out my opinion in the "Vault Dweller and the nazification of the Codex" over a year ago if anyone cares... here and here. I don't expect anyone to give a crap if they didn't back then, but I think previous discussions like that are relevant to what's happened.

Now, I've no idea what you admins are going to announce, but I hope it's good considering what's been sacrificed. I would not have minded VD getting more strict. The only freedom I give a shit about is the freedom to express reasoned opinions and disagree with any one here, admin or no, not the freedom to be a dick. Sure intelligent and witty lulz are great, but not so much when it becomes attention whoring or a shock pissing contest. If he stepped out of line and started wielding power for the wrong reasons rather than as a replacement for the almost-dead old-time method of keeping the idiots at bay letting them hang themselves followed by poking with sticks then I'd speak up, as I'm sure many would do. Not just the monotonous and predictable "VD is a Nazi" broken records, but other voices on here. I'm pretty sure it would have been obvious, and then maybe something like what just happened would have possibly been justified. (hopefully handled better)

Snails' concerns seem to pretty much parallel mine.

Meh, guess that's settled then. If the rest of you are going to hang on to Saint's hallowed no-ban policy, remember that it worked in no small part because he did trundle off into the trenches on a regular basis and ran off the retards himself, something out of the remaining admins I've only really seen VD have much interest in, and now he's out. It's pretty well just become an empty relic without the activity and interest on the part of the staff to back it up, which is what it seems VD was mainly trying to say.

VD, I have a massive amount of respect for the work and effort that you've put into this site, and I think it made a big difference having someone around who was actually doing things to improve the RPG genre's status. I sincerely hope that the content you write for the Codex doesn't become a casualty of all this - I can live without stricter VD mod policies, I can live without VD news postings, but I would really miss your interviews and reviews.

DU, I've enjoyed many a post of yours over the years, where you rip things to shreds in an amusing manner. However, I really think that posting about this subject in that inimitable fashion of yours was pretty bad judgement. Certainly much worse than anything said or done by any other admin/ex-admin during this debacle. And the "I Win" picture... come on, how pathetic do you think that looked?

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Believe it or not, I took all of that into consideration. Irregardless of whether or not we failed our diplomacy check, in the end, for me, it boiled down to a simple calculation:
(A - B) * C needs to be >> 0 to go ahead with this.
A: Value of different admin policies as guesstimated by Calis
B: Horrible disastrous consequences of losing VD
C: The "Who does this Calis guy think he is, anyway" factor.

For me this was never a pissing contest, or the pretense that any of what you said isn't true. Why do you think this had to take three days?

And I don't agree with the "little effect" statements that have been made concerning admin policies. It's hard to provide a causal or statistical link for certain policies relating to the (subjective) quality of a forum, but I wouldn't have been involved with this mess if I didn't sincerely believe point A in the equation above to hold true. That's how simple it is for me. The fact that we were in a position to decide this based on past effort and continued technical involvement may seem arbitrary to you. When it comes to meddling with editorial or forum administration policy, it even is somewhat arbitrary. I did factor this into what I did. All the time. You don't agree with the values assigned by those involved to the individual points, that's fine, but the statement that they didn't factor in is just not true.
So I can't speak for the rest, but like I said: this took three days, and for me, there was a good reason for it taking three days (no matter how impotent this seemed).

Okay, nice dispassionate analysis. You don't give yourself enough credit in the equation, though.

Had it ever occured to you that the fact it never crossed your mind you felt entitled to dictate terms to VD and even strip him of his privileges might possibly be part of the problem? He wants to go somewhere, you don't. You outnumber him, therefore he loses. Funny how quickly you guys point out the Codex isn't a democracy until it comes to your inner circle. Then its consensus, consensus, consensus. Nice power-sharing arrangement so long as you're not the one doing all the work. Relative contributions don't appear to enter into it anywhere. Can you sorta figure out why this arrangement might piss him off and make him decide he'd be better off striking out on his own rather than carrying around a bunch of dead weight that doesn't do a whole lot but put barriers in his path?

 

[sqeecoo]

No, it's not about my feelings. Not at all. The way it was handled casts some serious doubt on the proposed cooperative forums management mode simply because the first thing that was done demonstrated a completely opposite (from what being publicly stated) , very irrational way of doing things. In other words, the newly proposed system has failed immediately. Why should I believe that it's the best and the most fair solution? I suppose I can give it a try and see what happens, but what if god forbid we disagree again? I mean, being thrown out is not a very pleasant experience and I'm not dying to repeat that.

So, to give you a direct answer. I don't really care about managing the forums and will be more than happy to leave this part to someone else, as long as something is being done. I hate to sound like a dick, but at this point I have 0 confidence in the newly formed management body, partly because of how they handled things, partly because they've chosen the least effective, incredibly slow method, and partly because I'm not sure about they feel needs to be changed.

I mean, DU thinks that the revolution was funny and I guess he doesn't have a problem with lulzers at all. Shagnak is afraid that without the lulzers the site will be boring. I'm not sure what exactly Calis thinks, but with two lulz-supporting members the stalemate is guaranteed. So, it seems to me that joining now will result in two things - I'll have to leave in frustration a month later or I'll be thrown out again.

PS. Why vrok is still dumbfucked? To honor my memory? If I was so wrong and out of line and completely fucking crazy, why hasn't it been fixed yet? Don't tell me you are still deciding it.

You didn't answer why you can't stay on as a news-and-review poster without being a forum admin.